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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life

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Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I wonder if the River who was telepathically summoned was somehow summoned from the Library's computer system or it was a version of her from later on - say after she'd been extracted from the computer and given a new body by someone, somewhere.
 
I wonder if the River who was telepathically summoned was somehow summoned from the Library's computer system or it was a version of her from later on - say after she'd been extracted from the computer and given a new body by someone, somewhere.

Has to be from the library, otherwise they should have explained how they knocked her out so she could join them in dreams.
 

TrueBlue

Member
Looking back at the theories regarding Hurt's incarnation, I remember a line that struck me all the way back from Series 5. It was in the second episode, The Beast Below, where faced with a choice that would save many but would also kill innocents, the Doctor mentions that he would have to re-name himself if he went through with it.
 
I just gotta mention... a lot of the time, River kinda gets on my nerves...

But that final scene with her and the Doctor... that was lovely and spectacular.

And sad.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Well it'll definitely have lasting ramifications, Vastra said as much. And clearly Clara was looking a little worse for wear towards the end.

I really hope they go through with this, it would be like Rory's years as a legionary amplified tenfold. Then again, my initial hope after Asylum was that the Doctor went back and rescued Dalek Clara and she became the new companion. Just rig up a holographic projector to disguise her in public places and you're set. Would've made K9 look positively quaint.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
This is now my canon.

This is my new favorite theory.


God dammit, am I really gonna have to watch The End of Time again?

iuPGsZmRpNA6o.jpg


it probably doesn't work
 

mclem

Member
That would mean we are going back to Trenzalore. Which opens other issues (kind of)

It feels like Trenzalore should never have been seen. If that was the Doctors Entire Time Line then future doctors should have been present or 11 is the Last doctor. The TARDIS is there so even if it was just 11's grave then the Tardis stays with him so she won't be seen again.

Its got problems showing his final death. The big TARDIS had a cracked window which would imply that the current TARDIS is the final iteration and the control room was clearly non functional but retained the new "desktop" so either that never changes or its 11 dies on Trenzalore.

Why would the final resting place of the doctor be so orientated towards 11?

How about:

Future Doctor knows that these events will take place - they happened to him when he was Eleven. And because he has time to define terms of his death, he explicitly sets them up in a way to avoid revealing spoilers to Eleven.
 
Have they ever said that they were going to ignore that Time Lord Logic of "12 or 13 regenerations only" limit? Cause if they bring that back up, and 11 is really the 12 regeneration, it brings about some interesting plot points.

And if you add in the regeneration he redirected to his hand in the Stolen Earth/Journey's End, then Smith is the last Doctor.
 

mclem

Member
He didn't tell her then, yes, but he has told her, hence why she knew it at the Library.
I like to believe what he actually told here was some ancient Gallifreyan that basically means "Look, this is future me telling you that if you don't trust her right now, there's one hell of a paradox about to hit. Also, count the shadows"

Rule one - the Doctor lies.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Honestly, having rewatched it again tonight, that last reveal was so damn good and there were enough other good points to the episode that I can excuse the things I did not like.
 
Didn't I read a thing within the past year that said they changed the canon so that the Doctor can regenerate an infinite amount of times? I thought they threw in a line somewhere on one of the spin-offs.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Didn't I read a thing within the past year that said they changed the canon so that the Doctor can regenerate an infinite amount of times? I thought they threw in a line somewhere on one of the spin-offs.

in Sarah Jane Adventures some kid asked him how many times he could regenerate and he said something like 580
 
He can (and will) regenerate as much as the BBC needs him/her to in order to keep printing money.

But they're gonna have to address in-continuity the idea that he's only got 13.
 
IIRC, she mentions 11 specifically. Which doesn't make sense.


I took it to mean that up until the GI entered the time stream, his future was in there. As soon as the GI entered-The Doctor didn't HAVE a future. So when Clara went in to save him, she only had to save the 11 incarnations to that point that had been tampered with.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I took it to mean that up until the GI entered the time stream, his future was in there. As soon as the GI entered-The Doctor didn't HAVE a future. So when Clara went in to save him, she only had to save the 11 incarnations to that point that had been tampered with.

This makes a shocking amount of sense.
 

Slime

Banned
I am in awe.

That reveal was chilling. I got goosebumps. That is seriously my favorite moment in all my years of watching Doctor Who.

I also love how neatly this finale seems to tie up most of the dangling threads throughout Moffat's run. I wonder if they'll ever address any of those things directly, but if not, I kind of like that you can just point to things like the TARDIS exploding and speculate that maybe that happened to prevent his "tomb" from ever ending up on Trenzalore at all.

Immensely satisfying through and through, from the glimpses of Gallifrey and past Doctors, to the big reveal at the end.

I still find much of this part of the series disappointing, but that was a perfect way to end it. Can't wait to see where we end up next.
 
I just hope there is some extra Clara material they can add to the Blu-ray release.

I liked her intro in "Asylum", really liked "Snowman" and "Bells", but was disappointed that none of the other writers seemed to know what to do with her. RTD would nearly always re-write everyone else's scripts (with a few exceptions) to make sure the Doctor and Companion were right.

We needed to know just a little bit more about Clara, for me that was the missing element in all the other recent episodes. I just re-watched "Journey into the Tardis", yesterday in preparation for watching the finale last night with kids. That would have been the perfect episode to bring in a bit more of Clara's background, but even after the re-watch the episode made little sense to me. They started a thread about Clara relationship with the Tardis with "Hide" and also foreshadowed John Hurt with the Psychic's comments about the sliver of ice in the Doctor's heart. Then at beginning of "Journey" Clara relationship with the Tardis is the starting point, but the episode seems to meander around rather meaninglessly. Perhaps my liking of "Doctor's Wife" episode set my expectations too high for this one.

The Tardis is obviously guiding Clara to safety through the various rooms, it is no coincidence that see reads the Time War book, clearly another hint to John Hurt and 50th special. But without a dialogue between Clara and the Tardis she is just a leaf being blown by the wind. Then time is re-written sort of erasing the elements of this episode, but clearly not as "Big Bang" shows that stuff that happens within the Tardis can survive time being re-written. So Clara does know the Doctor's name. So I guess River is really gone, and Clara will need to remember it for the 50th. The Tardis thinks it is import that Clara know this info. But all that being said, Clara character is the one the suffers in all this, if you are not in control of your actions and just a cipher then you don't make a very interesting character.

I guess the Clara relationship with Tardis theme has a bit more to go, as shown in "Name" Clara makes sure the Doctor picks the right Tardis. Essentially confirming what is said in the "Doctor's Wife", that the Tardis chose him, by using Clara as a proxy, she obviously know which is the right Tardis.
 

Tizoc

Member
Now that I think about it, the John Hurt 'Doctor' would have been either inbetween 8 and 9 OR between 2 and 3. In fact I'm gonna go with the latter since it'd explain the transition from 2 to 3 @3@
BTW, would this mean that the 'Shalka Doctor' is canon?
 
Now that I think about it, the John Hurt 'Doctor' would have been either inbetween 8 and 9 OR between 2 and 3. In fact I'm gonna go with the latter since it'd explain the transition from 2 to 3 @3@
BTW, would this mean that the 'Shalka Doctor' is canon?

No... why would it? Unless the Great Intelligence in one possible timeline usurped The Doctor's body...?
 

Zeppu

Member
Just a little thought which I'm sure you've all covered already.

The reason why Clara found the Doctor's name in the Time War book is because that incarnation of the Doctor had been 'disowned' so all references to him within the book were by his proper name rather than 'the Doctor'.

His proper name refers to any of his incarnations irrespective of the name he had chosen.

Also I don't think the woman at The End of Time was Clara because the Doctor obviously recognized her and it took him until the last episode to understand who Clara was.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I am in awe.

That reveal was chilling. I got goosebumps. That is seriously my favorite moment in all my years of watching Doctor Who.

I also love how neatly this finale seems to tie up most of the dangling threads throughout Moffat's run. I wonder if they'll ever address any of those things directly, but if not, I kind of like that you can just point to things like the TARDIS exploding and speculate that maybe that happened to prevent his "tomb" from ever ending up on Trenzalore at all.

Immensely satisfying through and through, from the glimpses of Gallifrey and past Doctors, to the big reveal at the end.

I still find much of this part of the series disappointing, but that was a perfect way to end it. Can't wait to see where we end up next.

Sorry, what reveal? Clara's purpose?
 

Boem

Member
Sorry, what reveal? Clara's purpose?

I'm guessing he means John Hurt. It was chilling for me at least. I've been avoiding spoilers (I'll ever understand why people feel the need to have everything spelled out for them before the thing even airs), and the idea of a secret new/inbetween/earlier Doctor was incredibly exciting to me.
 
For me, having guessed that the reveal was going to be Hurt or Tennant based on spoilers, what knocked me over was more the delivery of his line and the content of it. The second I saw that silhouette I knew it was him, not Tennant, and then what he said and the way he said it knocked me flat. Brilliant ending.

Episode itself has its problems, but that ending is something else.
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
I had no idea John Hurt was coming so yeah for me it was an amazing reveal, but I wish they'd done something to spell out the purpose of him being there (ie, a preview of November, or a monologue or something), I basically had no idea what had happened until I came into this thread.
 
Well the script for the 50th must be great fun to read. Bits like "THE DOCTOR runs past THE DOCTOR to reach THE DOCTOR" or all three actors reading out each line at the read through...


yes i know they can easily work their way round that but it's a funny image
 
I didn't really know much about Hurt joining, so the reveal, and the delivery, was fantastic.

I do have a few niggles about the episode , but on the whole I really enjoyed it.
I'm a bit confused about River's timeline though. Am I correct in saying we don't know how she knows the Doctor's name?
 
I didn't really know much about Hurt joining, so the reveal, and the delivery, was fantastic.

I do have a few niggles about the episode , but on the whole I really enjoyed it.
I'm a bit confused about River's timeline though. Am I correct in saying we don't know how she knows the Doctor's name?

You're correct. I don't think we ever will, to be honest - I reckon this is it for her now, the inevitable flood of audios and novels in a decade aside.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
I never read any Doctor Who novel or listened to any of the audio dramas, but I've been growing curious about them because a lot of the concepts, locales and relationships the series tries to juggle with feel like they could to be fully realized in those types of media.
 
I never read any Doctor Who novel or listened to any of the audio dramas, but I've been growing curious about them because a lot of the concepts, locales and relationships the series tries to juggle with feel like they could to be fully realized in those types of media.

One thing they can do with these audios is do stuff the BBC themselves wouldn't do in case it upset kids. There's a bit more death and destruction, more adult themes handled more fully very often and so on. It's a slightly more adult take on Doctor Who, I suppose, much like the Virgin New Adventures books that were published while the show was off the air. This sort of stuff is limited to the first 8 Doctors, though, as the license distinguishes and splits between old and new Who.

I think they're a really fantastic 'form' of the show. The books are alright as well, but are I think a bit more hit and miss. I usually listen to the audios when doing household chores and stuff - washing the car, dishes, mowing the lawn etc. Good way to pass the time.

For audios, check out Dark Eyes. It's a wonderful place to start. Features the eighth Doctor engaged in a war between the Time Lords and Daleks (though not THAT war), the introduction of a new companion, him ditching his old costume for something more Eccleston-like, and a variety of time periods including an alien planet where the people have grown to worship the Daleks as benevolent gods. There's also lots of Time Lord meddling, with one Time Lord in particular played by the same guy who did the Dream Lord.

It's really very good. It's written by Nick Briggs, voice of the Daleks/Cybermen/Judoon/Ice Warriors/oh god everything in New Who (also doing the Dalek voices here), a man who is soaked in Who lore knowledge as much as Moffat or RTD.

Alternatively - as Dark Eyes is pretty expensive right now - you could jump on board with Blood of the Daleks. This was the first sort of audios post new-Who - so features a new companion out of the 'Rose' cast played by the brilliant Sheridan Smith. These pair continue for four 8-part series' and two final special episodes, which then segway into Dark Eyes, which is like an RTD-to-Moffat sort of transition, I suppose. Many of the people behind it are the same, but there's a tonal shift for Dark Eyes.

Books, you could look into the Virgin New Adventures. Seventh Doctor books published when the show was off air. A lot of New Who stuff began life here; RTD's contribution features a Tyler family living on a council estate, for instance. Human Nature is a NSA novel. There's even one novel (not by Moffat - he never did one - said it felt a bit too geeky, which famously pissed some of the writers off) where the Doctor's tomb is the TARDIS, which has begun to leak and grow bigger on the outside because it's dying... so I think Moffat read that book, once upon a time.

There's the New Who books as well, but I think they're all pretty much a bit too broad in focus/scope. They're kid/teenager friendly, but a bit too much. I've read a few, but they are simple - think the first couple of Potter books before JK realized she had an adult audience as well, for instance. I think they would've been better off doing two distinct ranges, but RTD apparently didn't want that. They're good, but just a bit slashy and simple, but Doctor Who itself is that a lot of the time... it's just different to the often very complex NSA novels that imo are an interesting 'more adult' companion to the main show. The New Series books just play by the post-2005 rules. They've started putting out ones from more adult writers in more adult covers under Moffat, but I don't really think they're much different, tonally, from the kid-friendly cover ones.
 
You have to be selective with the new series books. There's a lot of chaff, but the best of the books are absolutely knockout.
Grab yourself...
Only Human
The Story of Martha
Beautiful Chaos
The Doctor Trap
Touched by an Angel
Borrowed Time
The Eyeless
Forever Autumn
Wishing Well
 

judhudson

Member
Stupid question...I know they came out as being fake, but did anyone save the written stuff from the Whistleblower's blog, to go back and compare what they got right/didn't get right?
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
Stupid question...I know they came out as being fake, but did anyone save the written stuff from the Whistleblower's blog, to go back and compare what they got right/didn't get right?

You might be able to find quotes somewhere, I don't think anyone posted them on here though, just links and random points of discussion on it. We had already had what turned out to be the real spoilers by then though, and some of what whoever it was that posted was more personal and private stuff that we would never know if it was true or not.
 
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