King of the Potato People
Member
I enjoyed Rose's finale (well kinda Doomsday) more to be honest, but that was a decent end to two of the best companions.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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Thanks for all of the answers guys!
Most of them were answered above, but for your final question, I thought the point of the Angels was that in their stone form nothing could break or kill them.
Very true.
Most of them were answered above, but for your final question, I thought the point of the Angels was that in their stone form nothing could break or kill them.
Very true.
Didn't it say they never saw/would see the Doctor again? As soon as he read that final page, that was it.
The Elite
BOSS
After the book is written, anything is possible. Up to that point the afterward was written they never saw The Doctor. Beyond that, he could have visited. Met them in London if New York was too dangerous.
I don't think the page said they would never see the Doctor again. It said something like "You probably won't want to visit New York for awhile" which implies that he MAY be able to visit them. Moffat leaving it open I suppose.
APZonerunner
Member
The whole can't return thing is weird, and will probably never get a full explanation - see Dalek Caan pulling Davros out of and the Time Lords weaselling their way out of the "locked" Time War, and specifically in the case of Amy, the whole of The Girl Who Waited, where knowing her own future forced her to change it. I don't think there really are any rules, just what works at the time.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I'll have a continuing nervousness that they'll ruin this ending later on like they did with Rose's exit.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I think if the Doctor DID visit them, he'd fuck up the pre-established dates of death. And then New York would probably explode under time duress
But aren't they trapped in the building full of Angels? Since Rory died there without seeing Amy again that's my best bet. But then, wasn't that whole paradox erased? I dunno. I get why the TARDIS can't go anywhere near there but apart from that I have no clue.
The fact that we knew that this was their last episode took some of the surprise out of it. I would love them to kill/remove a companion or reveal a new Doctor (without it being said whether the actor is signed for a new season or not) without telling anyone at all, it would be great. When David Tennant started regenerating in the penultimate episode of the 4th series, everyone was abuzz about whether he was actually dying and who would replace him. Keeping it secret would be difficult, but the payoff would be fantastic.
The Elite
BOSS
You can look to The Girl in the Fireplace for some understanding. After reading the letter about her death, he can never go back to the period between last telling her to wait and when he reads the letter because the letter says he never went back.
However, in this case, there is room for The Doctor to go back.
Incendiary
Banned
it's a fixed point in time, things had to happen as they were in the book. That's my basic explanation anyway.
Ah, yeah, I forgot about the fixed point in time stuff. I guess I'll accept that, although it's still weird he can't come pick them up a few years later when it's no longer fixed...unless because he's seen their death/gravestone that means they have to stay in New York and their deaths are fixed. That's what I'll stick with.
I was hoping the Angel of Liberty would fit more into the Angel's plan/the main plot. As it stands, it was basically "Hey, this episode's going to take place in Manhattan. You know what would be cool? Having an Angel as the Statue of Liberty!" It didn't really impact the episode. Maybe if there had been a throwaway line like "they're using the hotel to power the Angel of Liberty to destroy the universe."
King of the Potato People
Member
Amy can get ganger Rory to live with in those remaining years.
Dr Zhivago
Member
Err, where? Can't see any answers to the main question of why the Doctor couldn't visit them somewhere other than New York '38.
Time travel used to be left rather vague & hand-wavy, and I think Moffat's decision to make it more front-and-centre can be an issue because you can't really do it justice in a family show.
But aren't they trapped in the building full of Angels? Since Rory died there without seeing Amy again that's my best bet. But then, wasn't that whole paradox erased? I dunno. I get why the TARDIS can't go anywhere near there but apart from that I have no clue.
No, because apparently the building never existed.
Hot Coldman
Banned
River had already written that that was Amy's last farewell. That's close enough.
Well, no one has come to a distinct consensus, but people have tried to answer it above your original post.
Again, that's Moffat making it seem final without fully committing in order for it to be left open for future episodes.
Yea that's what I thought, erased paradox.
Explains why the Doctor freaked out when he saw the final chapter title. You don't see someone again after a last farewell. At least you don't normally.Green Scar said:
What did you not like about it?
LOL. Dude that has some of the best eps of Who under his belt is killing Who? That's makes no sense.
The Elite
BOSS
The how does River know for sure? She would have to know that The Doctor never travels back to visit her from the present to the point of everyone involved being dead. River only knows up until the point she writes the chapter heading. Beyond that, anything is still possible.
Dr Zhivago
Member
I preferred Rory & Amy's 'exit' in The God Complex, to be honest.
And why should reading a book set events in stone? What if the book was fiction, or part-fiction? FRIDGE LOGIC.
And why should reading a book set events in stone? What if the book was fiction, or part-fiction? FRIDGE LOGIC.
Incendiary
Banned
Uh....what? That episode was amazing. I thought that was one of the better send-offs...way better than Donna and Martha's at any rate.
Wait...what? River wrote the book, meaning it was non-fiction. And seeing as how it had been correct in every parallel event that happened as they were reading, it was definitely accurate.
The Elite
BOSS
But it wasn't fiction and events quickly prove that. I'm saying, anything beyond the chapters of the book is completely open though.
Amy wrote the book, River got it published (I think). I guess anytime after it was published could be where the Doctor goes back but then things would get wibbly wobbly.
bobs...onGaf
Member
Wait what did they do to Rose?
Loved that episode - the graveyard scene in the end felt a bit strange, I see why it was necessary - but I feel as though they could have given Amy her farewell on top of the building.
I also feel like they could have done something stronger regarding the Angels - rather than wiping the majority of them from existence I think I would have preferred if they simply broke the time lock around that building - and the Angels had to move on - seems a bit strange to just paradox them out of existence.
Also poor Rory's dad
- he didnt even get a segment.Hot Coldman
Banned
Doesn't matter, her dumb ass wrote it anyway! :lol
Yeah it's left open, but the Doctor wouldn't freak the fuck out twice if he didn't know it was a done deal... for now. Personally, I hope they never come back. Actually, I was kinda hoping them throwing themselves off the Quay was the end of it, but I'm a masochist apparently.
Another thing I thought was odd was them traveling back to 2012 from the "present" timeline of the 2020's (which was implied in The Power of Three) Like, what changed in New York between 2012 and the 2020's that you had to travel back in time in-universe wise?
lol that would've been incredibly dark
lol that would've been incredibly dark
The Elite
BOSS
That wouldn't be wibbly wobbly at all. Anything after the books is written is fair game. If Amy and Rory decide to take a trip to post WWII London in the summer of 1946 (or post whenever the book was written) and The Doctor happens to be traveling with Oswin at that time, they could theoretically bump into each other without the universe blowing up. There is no paradox there. Nothing was written that contradicts that either.
Edit: Unless the book was written close to Amy's death, which they should have established, then it would make sense that she didn't see him after writing that ending.
Felt involuntary emotional reaction with some of the last parts, whilst normally with fiction I have to mull it over and "marvel" for lack of a better word at the concepts shown to get it to hit home, not have it happen instantaneously.
edit: here's some very appropriate Doctor Who music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No2qsjun4Kg&t=1m47s
edit: here's some very appropriate Doctor Who music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No2qsjun4Kg&t=1m47s
King of the Potato People
Member
RTD: "Steven, I know I don't work there anymore... but WHAT IF THE STATUE OF LIBERTY (!) was a Weeping Angel?"
The Elite
BOSS
Edit: For the new page, because I hate page endings.
So, what was the publish date for the book?
Hot Coldman
Banned
Dr Zhivago
Member
But it's just a book. What if the publishers decided to rewrite the ending to make it more exciting? Sorry, the more I think about this, the weaker it seems.
Also, bit strange we didn't get to see Rory & Amy living in 1938
unless it gets undone for the Anniversary show.
bobs...onGaf
Member
She did say something like "we lived good lives" - so they alluded to it.
It depends how far back the last Angel put them both. We know the date of the book so it can't have been before then. We also don't know when they died, since the grave only has their ages.
I can imagine RTD spinning around going 'FANTASTIC!' while Moffat sprouts time travel and paradox details in the corner trying to get everything to work.
King of the Potato People
Member
I liked the part where an angel put on a troll face.
Incendiary
Banned
I believe it was implied that River wrote the book and Amy wrote the Afterword.
It is.
It was. River said she'd have to get the book to Amy so Amy could get it published, and that she'd get her to write an afterword.
Which means River at least sees them again. Or sends them mail.
Do we know when and where the Pond's ended up? Was it still NY during the same time period? Going by the type writer I would say yes, but then why can River visit and not the Doctor (Assuming River visited instead of finding another way to get Amy to write the Afterword)?
River wouldn't let them, I guess. And I doubt they'd exactly be able to get one over on her either.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
They brought her back.
Because River has a motorbike but The Doctor gets stuck in traffic
And gave her her own personal Doctor, I hated that. Doomsday was a perfect sendoff, only to be spoiled like that. Hopefully the same doesn't happen here.
Lol, that explains why the TARDIS can't get there, but is there any reason he can't just use River's vortex manipulator?Because River has a motorbike but The Doctor gets stuck in traffic
TBH, I can't seeing this being it for the Pond's, it's been left so nicely open for the future. Unless there's some sort of concrete reason as to why he can't visit at some point. Plus, the grave says 'Williams'. Considering even River's name is Pond, that strikes me as quite odd.
I can see River popping up once or twice a season for a few years, Jack style. At least until Moffat moves on, I'd say. Hopefully she does, she's great when she's not the focus of an ep/arc.
APZonerunner
Member
50% of that was very likely forward-thinking ass-covering in case an aged Tennant shows up later on, mind. Not that I'm arguing with how Journey's End sours Doomsday - though the what happens there is also sad, just in a different way. Imagine being him, and letting her go for a replica of yourself!
This particular one I hope they never undo now. It's beautifully circular and final as it is, and Amy and Rory live on, in a sense, through River. I wonder how long she'll continue to swing in and out for!
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