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[Aizo]

A lot of women in pornography are treated horribly. They are abused sexually and physically, tricked into signing contracts, and are subsequently threatened with violence or lawsuits to force them into being in porn, and women are sometimes even gang-raped on camera. (source: Japan Times article. See edit 2)

Many animals have horrible living conditions, and learning about how slaughterhouses work have turned many into vegetarians. Many even decline viewing these documentaries because they worry about the guilt they may feel.

Computers, cellphones, and even game consoles have parts that are created through child labor, though this is a subject I am just learning more about through this thread.

Does knowing the information above interfere with your enjoyment of porn, processed meat, or electronics? How so?

I am, for example, guilty of using technology that may have been produced through means I would not be okay with, but it's not something I know a lot about. It makes me feel uncomfortable, and I'd like to learn more about it. I eat meat rarely, and I feel bad that it's not always meat that comes from a good environment. I hope that me eating less meat helps, but I could do more. I feel bad most of the time when I eat meat, though.

Edit: Please read this quote and italicized bit.

I eat meat and have processed it myself. When I was younger, I working in chicken houses. There's no cognitive dissonance. I know exactly how it works. They are animals, humans evolved to eat them. We are an intelligent species because we eat them.

Regarding porn, if it appears at all as if the woman isn't enjoying herself I can't enjoy it. To me, sex is more about giving than taking, though...

This would be an example of a nice reply. This user mentioned how they feel about it and why eating meat doesn't bother them. Perfect! I am just looking for opinions, but some of are you are getting so defensive. I am not calling you out, saying that eating meat is wrong, or that watching porn is wrong. I am merely asking if you're educated on the respective productions and how you feel.

Edit 2: I cut the original post to make what I'm asking a bit more concise. The OP has been re-posted here.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I consume both the same way: Homemade.

 

[blame space]

Yeah, one does.

 

[UraMallas]

Yeah, one does.

Indubitably.

 

[GorillaJu]

The reason people around you don't want to talk about porn is probably because they haven't put a minute of their life into researching the porn industry and don't want to be hit by a rhetorical barrage from someone who is intent on showing that they do something morally depraved every day.

 

[Johndoey]

Totally brotilly.

 

[McDougles]

I am of the mind that there are way too many ways that developed countries use and abuse the conventions of morality, humanity or general decency ethics that it's too hypocritical to be sanctimonious about anything.

It's hard to berate someone for watching Japanese pornography while wearing clothes and using technology made by people undergoing human rights atrocities to produce them for you. Just like you can't berate someone for not buying everything local (including clothing and basic necessities) when the car you drive and the power/heating you use are destroying the planet.

Try to be the best person that you can and treat others like you wish to be treated. Nobody is completely scot-free in making things worse for somebody in the long run.

 

[Aizo]

I am not telling you to change your life or feel guilty. I have, since learning a lot more about it in the past two years, severely decreased the amount of meat that I eat. I feel guilty that I still have the rare meat dish, but I don't imagine that I'd ever become a true vegetarian. Porn, however, is something that I do not indulge in. It makes me feel far too uncomfortable.

I consume both the same way: Homemade.

Oh! That is something that I wanted to mention. If your significant other was comfortable with you having pictures/footage of them, I can't imagine many people would find much wrong with this. I surely don't see a problem.

You hunt/farm all of the meat you consume? That's admirable. Although it's obviously sad to kill animals, it's natural that many creatures on this planet kill and eat their prey. The issues comes from mass production.

 

[blame space]

I think it's time to move past all the first two ignorance agnotistic theories of our time, personally..

 

[radios shipping overview]

You can be an ethical consumer of either.

Of course, that involves actually paying for porn and paying for meat that comes from a source you know and trust, and a lot of people can't be bothered with either.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Aizo, you are WAY too idealistic.

The world isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it out to be.

 

[SapientWolf]

What about the third option? The educated but uncaring hedonist that knows he's in the wrong to some degree? Or the fourth option? The educated consumer that avoids the immoral options?

But the title would have been too long, yeah.

 

[Man God]

You can't live without harming another living being. How you deal with that fact is, well, how you deal with it. You can justify it any number of ways.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Meat: Yes I've read/watched several things revolving around chicken, beef, fish etc. I tried to avoid milk in particular for a year or so recently due to finding out that some cows are milked to the point of blood/pus drawing. I am not a vegetarian and mostly focus my efforts toward buying animal-friendly products when I can and making sure that others are educated enough to then go on to make their own decisions regarding how they'd like to eat. I like meat and live with eating it mostly by focusing on controlling my own intake rather than outright cutting it out.

Porn: Yes I'm very aware of some of the various levels of hell pornstars are put through. Since my fetishes revolve around text and let's call it "2D", I don't have what I'd consider a major hand in contributing to the industry. I feel porn as an industry would be a lot better with a highly reduced amount of stigma but it's something that has to change in our "Christian values" based society.

 

[Saucy_XL]

How can you enjoy life while millions of people are starving/getting killed/raped/etc etc. Same principle.

 

[Captain Pants]

I feel like morality doesn't enter into it when it comes to food. When I watch a nature documentary, I don't feel that a predator is wrong for eating its prey. I think that as sentient beings it is on us to slaughter animals as humanely as possible, but I don't think it is inherently wrong to eat meat.

 

[CreepingFear]

You can't live without harming another living being. How you deal with that fact is, well, how you deal with it. You can justify it any number of ways.

I deal with it by drinking alcohol.

 

[Jebusman]

Since my fetishes revolve around text and let's call it "2D",

Hentai confirmed for most morally correct pornography.

 

[Wildschwein]

Seeing that even the tiniest portion of this moral conundrum can be solved with watching amateur porn brightened my day.

 

[ElFly]

You realize that you are posting on the internet using a computer or smartphone which is prolly made using metals from conflict zones.

Etc etc clothes blah child labor etc etc.


edit: the porn part is easily solved by NOT PAYING FOR PORN. Do you pay for porn?

 

[Aizo]

Yeah, one does.

Yo, don't blame me for the lack of a commonly used gender-neutral pronoun in English. Using "he" doesn't feel right, and using "one" makes people think you're pretentious. Using the royal "you" could potentially confuse lots of people with consecutive use. Bah.

Indubitably.

Totally brotilly.

These responses are unfortunate. Especially unfortunate to see you start this off, blame space, because I typically really love your posts.

Aizo, you are WAY too idealistic.
The world isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it out to be.

I don't believe that I am trying to make it black and white. I talked about my feelings, the feelings of those I talk with on the topics, and then I asked for the opinions of the members of Neogaf. I am not in charge of what is right or wrong, and so I'm asking how others perceive the acts of eating meat and watching porn. If I didn't make it clear that I'm not here to judge, I should reiterate that I'm not a vegetarian. I don't think I'm really doing the best I could in that area, so I'm flawed. I don't watch porn, because it makes me uncomfortable. I didn't call those who do watch it depraved or anything. Just looking for opinions so that I can understand others' thoughts on these topics.

What about the third option? The educated but uncaring hedonist that knows he's in the wrong to some degree? Or the fourth option? The educated consumer that avoids the immoral options?

But the title would have been too long, yeah.

Did you read the whole thing? I'm part of another option. I am educated on where meat comes from, but haven't completely stopped eating it. I feel guilty, though.

 

[JDB]

Requires it for just about anything. I've never really bothered to look into how the stuff I use is made because probably anything in life has some fucked up shit behind the scenes so I'd rather just not know the specifics.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Hentai confirmed for most morally correct pornography.

I'm sure Jesus would prefer hentai to porn

 

[chronos86]

You realize that you are posting on the internet using a computer or smartphone which is prolly made using metals from conflict zones.

Etc etc clothes blah child labor etc etc.

Yeah I was just about to post something like this.

 

[JasonUresti]

What do you know about the supply and manufacturing chain of the device you posted this from? About the history of animal testing with products you might use every day? About medical advances that can now save lives but were obtained in completely unethical ways?

People (you, me, everyone that will post in this thread) will generally only care about larger, more abstract issues like these only up to the point that it inconvienences them.

You can best answer this question by asking it of yourself. Find the (inevitable) product or service you consume that is produced or originated through morally questionable means. Ask yourself why you keep using it. Even if you make the choice to eliminate that one from your life, there will be another, and another, and another. Eventually you will find one you wont be willing to give up, and then the reasons you give yourself will be (in broad terms) the truth you are looking for.

 

[Wildschwein]

Yeah I was just about post something like this.

Porn, like most web based services, is largely funded by advertising. Its hard to be entirely separated from this unless you're incredibly aggressive on your adblocking.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I think everyone at some point should witness the meat making process and even participate if possible. Something very amazing about being there to kill game, skin it, clean it, etc all the way until it's in your stomach. Makes one really appreciate the times we live in.

As far as porn: Either they are adults making a choice or theyre not. Should I feel guilty if someone is in a situation I'm not in and takes a job they're not crazy about? No.

Too many people out there making porn for free cause they wanna. Or animated. Or written.

 

[John Kowalski]

I eat meat. Very little, but here and there i will a burger or a steak or rotisserie chicken. I try to minimize my consumption of it... though i do feel guilt for not abandoning it completely, hopefully in time i will.

I don't pay for pornography, though i consume erotica. Some with real life actors (mostly soft stuff), some drawn. I don't really feel bad about it.

 

[Vaporak]

Of course not OP, one could be fully aware of what is going on but not consider it immoral.

 

[Sub_Level]

I think everyone at some point should witness the meat making process and even participate if possible. Something very amazing about being there to kill game, skin it, clean it, etc all the way until it's in your stomach. Makes one really appreciate the times we live in.

Would be great for a high school field trip.

 

[Aizo]

I feel like morality doesn't enter into it when it comes to food. When I watch a nature documentary, I don't feel that a predator is wrong for eating its prey. I think that as sentient beings it is on us to slaughter animals as humanely as possible, but I don't think it is inherently wrong to eat meat.

Right. It's more about eating meat that has been produced through unjust means.

Seeing that even the tiniest portion of this moral conundrum can be solved with watching amateur porn brightened my day.

You may have your day un-brightened by watching the documentary "Hot Girls Wanted."

You realize that you are posting on the internet using a computer or smartphone which is prolly made using metals from conflict zones.

Etc etc clothes blah child labor etc etc.
edit: the porn part is easily solved by NOT PAYING FOR PORN. Do you pay for porn?

Right, this discussion is about all that. How does one deal with knowing that they are contributing to making others' lives horrible? Do I become educated, attempt to find ways of doing things that don't harm people, or do I avoid information that could make me feel bad about contributing?
I'm not sure if the edit was directed at me, but I don't watch porn.

 

[RecRoulette]

Naaaaaah.

Posting from my iPhone.

Edit: To be more clear, I don't really plug my ears and go "lalalalala" when someone tries to educate me on stuff like that, but it's probably not going to change my mind unless it's extremely drastic.

 

[Bizazedo]

Right. It's more about eating meat that has been produced through unjust means.

Some don't feel the same. That's the answer. It's not complicated, people just disagree with your ideology.

The real question should be do people, including yourself, ever question your ideology to see if maybe you're wrong?

Not many do on either side.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

It's a sad fact, but I believe it to be impossible to go through life while taking everyone else's situations into account 100% of the time. We're individual people, and at the end of the day, our own needs and wants are a priority. Those at the ones at the forefront of our minds. Now, that's not to say that we don't care for others and won't help them when we can. But it's just unrealistic to think that everything you do isn't gonna have some kind of impact on someone else's life. Do I stop using my phone, knowing full well that some poor child in China made it? No. I know full well that there are children working ungodly hours in an assembly line so that I can text and tweet to my heart's desire. It's not fair. I know full well that it's cruel and it breaks my heart. But I cannot go and rescue every single one of them. Eating meat is the same way. I love animals, but I understand that protein and meats are a vital part to a healthy diet. It's just how it is.

As for porn, the adults doing it know full well what they're signing up for. And if they don't, then that's another matter entirely and should be addressed by the proper authorities.

 

[Nostremitus]

I eat meat and have processed it myself. When I was younger, I working in chicken houses. There's no cognitive dissonance. I know exactly how it works. They are animals, humans evolved to eat them. We are an intelligent species because we eat them.


Regarding porn, if it appears at all as if the woman isn't enjoying herself I can't enjoy it. To me, sex is more about giving than taking, though...

 

[bobbychalkers]

If your living in a well off western country, your livelihood was historically built off the backs of subjugated people. Your electronics, clothes and a lot of the other things you interact with daily likely involve conflict somewhere down the line.

Spoiler

I need some alcohol

 

[Aizo]

What do you know about the supply and manufacturing chain of the device you posted this from? About the history of animal testing with products you might use every day? About medical advances that can now save lives but were obtained in completely unethical ways?

People (you, me, everyone that will post in this thread) will generally only care about larger, more abstract issues like these only up to the point that it inconvienences them.

You can best answer this question by asking it of yourself. Find the (inevitable) product or service you consume that is produced or originated through morally questionable means. Ask yourself why you keep using it. Even if you make the choice to eliminate that one from your life, there will be another, and another, and another. Eventually you will find one you wont be willing to give up, and then the reasons you give yourself will be (in broad terms) the truth you are looking for.

I suppose this is the post that I'm looking for. Interesting things to think about.

snip

As far as porn: Either they are adults making a choice or theyre not. Should I feel guilty if someone is in a situation I'm not in and takes a job they're not crazy about? No.

I mentioned and posted an article that talks about how many are threatened into signing or staying on contract to do porn, so this is not always true.

Of course not OP, one could be fully aware of what is going on but not consider it immoral.

Right, so what I'm looking for is what your thoughts are, then.

 

[duckroll]

Why just meat and pornography? Smartphones? Branded sports shoes? Financial investments? Dragon Quest soundtracks? EA games? We live in a world where most of the luxuries of society are literally built on exploitation in one way or another, or good entertainment is made by scumbags.

 

[tokkun]

Well, I think that from a dispassionate viewpoint, there is really no reason for humans to feel sympathy for the way a chicken is treated. Most people can't help themselves, because they tend to anthropomorphize animals and so they project values about how humans should be treated onto them. As a society, we see this as a good thing because subconsciously we're thinking "well if this person can feel sympathy for an animal, then they can probably feel empathy towards human beings" and valuing empathy toward other humans is the part that it is rational to value. When kids pull the legs off spiders it doesn't horrify us because we think that spiders deserve human rights, it horrifies us because we worry that they are a sociopath with a broken empathy system.

Now, if you accept that feeling sympathy toward a chicken can be both natural and healthy but simultaneously irrational, then it makes sense to intentionally shield yourself from information about chickens being harmed. This allows me to enjoy eating the meat without suffering from unwarranted guilt. The proper cure would be to learn to not anthropomorphize the chicken, but I think that's hard for a lot of people to do unless they grow up on a farm.

 

[Goldenroad]

Why just meat and pornography? Smartphones? Branded sports shoes? Financial investments? Dragon Quest soundtracks? EA games? We live in a world where most of the luxuries of society are literally built on exploitation in one way or another, or good entertainment is made by scumbags.

Well put. The very video game consoles this website celebrates are built upon the sweat of exploited workers. Western civilization is fucked, but we might as well make the most of it before it crumbles.

 

[ZoronMaro]

If you try to be the perfect humanitarian in every little way you'll have a hard time keeping your peace of mind. You have to choose what issues you care about, or you can be a dirtbag and not pick any.

Eating meat doesn't really bother me, I always hear my vegetarian friends out, but none of the studies I've read on animal intelligence have changed my mind. I jerk it to Venn diagrams though cause porn for weak minded people with no imagination.

 

[John Kowalski]

The best solution i've found is to give meaning to these actions in such a way that the ethical concerns of purchasing these services or goods can be mitigated. A mixture of diminished consumerism and maximization of value. I think that can dissuade the dissonance. Optimally, we are uniquely positioned to impart positive change to those we see suffering, and we should at least ensure that we manifest that privilege for the benefit of one disprivileged demographic, hopefully doing enough good that the balance continuously tips towards positive change even as these less positive things continue to take place.

 

[Aizo]

Some don't feel the same. That's the answer. It's not complicated, people just disagree with your ideology.

The real question should be do people, including yourself, ever question your ideology to see if maybe you're wrong?

Not many do on either side.

What's my ideology? Feeling that meat processing is unjust? Do many argue that it is totally okay? If you read the whole OP, I mention that I eat meat. I am asking what others feel about it. I don't think there are wrong answers, apart from drive-by posts.

It's a sad fact, but I believe it to be impossible to go through life while taking everyone else's situations into account 100% of the time. We're individual people, and at the end of the day, our own needs and wants are a priority. Those at the ones at the forefront of our minds. Now, that's not to say that we don't care for others and won't help them when we can. But it's just unrealistic to think that everything you do isn't gonna have some kind of impact on someone else's life. Do I stop using my phone, knowing full well that some poor child in China made it? No. I know full well that there are children working ungodly hours in an assembly line so that I can text and tweet to my heart's desire. It's not fair. I know full well that it's cruel and it breaks my heart. But I cannot go and rescue every single one of them. Eating meat is the same way. I love animals, but I understand that protein and meats are a vital part to a healthy diet. It's just how it is.

As for porn, the adults doing it know full well what they're signing up for. And if they don't, then that's another matter entirely and should be addressed by the proper authorities.

Yeah, this is really true. We can't take every single problem into account.

I eat meat and have processed it myself. When I was younger, I working in chicken houses. There's no cognitive dissonance. I know exactly how it works. They are animals, humans evolved to eat them. We are an intelligent species because we eat them.

Regarding porn, if it appears at all as if the woman isn't enjoying herself I can't enjoy it. To me, sex is more about giving than taking, though...

This would be an example of a nice reply. This user mentioned how they feel about it and why eating meat doesn't bother them. Perfect! I am just looking for opinions, but some of are you are getting so defensive. I am not calling you out, saying that eating meat is wrong, or that watching porn is wrong. I am merely asking if you're educated on the respective productions and how you feel.

 

[CLEEK]

I consume both the same way: Homemade.

Amateur cannibalism porn?

 

[Surface of Me]

Meat is something that Ill just never want to give up. In perfectly fine with my want if it overpowering the bad things I feel for the farm animals.

I have lowered my consumption of porn heavily though, for my own health and the learning if the inner workings of the industry.

 

[Aizo]

Why just meat and pornography? Smartphones? Branded sports shoes? Financial investments? Dragon Quest soundtracks? EA games? We live in a world where most of the luxuries of society are literally built on exploitation in one way or another, or good entertainment is made by scumbags.

I couldn't type anything more into the title, or else I'd include more. I edited the OP, adding a new, highlighted portion, in addition to a quote with the kind of response I'm looking for, and an italicized bit explaining that.

If you feel that there would be a more appropriate title for the thread that would better detail the sort of discussion I'm trying to have, would you please change it? I'm really just looking for opinions on enjoying things that may have been produced through means that harmed others and how people deal with their feelings about them. Many people are taking it as an attack, or saying that I'm not seeing all the things I enjoy at the expense of others, but this is not the discussion I was hoping to have. I do not think anyone is wrong for eating meat or watching porn, but I do want to know how they feel about doing those things.

 

[Ryaaan14]

Culture is a p bizarre thing if u really think about it

 

[duckroll]

Well put. The very video game consoles this website celebrates are built upon the sweat of exploited workers. Western civilization is fucked, but we might as well make the most of it before it crumbles.

It's hardly just western civilization. Any developed nation will take advantage of less developed nations for economic advantage. It's good to recognize that and understand it, but other than making person decisions on what services to use it's not really possible for individuals to make an overall difference. It's just how it is.

No matter where you live, if you're in a developed country with good transportation infrastructure and skyscrapers, ask yourself - who actually built those? Was it local construction crew paid a fair rate, or was it mostly foreign workers attracted to the country because they are willing to do a harsher job for less pay than anyone locally would? Are the working conditions what you would consider comfortable? How do we reconcile that?

 

[YoungFa]

People just compartmentalize.

 

[Raonak]

The benefits of porn and meat greatly overcome the bad aspects.

Plus, i think technology will overcome the morality issues.
From hyper-realistic CG porn which won't require any actors. and synthetic lab-grown meat that taste even better than real meat.