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[Freshmaker]

Then there's the much more important question: Why would Ultimecia want to go back in the past in the first place? To save or be with Squall!

What do you think, gaf? We'll likely never settle this debate, but fuck it's always fun to hear what others think.

Just going on what she says in her speech before the assassination attempt by Squall's team, and the interrogation that follows, she doesn't understand why Squall wants to kill her, and is pissed at SeeD for imprisoning her for a crime she will commit at some point in the future. (Which is ironic since SeeD's actions to contain her drive her to attempt to destroy time since she views it as her enemy moreso than Squall.)

I think the reason she knows about Griever is because she's known almost all her life that Squall will kill her and save the world in the process. Knowing that someone will eventually kill you for a crime you had no intention of committing is an excellent reason to obsess over that person.

It also seemed to me that there was a good chance she was related to Squall and Riona, (great great great grand daughter or something) but there's little supporting evidence for that.

 

[Zoe]

It also seemed to me that there was a good chance she was related to Squall and Riona, (great great great grand daughter or something) but there's little supporting evidence for that.

It's very likely that she's connected to them in some sense. Remember that a sorceress has to pass on her powers before dying, and I can't imagine Rinoa and Squall wanting to pass it onto some random person.

 

[MrDaravon]

What the hell?

Ultimania guides are official. If you want to pretend like they're not that's fine, but it doesn't change that. How the fuck do you think we know a lot of the backstory and setting of Final Fantasy Tactics, Vagrant Story, and many others, not to mention Xenogears.

 

[mikeGFG]

yeah... While interesting, I doubt any of this is intended.

Squaresoft RPGs are not subtle. At all. These games will beat you over the head with narrative and dialogue until there is no other way to interpret the story than: 'something happened. here's why.'

 

[Freshmaker]

It's very likely that she's connected to them in some sense. Remember that a sorceress has to pass on her powers before dying, and I can't imagine Rinoa and Squall wanting to pass it onto some random person.

It doesn't seem to be genetic. Just looked like a ghost picking a convenient woman at the end.

(Not everyone knew of or reads the Ultramencia guides, so if any of this has been mentioned in them, oh well.)

 

[anaron]

God I love this theory.

I had never thought about the idea and only a couple years ago learned about it. It gives so much more depth to Ultimecia; a villian who we barely ever see in her own flesh throughout the game is actually a future evil version of the bratty 17 year old love interest? Awesome.

Really wish it was real.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Squall and co. go to kill Ultimecia. She doesn't invite them to her dungeon.

But if she's Rinoa, shouldn't she know that's what's going on?

FF VIII's time travel seemed the consistent self-fulfilling type, rather than the type where Ultimecia could try to change history and be surprised by the actions of her past self. Like how Squall and company retroactively gave strength to Laguna and his buddies, but if Laguna and his buddies hadn't survived there wouldn't have been a Squall and company.

Was Sony still doing the localizations for Square at this point?

They were being released by Square EA by that point. I'm not specifically seeing localization credits in FF VII's credits, but there's no Sony section listed in VIII's.

 

[Zoe]

It doesn't seem to be genetic. Just looked like a ghost picking a convenient woman at the end.

I'm not claiming it to be genetic, I just think they would be careful about who they pass it onto (like Edea didn't want Ulitmecia getting to the children).

 

[Sydle]

Never thought about this, but it's cool. I just remember it being a hard battle and beating it with one character standing at 237 HP. I felt quite good, and I have no desire to play it ever again.

 

[Man God]

Basically it goes like this.

Ultimecia's offical explaination for existing was so lame in an otherwise well put together tale (disregarding the orphanage/memories thing for one second) that the fans decided to piece together a much more interesting one.

It's part of the interesting mix of opposites that FF VIII creates.

A bad story told flawlessly.

A broken battle system that ends up being rather fun.

A two generation love story that ends with two unlikeable characters.

A minigame better than the final game.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

The real plot was Rinoa's link to generations before her versus Squall's rising up to meet them - Ultimecia didn't really figure heavily as an opponent as much as something in Rinoa that had to be dealt with. The ending video, with Rinoa's splintering and shattering into an uncertain, amorphous continuity - signals that Rinoa is the antagonist in every sense, Ultimecia is the embodiment of its destructive capacity.

All the key points of the game relate to a clash of two different experiences of time - the returning memory and embodied history. Think about the disc 3 ending and time compression.

Also think about who - you - actually - fought - and - when.

Its pretty clear to me that Ultimecia is a false narrative. We end on a video about overcoming the suspicions before falling in love. Who is she? Who can she become? Who is this man I wake up next to? Its right there in the logo, in what scenes are important enough to be CG.

Saying 'Ultimecia is Rinoa' is like saying Gears of War is actually heavily influenced by gay porn - completely obvious but a distraction from the core kernel of meaning.

 

[Death³]

FFVIII's translation appears to be fine, and the localization is amazing.

- The witch is called Artemisia and not Ultimecia.

- Sakaguchi stories never make sense

- Someone always has amnesia

- I am your father

 

[Atrophis]

I should probably finish FFVIII one of these days as its one of my favourites too.

Considering ive never completed a FF game, this is unlikely though

 

[R0nn]

Saying 'Ultimecia is Rinoa' is like saying Gears of War is actually heavily influenced by gay porn - completely obvious but a distraction from the core kernel of meaning.

Awesome :lol

I have always been a strong proponent of this theory. Actually, back in the day I didn't even realize this theory was so widespread. I came to the hypothesis on my own. Still, some of the arguments posted in this thread, made me rethink this theory. It's probably not true after all, but it's so much cooler. Ultimecia is such a dull and cookie cutter villain otherwise, just like almost every other previous ultimate villain in a FF.

 

[Zoe]

- The witch is called Artemisia and not Ultimecia.

You see that in romaji somewhere?

 

[Replicant]

Saying 'Ultimecia is Rinoa' is like saying Gears of War is actually heavily influenced by gay porn - completely obvious but a distraction from the core kernel of meaning.

Whaaa? It is? Please explain.

And oh, I wish this whole Rinoa = Ultimecia thing is real because that will make the story of FFVIII much better than it was.

 

[Prime Blue]

- The witch is called Artemisia and not Ultimecia.

- Sakaguchi stories never make sense

- Someone always has amnesia

- I am your father

DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY acknowledges Ultimecia as the right transliteration of アルティミシア (Arutimishia). I like Artemisia better, but the "ティ" kills it (unless the "e" in Artemisia is pronounced like the IPA-"i").

For the US guys: The German (and other PAL versions, too, I think) renamed some of the characters.

Zell -> Xell
Ultimecia -> Artemisia
Ellone -> Ellione (here, Ellione is the right translation, also used in the Ultimania Omega)

Also, read this. You would have to play the game blind-folded in order to question the theory.

 

[truly101]

My hatred of Rinoa is totally justified then!

 

[Hero]

People actually care about FFVIII's story?

The most interesting thing to me in the game was that Leguna and Julia were in love but never got to be together but their children did.

 

[Zoe]

DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY acknowledges Ultimecia as the right transliteration of アルティミシア (Arutimishia). I like Artemisia better, but the "ティ" kills it (unless the "e" in Artemisia is pronounced like the IPA-"i").

Katakana pronunciation isn't always taken exactly. It's possible to approximate the "te" from the ティ.

(not that I agree with Artemisia)

 

[R0nn]

I'm currently reading the Ultimecia/Time Compression FAQ at Gamefaqs and it's blowing my mind.

It's ridiculous how someone could create such an elaborate thesis on something as relatively unimportant as a videogame.

Spoiler

I love it

 

[Prime Blue]

Katakana pronunciation isn't always taken exactly. It's possible to approximate the "te" from the ティ.

Not always, no, but in the case of "te" and "ti", I think the audible difference is too big to make the leap to Artemisia. Unless the "e" really is pronounced differently.

 

[Dabookerman]

The problem is Nomura doesn't have much of a range when designing a character.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

- The witch is called Artemisia and not Ultimecia.

- Sakaguchi stories never make sense

- Someone always has amnesia

- I am your father

Sakaguchi had little-to-nothing to do with FFVIII's story. It was Kitase-Nojima's baby.

 

[APZonerunner]

Basically it goes like this.

Ultimecia's offical explaination for existing was so lame in an otherwise well put together tale (disregarding the orphanage/memories thing for one second) that the fans decided to piece together a much more interesting one.

It's part of the interesting mix of opposites that FF VIII creates.

A bad story told flawlessly.

A broken battle system that ends up being rather fun.

A two generation love story that ends with two unlikeable characters.

A minigame better than the final game.

This sums up FF8 perfectly. It's a strange picture it paints. Squall I actually liked by the time I hid the mid to late game, but I really hated Rinoa all the way through. What a bitch.

- The witch is called Artemisia and not Ultimecia.

- Sakaguchi stories never make sense

- Someone always has amnesia

- I am your father

Not Sakaguchi's baby. I'd say most of the FFs make perfect sense anyway, FF8 is a confusing exception.

 

[Bit-Bit]

It's my favorite Final Fantasy. Also, it has the best soundtrack of any Final Fantasy.

 

[y2dvd]

FFVIII has the best intro of any game to this day. Liberi Fatali is too hype! (jamming on OST)

 

[Xaekid]

I was a believer of the Rinoa-Ultimecia theory but if the Ultimania says otherwise, I guess that's that.

 

[Shirokun]

So wait, this game is actually good?

I've been too busy playing my new Dreamcast to notice.
















Couldn't resist.

 

[Ferrio]

So wait, this game is actually good?

I've been too busy playing my new Dreamcast to notice.

Couldn't resist.

*Dun dundun dun dundun dundundun*

*clap clap clap* *clap clap clap*

 

[Doubledex]

It was a nice theory, but the FFVIII's ultimania book killed it long time ago.

/thread

 

[charlequin]

The Rinoa = Ultimecia theory has never made any sense. The whole game is about Squall's social retardation and his inability to trust people (as well as people's inability to accept their fate), so how exactly does this theory make sense? If you accept that the people who wrote the game did so with the intention of making a coherent and good narrative (whether or not they succeeded), why would they create a secretive plot point like this that, when discovered, completely reverses the meaning of the ending? Why would they create incredibly subtle clues to this theory but then turn anround and make really obvious, straightforward pieces of evidence against it by having Ultimecia attempt to kill Rinoa and Squall repeatedly throughout the narrative?

It's undeniable that Rinoa and Ultimecia are thematically linked: all four of the sorceresses represent aspects of Squall's psyche that he doesn't want to grapple with because of the walls he's built up to prevent the potential pain and loss of human connection. But making them the same person doesn't make any sense whatsoever with the actual content of the story (and, as is well-established in this thread, visibly not what the creators intended.)

 

[TheJollyCorner]

/thread

NOT LISTENING!

I'M WITH YOU, HIMMY! I'm with you on this! :lol

 

[RevenantKioku]

Agreed.

Moreover Cid looks a lot older than Edea, perhaps, the two know each other as they both looked the same age, but then Edea forces received and is no longer weitergealtert, Cid can.

I see.

 

[MNC]

The only real comparison:

I actually hate this pic because there are better Camilla pictures. Oh well, it gets the message through. And the retarded mixture pic on the right.

 

[Hydro]

There's no use trying to make sense of Final Fantasy VIII's story. It's almost as much of a joke as its gameplay. :lol

 

[SomeDude]

Camilla would of been much younger when ff8 was released.

 

[MNC]

Camilla would of been much younger when ff8 was released.

I don't care ;-; I know this topic is about serious business comparisons but I just had to waltz in here with pics of Camilla.

 

[djkimothy]

Where's that pic with squall and rhinoa with caption bubbles:
Rhinoa: Squall, I'm dying.
Squall: Whatever...

Cracks me up everytime. :lol

 

[Rufus]

Holy shit, she (Camilla Belle) does look like Rinoa. ;

I see.

She didn't age, is what that says.

 

[Sephon]

But I like the theory, gives the story a lot more depth.

 

[charlequin]

Beat the game for the 6th time.

I'm still convinced Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Let's look at the facts:

1. Ultimecia's castle (the final dungeon) is nested exactly at the place where Squall and Rinoa said they would meet if they ever lost each other.

2. In the ending, the distorted visions of Rinoa show glimpses of Ultimecia's face. When Squall sees this he cries. Why would he cry?

3. Rinoa's wings when you use Angel Wing are white. Ultimecia has wing's very quite similar to this but they are black.

4. When Ultimecia is first revealed, the first thing Squall thinks of is Rinoa. This can't be coincidence.

5. How does she know of Griever?

6. The creators of Final Fantasy VIII explicitly did not intend for Ultimecia to be Rinoa.

7. The story is retarded if she is (if you like FFVIII's story at all, presumably you do so because of the themes of human connectedness and grappling with fate that the scenario presents, both of which are screwed up by making this connection).

8. That FAQ about the plot is retardedly complex, but if you push through it pretty much everything there is addressed: the wings are used to distinguish Rinoa (who represents Squall's hopes) from Ultimecia (who represents his fears); all the sorceresses are connected in the storyline and thematically because of their relationships to Squall (Rinoa and Edea represent both the positive and negative sides of sexual and motherly love, respectively; Adel and Ultimecia represent the threats of the outside world and the looming burden of fate); she knows about Griever because she is drawing things out of people's minds; if Ultimecia was really Rinoa gone mad from the loss of Squall she would be spending her time trying to connect with him or otherwise act like she recognized him in any way instead of repeatedly and with great force attempting to kill both her past boyfriend and her past-self.

 

[proposition]

I dunno about being "too subtle". They put a crucial key plot element in FFVII HIDDEN IN A RANDOM LIBRARY in a mansion no one would even think to check on disc 2.

That's not subtle, that's bad story planning.

 

[Walshicus]

That's not subtle, that's bad story planning.

What was it?

That's the problem trying to follow this thread when you've only had fleeting experience of the games beyond number 6. :S

 

[Totz]

What was it?

That's the problem trying to follow this thread when you've only had fleeting experience of the games beyond number 6. :S

I think they're talking about the flashback that shows Zack dying.

 

[KibblesBits]

The whole time I was playing the game I never ever even considered Rinoa to be Ultimecia.
And I still cannot make that connection at all.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

Not on topic, but I need to vent and this is the only Final Fantasy related thread about at the moment. I'm trying to do a complete FFXII game, but when I go to buy the Archades and Tchita Uplands map from the moogle in Old Archades he says I already have all the maps he can sell me, when I blatantly do not. I actually had to restart because this happened to me before. That time I thought it was because I had filled out all the areas of the Tchita Uplands, so I made sure to leave unfilled areas of the map this time, but no joy. This didn't happen when I was playing on the PS2, so I'm wondering if this bug is part of the emulation on a PS3, but would a fault in emulation software result in a game bug. I thought they'd be limited to visual/freezing issues, not game scripting bugs? Will I still be able to get the Sky Pirate's Den character for filling out all the maps, if I don't actually own the map for that area?

Guess I'll abadon this attempt, and replay FFVIII, 4th playthrough FTW.

 

[Lady Bird]

Squaresoft RPGs are not subtle. At all. These games will beat you over the head with narrative and dialogue until there is no other way to interpret the story than: 'something happened. here's why.'

There are exceptions. For example, could you tell me who were Tia and her son in Vagrant Story?

Spoiler

Ashley's family? And was Ashley fighting for revenge? Or Ashley's victims, and out protagonist was fighting for justice?

 

[GaimeGuy]

There's a bunch of other theories about FFVIII out there, like:


Ultimecia isn't Rinoa, but rather the result of Rinoa being corrupted by Adel's evil soul, which stayed dormant within Rinoa along with Adel's sorceress powers.

Another one:

Seifer is actually the son of Cid and Edea. This is pretty weak, and is only based on two or three things:

1. Cid has Seifer's card. Character cards in FFVIII tend to be owned by people who are connected to the particular characters.

2. Cid had SeeD provide assistance to Rinoa and the Timber Owls, after Seifer arranged a meeting between Cid and Rinoa. Why would Cid provide help to the Timber Owls, who had little money to pay and were relatively unorganized? And why would he in the first place even meet with them at the request of Seifer, who, while more talented than most SeeDs, was simply a student at the facility, not in administration?

Personally, I don't think there's much basis for that theory, but the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory has a lot of ideas surrounding it.

It's not like the clues about Julia being Rinoa's mother and Laguna and Raine being Squall's parents are that much more or less subtle than those people point towards as evidence for Rinoa being Ultimecia.

 

[charlequin]

It makes the story crappier. What kind of shitty story is "a bunch of plucky teenagers discover that love conquers all, only a thousand years later it turns out that love sucks and one of them has a miserable terrible ending where she goes crazy, murders a bunch of people, tries to kill herself and her boyfriend, and dies"?

If the story was going to be about someone's evil future, then make the story about that. In FFVIII it just goes against the things the story actually spends its time establishing and building up the thematic resonance of.