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[llien]

Gay couple:

vs baker:

Back in 2012 Mr Mullins and Mr. Craig went to Mr Phillips Cakeshop to order a cake for their marriage party.

Mr Phillips refused, saying it was his "standard business practice not to provide cakes for same-sex weddings" as it was against his Christian belief. He offered other products, including birthday cakes and biscuits.

The couple won the case at Colorado Civil Rights Comission.
In 2015 Colorado's appeals court upheld the decision, while state's supreme court denied review of the case.

Bakers Arguments
He argues that his cakes are artistic endeavours, and therefore guarantees of freedom of speech and expression in the US Constitution protect him from being forced to make creations that express a message he opposes.

His lawyers also say that he did not violate public accommodation laws that ban discrimination because he did not throw the gay couple out of the shop outright and refuse to serve them.


BBC


See also: similar case in Northern Ireland (lost by bakers).

 

[TeeDoff]

I'm on the bakers side of the argument. You cannot force an artist/creator to make you something that they don't want to make, they are not slaves. He offered alternative cakes/services so as not to discriminate against them as people, only the idea he disagrees with.

That isn't to say I agree with his views on gay marriage or homosexuality.

 

[test_account]

I'm on the bakers side of the argument. You cannot force an artist/creator to make you something that they don't want to make, they are not slaves. He offered alternative cakes/services so as not to discriminate against them as people, only the idea he disagrees with.

That isn't to say I agree with his views on gay marriage or homosexuality.

Did the cake have any specific theme artistically that the baker didnt want to make? Or was it a "standard" wedding cake? The article makes it sound like it was the latter. The birthday cake he offered could technically have been used in the wedding too, so it doesnt sound like any artistic visions was being compromised. Sounds like the baker didnt want to offer a cake that is tied to weddings, only because it was going to be used in a same-sex wedding.

 

[WaterAstro]

It doesn't matter what the result is going to be, the baker will lose in the end. Social media is just going to get the entire town to boycott his business, and he'll be forced to close shop or something.

 

[rjcc]

The baker is a liar.

I assume this is not a new business.

Does he have proof he's checked birth certificates and chromosomes for every wedding cake he's done before?

He doesn't? (He doesn't.)

He's lying. He doesn't know if people he's made cakes for before live up to his self-imposed rule that he applies without any kind of guideline.

It falls apart before you even get to him being a bigot.

 

[darkinstinct]

I'm on the bakers side of the argument. You cannot force an artist/creator to make you something that they don't want to make, they are not slaves. He offered alternative cakes/services so as not to discriminate against them as people, only the idea he disagrees with.

That isn't to say I agree with his views on gay marriage or homosexuality.

If you have a business you are always free to choose with whom you do business. However, it depends on the circumstances: Did he refuse to do a cake because they are gay? Or did he refuse to do a cake that focussed on them being gay? If they wanted an ordinary wedding cake and didn't get that because they are gay that is discrimination. If he simply didn't feel comfortable doing a cake with homosexual symbols or something similar, that is totally his right.

 

[Kule]

The baker is a liar.

I assume this is not a new business.

Does he have proof he's checked birth certificates and chromosomes for every wedding cake he's done before?

He doesn't? (He doesn't.)

He's lying. He doesn't know if people he's made cakes for before live up to his self-imposed rule that he applies without any kind of guideline.

It falls apart before you even get to him being a bigot.

I think the point is that he didn't want to willingly make the cake. I'm sure there would never have been an issue if the gay couple ordered and just put their own figures on top.

Not saying I think his stance is correct but he should have a right to use his talent and artistic ability in the way he sees fit.

 

[Inuteu]

what this had to do with gaming?

 

[InterMusketeer]

I think that as a salesman, you should be able to refuse any customer for any reason.

 

[Isurus]

what this had to do with gaming?

Absolutely nothing, which is what this thread is about to become.

 

[Spinoff90]

what this had to do with gaming?

Stealth Portal 3 marketing campaign?

 

[i-Lo]

Mods need to move it OT

I think that as a salesman, you should be able to refuse any customer for any reason.

Back in the day in the United States is God's country, there were people who could refuse doing business with sooner other people because of the colour of their skin. Guess what's that called?

 

[Martinski43]

What game is this??!!?? A visual novel?

 

[DonF]

What game is this??!!?? A visual novel?

the new Overcooked expansion.

 

[Chuckie]

I think that as a salesman, you should be able to refuse any customer for any reason.

Somehow the image of a bar where the bartender says to a black man walking in: "We don't serve your kind here" makes me extremely uncomfortable.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Back in the day in the United States is God's country, there were people could refuse doing business with sooner other people because of the colour of their skin. Guess what's that called?

That wasn't just individual shops making choices, it was actually encouraged by the law. You know, that institutional racism people like to talk about.

If a bakery doesn't want to bake a cake for someone walking in with a MAGA cap, or a white cloak, I think it should be within their right to do so, and they don't have to explain why they're refusing them. I'm sure there's other shops that will be happy to serve them.

 

[Naudyboy16]

Why is this even a topic in a gaming forum!!?

On the topic though, it's a tough call. His personal religious beliefs are what he's upholding versus discrimination and homophobia.

It seems like he only refused to sell them a wedding cake but offered other cakes and alternative businesses who could provide them a wedding cake. No where in there was there malice towards the couple for being gay.

This subject is such a tough one because it hits two different subjects that are tied to people's personal beliefs and rights.

I'm black and my wife is white, if I went into a bakery and ordered a wedding cake and the owner refused to sell my wife and I a wedding cake because of our interracial relationship, I would be pissed and label the owner a racist, but never in my mind would I think to sue the owner, it's his right to as a business owner to do whatever he or she wants. I would go on social media and tell the world how much he or she sucks and give them a bad review, but I wouldn't result in trying to change someone's view and outlook.

In my opinion now, this baker/owner wasn't out of hand if he explained to this couple his belief on the subject, offered them alternatives cakes and even recommended another shop out of courtesy. If they didn't like what he was doing, there are millions of other bakerys out in the world who would of gladly made them the cake of their dreams.

It's a tough one that calls on equal rights for sexual orientation as well as rights for religion and beliefs. It's not going to be easy to rule on this subject as the Supreme Court.

 

[Bl@de]

Somehow the image of a bar where the bartender says to a black man walking in: "We don't serve your kind here" makes me extremely uncomfortable.

And because of that customers can ignore the store as well. But nobody should be forced to sell his services to anyone.

 

[Chuckie]

And because of that customers can ignore the store as well. But nobody should be forced to sell his services to anyone.

Is this something you want to be true or is it actlually true? Can you actually refuse colored people in bars in the States?

Edit: And by want I don't mean you would want to refuse people personally, but that you are of the opinion people should be able to refuse customers for any reason.

 

[Bl@de]

But that you are of the opinion people should be able to refuse customers for any reason.

Yes they should be able to refuse any customer for any reason. And they should (and will) suffer for it economically because it‘s stupid to refuse a paying customer.

 

[i-Lo]

That wasn't just individual shops making choices, it was actually encouraged by the law. You know, that institutional racism people like to talk about.

If a bakery doesn't want to bake a cake for someone walking in with a MAGA cap, or a white cloak, I think it should be within their right to do so, and they don't have to explain why they're refusing them. I'm sure there's other shops that will be happy to serve them.

And because of that customers can ignore the store as well. But nobody should be forced to sell his services to anyone.

I am truly stunned. The fact that people can find excuses for others for their discriminatory behaviour in 2017 with a straight face is stunning.

And yes, of course if I was in the gay couple's shoes I'd shop elsewhere because I could never trust that baker to do the best job he can because it is in conflicted with his belief. But to know that people could refuse doing business with me for what I am and not because I possess any threat to them (only their beliefs) is astounding.

Why is this even a topic in a gaming forum!!?

On the topic though, it's a tough call. His personal religious beliefs are what he's upholding versus discrimination and homophobia.

It seems like he only refused to sell them a wedding cake but offered other cakes and alternative businesses who could provide them a wedding cake. No where in there was there malice towards the couple for being gay.

This subject is such a tough one because it hits two different subjects that are tied to people's personal beliefs and rights.

I'm black and my wife is white, if I went into a bakery and ordered a wedding cake and the owner refused to sell my wife and I a wedding cake because of our interracial relationship, I would be pissed and label the owner a racist, but never in my mind would I think to sue the owner, it's his right to as a business owner to do whatever he or she wants. I would go on social media and tell the world how much he or she sucks and give them a bad review, but I wouldn't result in trying to change someone's view and outlook.

In my opinion now, this baker/owner wasn't out of hand if he explained to this couple his belief on the subject, offered them alternatives cakes and even recommended another shop out of courtesy. If they didn't like what he was doing, there are millions of other bakerys out in the world who would of gladly made them the cake of their dreams.

It's a tough one that calls on equal rights for sexual orientation as well as rights for religion and beliefs. It's not going to be easy to rule on this subject as the Supreme Court.

The suing is to ensure that these discriminatory practices end for the sake of others who would be faced with the same discrimination.

 

[Sarkozix le Gaulois]

The suing is to ensure that these discriminatory practices end for the sake of others who would be faced with the same discrimination.

Or they just want easy money. There's a good chance they will win and they know it.

Anyway I'm with the Baker on this one. His shop, his rules.

 

[Spukc]

Cake building simulator 2018 incomming?

AWWW YEAH

 

[InterMusketeer]

I am truly stunned. The fact that people can find excuses for others for their discriminatory behaviour in 2017 with a straight face is stunning.

How is it an excuse? Business will probably suffer as a result of their refusal. There most likely will be consequences for that store. But it's still within their right (IMO) to do so. And the folks who were refused have the right to plaster this all over social media to inform others of that shop's shitty practices.

I think racists and bigots will find a way to continue their racist and bigoted behavior anyway. Just because I'm in favor of something that could potentially be used by racists sometime, doesn't mean I'm making excuses for their behavior. Especially not in this instance.

 

[RoboFu]

I must live in my own little naive bubble because it’s so strange to see something like this in this day.

Then again it’s religion driven so I guess i shouldn’t be surprised.

 

[Tommi84]

Did the cake have any specific theme artistically that the baker didnt want to make? Or was it a "standard" wedding cake? The article makes it sound like it was the latter.

Quite the opposite in fact:
Instead, he offered them other products, including birthday cakes and biscuits.
This part of the article strongly suggests, that they didn't want a regular one, but rather something specific.

 

[Royce McCutcheon]

Gay couple is terrible on Hanamura, and baker is a sub par dps.

 

[Noboru Wataya]

Quite the opposite in fact:
Instead, he offered them other products, including birthday cakes and biscuits.
This part of the article strongly suggests, that they didn't want a regular one, but rather something specific.

I never got that, if there was something specific they wanted on the cake then the news article failed in reporting that.

Basically, two men wanted a wedding cake for their gay wedding, It doesn’t say anything more was requested, and the baker said no you can have other cakes and buns but no wedding cake.

If the above is true then fuck that baker, give them a damn cake and stop being a backwards prick.

If the gay men wanted a big gawdy rainbow cake with “same sex marriage 4eva” written on it and cock shaped sprinkles, then fuck those guys for crying when he said no.

None of us know the details of what happened, so fuck the news reporter for doing a shitty job.

 

[themagicalkitsune]

The mental hoops some of you are willing to jump through to not give a gay couple their cake...

 

[RastaMentality]

Or they just want easy money. There's a good chance they will win and they know it.

And? If you don’t want a litigious person to file suit against you in pursuit of a big monetary sum... try not violating their rights?

 

[mckmas8808]

It doesn't matter what the result is going to be, the baker will lose in the end. Social media is just going to get the entire town to boycott his business, and he'll be forced to close shop or something.

Well.....he won't be forced to do anything if he cares that much about his beliefs. And if the whole town boycotts him, then maybe his beliefs are the problem given the area he lives in.

 

[Naudyboy16]

The mental hoops some of you are willing to jump through to not give a gay couple their cake...

What!!? Again this is why this topic is such a heated one and probably shouldn't be discussed on a gaming forum. Mental hoops!? His RELIGION!!!! Prevents him from doing it. In the Catholic/Christian faith marriage is between a man and a woman. That's his belief and thats what he believes in!!!!! He didn't have to jump through any mental hoops to come to any conclusion. He even offered other games etc that aren't wedding cakes. In him making them a wedding cake, he would be participating in something that goes against his religion.

If you went to a Muslim baker and asked them the same thing, because of their religion they would say No as well. If you go to a middle eastern country and attemped this same thing, guess what would happen!!?

No one wants to be discriminated against, but to use your rights to subvert someone into doing something against their religion is also backwards thinking.

I get it, but there are millions of other bakerys out there, they could of went anywhere else when the baker told them his belief.

 

[mckmas8808]

How is it an excuse? Business will probably suffer as a result of their refusal. There most likely will be consequences for that store. But it's still within their right (IMO) to do so. And the folks who were refused have the right to plaster this all over social media to inform others of that shop's shitty practices.

I think racists and bigots will find a way to continue their racist and bigoted behavior anyway. Just because I'm in favor of something that could potentially be used by racists sometime, doesn't mean I'm making excuses for their behavior. Especially not in this instance.

It's like this country didn't go through this from 1905 to 1964 or something. White privelege is real in here!

Many businesses WON'T suffer because being racist pays in lots of areas in America. Ever watch Fox News?

 

[Brqan]

Maybe the baker was hacked by the Russians.

 

[Bustanen]

GTA V: Ballad of Cake Tony

 

[test_account]

Quite the opposite in fact:
Instead, he offered them other products, including birthday cakes and biscuits.
This part of the article strongly suggests, that they didn't want a regular one, but rather something specific.

The article only states that they wanted a wedding cake. It doesnt specificy if they wanted a particular artisitc design for this wedding cake, some specific graphical theme. If they had came in a pointed at typical birthday cake and said that they wanted that as their wedding cake, it doesnt sound like the baker would be perfectly fine with that.

 

[Sailent]

the new Overcooked expansion.

Thought it was Cook, do not serve, delicious: Tears edition

 

[Ecto311]

The mental hoops some of you are willing to jump through to not give a gay couple their cake...

What mental hoops? Dude didn't want to make it and some how in my state it won a court case? How the fuck does that happen? If baker didn't want to do it then how do you make someone do a thing. Especially if it goes against his beliefs? Silly beliefs but how do you make someone do something for you at all, ever? There are 1000 different cake places and the couple could have went to a different place. Not like this baker makes the best cakes in the state or something.

I can't wrap my head around having a belief and someone wants me to do a thing that goes against it. I say no and a court steps in and says fuck that do it or pay them a shitload of money.

 

[Unknown?]

The article only states that they wanted a wedding cake. It doesnt specificy if they wanted a particular artisitc design for this wedding cake. If they had came in a pointed at typical birthday cake and said that they wanted that for their wedding, it doesnt sound like the baker would be perfectly fine with that.

Completely hogwash, he didn’t refuse because they are gay. It says right there that he still was willing to do business this is no hate crime and frankly what the couple are doing is way worse than what the baker did.

 

[i-Lo]

What!!? Again this is why this topic is such a heated one and probably shouldn't be discussed on a gaming forum. Mental hoops!? His RELIGION!!!! Prevents him from doing it. In the Catholic/Christian faith marriage is between a man and a woman. That's his belief and thats what he believes in!!!!! He didn't have to jump through any mental hoops to come to any conclusion. He even offered other games etc that aren't wedding cakes. In him making them a wedding cake, he would be participating in something that goes against his religion.

If you went to a Muslim baker and asked them the same thing, because of their religion they would say No as well. If you go to a middle eastern country and attemped this same thing, guess what would happen!!?

No one wants to be discriminated against, but to use your rights to subvert someone into doing something against their religion is also backwards thinking.

I get it, but there are millions of other bakerys out there, they could of went anywhere else when the baker told them his belief.

What mental hoops? Dude didn't want to make it and some how in my state it won a court case? How the fuck does that happen? If baker didn't want to do it then how do you make someone do a thing. Especially if it goes against his beliefs? Silly beliefs but how do you make someone do something for you at all, ever? There are 1000 different cake places and the couple could have went to a different place. Not like this baker makes the best cakes in the state or something.

I can't wrap my head around having a belief and someone wants me to do a thing that goes against it. I say no and a court steps in and says fuck that do it or pay them a shitload of money.

From the article:

What ramifications could this have?

A verdict in favour of Mr Phillips could open the door for a number of businesses to refuse certain services to gay couples by invoking religious beliefs.

Legal experts say that businesses could use the case to say they have a similar right to turn way, for instance, interracial couples if this clashes with their religious beliefs.
ACLU lawyer Louise Melling said opposition lawyers were "asking for a constitutional right to discriminate".

"This is not a case about a cake," she told Reuters. "It is a case about a very radical proposition."

 

[test_account]

Completely hogwash, he didn't refuse because they are gay. It says right there that he still was willing to do business this is no hate crime and frankly what the couple are doing is way worse than what the baker did.

Whats complete hogwash? Says right in the article that he didnt want to make them a wedding cake because hes against gay marriage. Why would be fine of making another wedding cake for them that has a different shape (like a birthday cake) when it says that this is why he didnt want to do it?

 

[gunslikewhoa]

It's like this country didn't go through this from 1905 to 1964 or something. White privelege is real in here!

Many businesses WON'T suffer because being racist pays in lots of areas in America. Ever watch Fox News?

Nonsense.

 

[InterMusketeer]

It's like this country didn't go through this from 1905 to 1964 or something. White privelege is real in here!

Many businesses WON'T suffer because being racist pays in lots of areas in America. Ever watch Fox News?

I don't live in the US, so no, I don't watch Fox news, and I don't know for sure what consequences this might have for the store. All I stated were my opinions on whether s store should be able to refuse a customer for any reason.

 

[Naudyboy16]

From the article:

Again, this is why this isn't a topic for the internet. We each hold our own beliefs. I mentioned in my first post, my wife is white and I'm black, if I went to a bakery that refused to sell us a wedding cake, guess what!? I would leave and go to another bakery. It's not the end of the damn world!!

 

[Sarkozix le Gaulois]

And? If you don’t want a litigious person to file suit against you in pursuit of a big monetary sum... try not violating their rights?

Yes, but perhaps his beliefs are more important to him than what society considers acceptable, and he's ready to pay the price ?

An admirable move if you ask me.

Again, this is why this isn't a topic for the internet. We each hold our own beliefs. I mentioned in my first post, my wife is white and I'm black, if I went to a bakery that refused to sell us a wedding cake, guess what!? I would leave and go to another bakery. It's not the end of the damn world!!

Also this. They didn't have to sue.

 

[i-Lo]

Again, this is why this isn't a topic for the internet. We each hold our own beliefs. I mentioned in my first post, my wife is white and I'm black, if I went to a bakery that refused to sell us a wedding cake, guess what!? I would leave and go to another bakery. It's not the end of the damn world!!

If in spite of the ramification clearly outlined in that you still hold to your notion that it's okay to turn away when being discriminated against because of other potential avenues and then complain about others who choose to stand and fight the discrimination for themselves and others then I have nothing more to say.

Worse still you use your use your claim of interracial relationship and whataboutism in the previous posts as crutches for your close to apathetic attitude.

And this "not a topic for internet" argument holds no water when you're knee deep in it trying to justify one side's actions.

Yes, but perhaps his beliefs are more important to him than what society considers acceptable, and he's ready to pay the price ?

An admirable move if you ask me.

This forum truly has taken a turn to the hard right.

 

[Naudyboy16]

Whats complete hogwash? Says right in the article that he didnt want to make them a wedding cake because hes against gay marriage. Why would be fine of making another wedding cake for them that has a different shape (like a birthday cake) when it says that this is why he didnt want to do it?

80% of America screams about "my prayers are with you, we're praying for you, pray for Los Vegas" pray for this and pray for that, but when it comes down to the actual belief of the religion then no one stands behind it. Kids in elementary school say the pledge of allegiance under God, the motto on our money is "In God we trust." This country was based on a Catholic/Christain religion, but when someone who actually believes in that faith holds true to his religion he's blackballed and sued!?

This baker showed no malice towards this couple and would of sold them any other cake because he holds no hatred towards them. In Catholic/Christain religion, a wedding is between a man and a woman. Him making specifically a wedding cake is him contributing to something that goes against what he believes. Nothing in his religion says he can't celebrate a gay persons birthday or graduation, hence why he would sell them a birthday cake, but his religion specifically states what marriage is to his belief.

Again, we're taking one person's rights away to cater to another person's right. There's no right and wrong to this I guess, but he shouldn't be forced to do something he doesn't believe in, and I don't understand why the couple is pushing him to do something he doesn't believe.

 

[Velius]

I am truly stunned. The fact that people can find excuses for others for their discriminatory behaviour in 2017 with a straight face is stunning.

And yes, of course if I was in the gay couple's shoes I'd shop elsewhere because I could never trust that baker to do the best job he can because it is in conflicted with his belief. But to know that people could refuse doing business with me for what I am and not because I possess any threat to them (only their beliefs) is astounding.



The suing is to ensure that these discriminatory practices end for the sake of others who would be faced with the same discrimination.

It shouldn't be astounding, and it makes sense.

Imagine if it were switched around? What if we were talking about a baker who was gay? For the longest time he's struggled to enjoy the basic freedoms that others have. Now as a grown adult he has that freedom. He has a cake shop, in which he designs cakes specifically for weddings.

Then along comes a couple whom he knows is opposed to gay marriage. Hell maybe even one of them used to bully him. Should he be forced to make a cake for them?

No. Of course not. You would side with him, and rightly so.

You're opposed to this particular baker because you are opposed to his beliefs. But you need to really think beyond that, because even though his views are diametrically opposed to your own, the law is supposed to be catered to a society in which we can live together despite different views, so we don't end up tearing each other apart.

Right now, most people in the internet community lean left . But that's only right now, and there is a shift in the works within the younger generation.

How would you like to live in a community in which most people were right winged, AND everyone was required to sell to any customer who came into their shop? Judging by your vernacular, I'd wager you wouldn't be too keen on that.

But that's what people are setting themselves up for when they can't see past their own noses. Whenever we're talking about adding to or revising the law, we have to ask ourselves HOW it could possibly be abused, and how it could be implemented in a different social climate.

That is why you shouldn't be stunned. You should be supporting the stance of the baker. Not because he deserves it, not because he's right. But because you want to be able to have that freedom yourself.

 

[Naudyboy16]

If in spite of the ramification clearly outlined in that you still hold to your notion that it's okay to turn away when being discriminated against because of other potential avenues and then complain about others who choose to stand and fight the discrimination for themselves and others then I have nothing more to say.

Worse still you use your use your claim of interracial relationship and whataboutism in the previous posts as crutches for your close to apathetic attitude.

And this "not a topic for internet" argument holds no water when you're knee deep in it trying to justify one side's actions.



This forum truly has taken a turn to the hard right.

We will agree to disagree. Everyone has a right to their own belief right? Pushing your rights to take someone else's belief and right is perfectly fine with you then I take it?

 

[Rains]

It doesn't matter what the result is going to be, the baker will lose in the end. Social media is just going to get the entire town to boycott his business, and he'll be forced to close shop or something.

Good we live in 2017 its clear that is was because the couple where gay or wanted a gay themed cake either one is not a problem for a Modern member of sociaty