George W Bush- "You guys do know I can still use Presidential powers, right? ehehehe"

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grandjedi6

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Just four days before he left office, President Bush instructed former White House aide Karl Rove to refuse to cooperate with future congressional inquiries into alleged misconduct during his administration.

On Jan. 16, 2009, then White House Counsel Fred Fielding sent a letter (.pdf) to Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin. The message: should his client receive any future subpoenas, Rove "should not appear before Congress" or turn over any documents relating to his time in the White House. The letter told Rove that President Bush was continuing to assert executive privilege over any testimony by Rove—even after he leaves office.

A nearly identical letter (.pdf) was also sent by Fielding the day before to a lawyer for former White House counsel Harriet Miers, instructing her not to appear for a scheduled deposition with the House Judiciary Committee. That letter reasserted the White House position that Miers has "absolute immunity" from testifying before Congress about anything she did while she worked at the White House—a far-reaching claim that is being vigorously disputed by lawyers for the House of Representatives in court.

The letters set the stage for what is likely to be a highly contentious legal and political battle over an unresolved issue: whether a former president can assert "executive privilege"—and therefore prevent his aides from testifying before Congress—even after his term has expired.

"To my knowledge, these [letters] are unprecedented," said Peter Shane, an Ohio State University law professor who specializes in executive-privilege issues. "I'm aware of no sitting president that has tried to give an insurance policy to a former employee in regard to post-administration testimony." Shane likened the letter to Rove as an attempt to give his former aide a 'get-out-of-contempt-free card'."

The issue arose this week after House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers announced that he had subpoenaed Rove to be deposed under oath next Monday to answer questions about his alleged role in the firing of U.S. attorneys and the prosecution of the former Democratic governor of Alabama, Don Siegelman. Conyers, whose panel extensively investigated both matters last year, signaled that he has no intention of dropping them now just because Bush has left office. "After two years of stonewalling, it's time for him [Rove] to talk," Conyers said in a press release.

But it is unclear whether Rove—or Miers, who was found in contempt of Congress last year when she refused to honor an earlier subpoena—is close to doing so. Luskin said he did not solicit the letter from Fielding, but maintains that its contents give his client little choice in the matter.

Fielding's letter cited the aggressive position of the Bush Justice Department on executive-privilege issues. That doctrine essentially held that White House aides not only did not have to answer specific questions before Congress about their presidential duties, they didn't even have to show up in response to subpoenas because they had "absolute immunity."

"We anticipate that one or more committees of the United States Congress might again seek to compel Mr. Rove's appearance, testimony or documents on the subject of the U.S. attorneys matter," Fielding wrote. "Please advise Mr. Rove ... that the President continues to direct him not to provide information (whether in the form of testimony or documents) to the Congress in this matter …"

Reached Wednesday afternoon, Fielding declined to comment. But a former presidential aide, who asked not to be identified talking about sensitive matters, said that the letter to Rove was "basically the same" as the one sent to Miers (and a third letter sent to former White House chief of staff Josh Bolten). "If the president was going to assert privilege," this source said, he had to do it before he left office on Jan. 20.

Luskin said that he forwarded a copy of Fielding's letter, as well as the subpoena he got from Conyers, to Obama's White House counsel, Greg Craig, and essentially asked for the new president's position on these matters.

So far, he said, Craig hasn't responded; Luskin also says he has asked the House Judiciary Committee to postpone its deposition of Rove until he hears back. The committee has agreed to put off the deposition—but only for a few weeks.

The issue is likely to come to a head soon. The Justice Department is due to state its position on executive privilege to the U.S. Court of Appeals in a few weeks in response to the House's attempt to enforce its previous subpoenas for Miers and Bolten, who were subpoenaed to turn over documents relating the U.S. attorneys firings. Both refused to comply, or even show up—relying on the Bush Justice Department's sweeping position on "absolute immunity" from testifying before Congress.

Few legal observers expect the Obama Justice Department to endorse that position, but it remains an open question how the new administration will define the scope of presidential privilege. Bush's attempt to assert privilege even after he leaves office throws a new wrinkle into the dispute.

"We're in uncharted territory," Luskin said to NEWSWEEK when asked whether a former president can still assert executive privilege after he leaves office. He added that Rove has no personal objection to testifying and will cooperate with an ongoing Justice Department inquiry into the U.S. attorneys firing—although Luskin says he has not yet been contacted. (Rove is an occasional contributor to Newsweek).

A White House aide said Wednesday afternoon that Craig's office was still reviewing the issue.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/182240

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DOO13ER said:
I don't know, sometimes he struck me as just an incredibly deluded fool who genuinely thought he was doing the right thing.
He struck me as the puppethead for Cheney and the administration. Bush seems like an amiable drunkard, but I really doubt he was running the show.
 
Stairs said:
I read your thread title in John Stewart's Bush voice.

I'm going to miss that voice.

Well if articles like this keep coming out I think we'll be hearing that Bush voice for awhile yet...
 
Well, executive privelege on these types of things (not necessarily this particular case, just this type of thing in general) would be pretty fucking stupid if he wasn't allowed to use it once he leaves office. What would be the point in allowing him to block testimony while in office if they could just wait a few years and get the testimony anyway?
 
Monroeski said:
Well, executive privelege on these types of things (not necessarily this particular case, just this type of thing in general) would be pretty fucking stupid if he wasn't allowed to use it once he leaves office. What would be the point in allowing him to block testimony while in office if they could just wait a few years and get the testimony anyway?
Well considering that the reasoning behind these types of executive privileges in the first place is that "for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch", I'm going to have to call into question what constitutional duties Bush is still performing.
 
If you watch that movie W, it really seems like he is a good guy, but the people around him use him as a puppet to push their agendas like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.
 
Sounds like he did some assholish things in private to the staff too. Like the yelling at a staffer who was called in on a Saturday for not wearing a jacket. Yelled at and berated him for 15 minutes.:lol
 
grandjedi6 said:
Well considering that the reasoning behind these types of executive privileges in the first place is that "for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch", I'm going to have to call into question what constitutional duties Bush is still performing.
I'm not trying to defend Bush, but in the grander scheme of things... you have to take into account that Presidents might be more hesitant to act quickly in emergencies if they have reason to believe that their actions will lead to them being prosecuted as soon as they leave office. That's why in some cases it makes sense to protect Presidents even after they leave office, so the need for quick action isn't being mitigated by fear of future prosecution.

Of course in some cases a President should be punished, but it's tricky to just prosecute a President if it causes future Presidents to be hesitant and slow to act.
 
BoboBrazil said:
If you watch that movie W, it really seems like he is a good guy, but the people around him use him as a puppet to push their agendas like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.
"Fool me once..."
 
dionusos said:
I'm not trying to defend Bush, but in the grander scheme of things... you have to take into account that Presidents might be more hesitant to act quickly in emergencies if they have reason to believe that their actions will lead to them being prosecuted as soon as they leave office. That's why in some cases it makes sense to protect Presidents even after they leave office, so the need for quick action isn't being mitigated by fear of future prosecution.

Of course in some cases a President should be punished, but it's tricky to just prosecute a President if it causes future Presidents to be hesitant and slow to act.

Then perhaps those aren't the right actions to take? I dunno...just sayin'

I mean, we can't well let them do whatever they want, without concern for the legality of their actions either.
 
I find it hardly surprising that the newly-elected democrat government, with its huge list of urgent business, almost immediately starts an investigation into the Bush administration.

As others have noted, disallowing executive privilege would inhibit whatever current administration from having the discussions it would need to make the right decisions.
 
Cheesemeister said:
I find it hardly surprising that the newly-elected democrat government, with its huge list of urgent business, almost immediately starts an investigation into the Bush administration.

As others have noted, disallowing executive privilege would inhibit whatever current administration from having the discussions it would need to make the right decisions.

Yup cause the gov't can't multi-task... and lets not put this all just on the new folks who just got there...Obama has publically poo-poo'd this repeatedly I believe Pelosi is the driving factor on this one.
 
Cheesemeister said:
I find it hardly surprising that the newly-elected democrat government, with its huge list of urgent business, almost immediately starts an investigation into the Bush administration.

As others have noted, disallowing executive privilege would inhibit whatever current administration from having the discussions it would need to make the right decisions.

What should be more telling is that Bush knew this was coming...almost an admission of guilt or wrongdoing.

Just four days before he left office, President Bush instructed former White House aide Karl Rove to refuse to cooperate with future congressional inquiries into alleged misconduct during his administration.​

What's there to hide if it's merely "alleged"?

"Hey, they're going to want to know about that hush-hush thing we did that wasn't entirely legal...don't tell em'!"
 
CharlieDigital said:
Then perhaps those aren't the right actions to take? I dunno...just sayin'

I mean, we can't well let them do whatever they want, without concern for the legality of their actions either.
Well yeah, the point is that what the "right actions" are, isn't always readily apparent in an emergency. If you're the president and your people tell you there is an emergency and something has to be done and no one has all the details yet... but they know that doing nothing will mean a lot of deaths, the "right actions" might seem like one thing. Then a week later when more info comes out, the "right actions" might seem another thing entirely.

And if the president can be prosecuted for it, then future presidents in an emergency will look at that situation and be like "I'll wait a week for more information so I don't get my ass sued."

And I agree we can't just let them do whatever they want, but you have to be careful not to give future presidents a reason to hesitate in emergencies simply because they have adapted their thinking to potential future legal consequences.
 
dionusos said:
And if the president can be prosecuted for it, then future presidents will look at the situation and be like "I'll wait a week for more information so I don't get my ass sued."

It's called a presidential impeachment and it's happened before (Johnson, Nixon, Clinton). The title of President of the United States does not give one free reign to act outside of the bounds of legality.
 
CharlieDigital said:
It's called a presidential impeachment and it's happened before (Johnson, Nixon, Clinton). The title of President of the United States does not give one free reign to act outside of the bounds of legality.
Like I stated twice before, I already agree the President can't do whatever he wants. But at the same time, you shouldn't give future presidents a reason to think that the threshold for post-presidential legal ramifications is low.
 
dionusos said:
If you're the president and your people tell you there is an emergency and something has to be done and no one has all the details yet... but they know that doing nothing will mean a lot of deaths, the "right actions" might seem like one thing. Then a week later when more info comes out, the "right actions" might seem another thing entirely.

Please explain how your hypothetical situation fits here.
 
DarienA said:
Please explain how your hypothetical situation fits here.

kaching said:
Do you really think that applies here?

Maybe you two missed it, but I stated already above that I am not defending Bush or saying he shouldn't face any legal ramifications. I was responding to this:

grandjedi6 said:
Well considering that the reasoning behind these types of executive privileges in the first place is that "for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch", I'm going to have to call into question what constitutional duties Bush is still performing.

That ^ post implies that once a president is out of office, he's fair game for legal prosecutors. I was responding in that context that I don't agree.

Therefore, you can see that my hypothetical situation was not meant to fit into the Bush situation, but it was simply meant as a counter-argument to the general notion that a president should be fair game for legal action after he leaves office.

And again please note that I am not saying a president is exempt from legal action in every single case.
 
dionusos said:
That ^ post implies that once a president is out of office, he's fair game for legal prosecutors. I was responding in that context that I don't agree.

He is pretty much fair game whether he's in office or out of office.
 
If George W. Bush still drank people would be lining up around the block to party with him.

However......he no longer drinks. And as such is more likely to get a shoe thrown at him rather than a witty one liner.

But let this thought rattle around your head for a bit. Imagine the damage Bush, Rove and co. could have done weren't so totally inept.

There's a thought to keep you up at night.
 
CharlieDigital said:
He is pretty much fair game whether he's in office or out of office.
I laid out my reasoning for why he isn't, and included a disclaimer that he is not exempt from all legal action. Please lay out your reasoning for why he is.
 
dionusos said:
I laid out my reasoning for why he isn't, and included a disclaimer that he is not exempt from all legal action. Please lay out your reasoning for why he is.

Are you reading my posts right? I think the president is not, at any time, exempt from legal action. The president should be held accountable for his/her actions and decisions regardless of the external conditions. If he hasn't broken the law and his actions were justified and within the legal limits of executive priv., then man up and let Rove stand trial and testify.
 
dionusos said:
Maybe you two missed it, but I stated already above that I am not defending Bush or saying he shouldn't face any legal ramifications. I was responding to this:



That ^ post implies that once a president is out of office, he's fair game for legal prosecutors. I was responding in that context that I don't agree.

Therefore, you can see that my hypothetical situation was not meant to fit into the Bush situation, but it was simply meant as a counter-argument to the general notion that a president should be fair game for legal action after he leaves office.

And again please note that I am not saying a president is exempt from legal action in every single case.

Your defense sounds like that Nixon sound bite I keep hearing from that movie:

"Well, when the president does it that means that it is not illegal."
 
DarienA said:
Your defense sounds like that Nixon sound bite I keep hearing from that movie:

"Well, when the president does it that means that it is not illegal."
Why does it sound like that? I never said anything like that, especially considering the multiple times I stated that I was not defended Bush, and the multiple times I said that I don't think a president should just get away with anything.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Are you reading my posts right? I think the president is not, at any time, exempt from legal action. The president should be held accountable for his/her actions and decisions regardless of the external conditions. If he hasn't broken the law and his actions were justified and within the legal limits of executive priv., then man up and let Rove stand trial and testify.
I'm not sure you and I are on the same page on what "fair game" means. When I said he's not fair game, that doesn't mean completely exempt. It means he shouldn't be treated under normal rules. But I never advocated a position where the threshold is infinite.

I am guessing that when you read my line that he isn't "fair game," you thought I was saying he was exempt. I was simply saying the threshold for prosecuting him should be higher than for most people in America. Remember my posts are in response to someone saying that once a president is out of office, you can prosecute him for things you couldn't prosecute him for when he was in office. I am saying that this policy would miss the point, since future presidents' judgments would be ruled by fear of prosecution.
 
It sounds like W. is dangling for immunity - and he'd have no problem hanging Turd Blossom out to dry if he gets it. That's just my feelings.

In any case, here's the facts, this stuff hasn't been resolved through the courts because no President ever tried to pull this shit. When it does, if it does, I am confident that it will be found that he can assert this privilege in the manner with which he is doing it.
 
I find it hard to believe that an ex-president would have more authority over such legal matters than a current sitting president.

If an ex-president thinks he has executive powers, than a current president should have the authority to overturn them.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Come on dude, this isn't like jaywalking or littering or something :lol
And I'm not saying it is. I was responding to a guy who was saying how once a president is out of office, you should just prosecute him for things that you couldn't prosecute him for when he was in office.

What I am saying is:

If you can't prosecute him for it when he's in office, you shouldn't be able to prosecute him for it after he leaves office.

If you can prosecute him for it after he leaves office, you should be able to prosecute him for it when he's in office.

The threshold for "prosecutability" should not change just because he left office, or else future presidents' judgments will be controlled by fear of prosecution.
 
ZealousD said:
I find it hard to believe that an ex-president would have more authority over such legal matters than a current sitting president.

If an ex-president thinks he has executive powers, than a current president should have the authority to overturn them.
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone was saying Obama can't overturn something Bush did. In fact, Obama has said that prosecuting Bush is not a priority right now. It's Pelosi that wants to do it. Doesn't surprise me... Obama is about fixing America. Pelosi is about payback.
 
Cheesemeister said:
I find it hardly surprising that the newly-elected democrat government, with its huge list of urgent business, almost immediately starts an investigation into the Bush administration.

As others have noted, disallowing executive privilege would inhibit whatever current administration from having the discussions it would need to make the right decisions.

Hi! This investigation has been going on for well over a year. And Democrats have controlled Congress since 2006.
 
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