Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

SlimySnake said:
Like i said earlier, if you are charging $450 for a console and $70 for a game you ought to at least have PS4 quality visuals right now.

Having a reputation for producing trashy looking garbage for well over 2 decades doesnt excuse them from criticism either. It made sense the last three generations when they were first stuck with a ps2 era then two ps3 equivalent consoles back to back. Not anymore. Time to stop treating them with kids gloves. This kind of attitude of letting it slide is how we got 5 years of cross gen trash from Sony.
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They don't produce garbage, come on. They've made, inarguably, many of the best games to ever grace the medium.

I understand this is a graphics thread so criticism about visuals are valid, but calling Nintendo games "garbage" is just asinine.
 
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SABRE220 said:
The Xbox One is just 1.31tflops, meanwhile the Switch 2 is 3.07 tflops when docked, and its docked mod,e which runs the game at 1440p 60fps. Secondly the tflops are not 1:1 not even close. The GPU architecture in the Switch 2 is a colossal upgrade over the pitcairn in the One S. Seven Nvidia gpu generations worth of architectural improvements have gone into the Switch 2 compared to the gpu arch in the One, to the point it's still embarrassing relatively comparable RDNA3-based handhelds launched today.

So I'm actually bewildered that you think this is them basically maxing out the hardware effectively in your mind.
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Why the fuck are all these Switch 2 "4k" games always in reality 1440p, yet everyone acts as if they're internal resolution is "4k"

Really annoying especially when you finally play the game and see the aliasing everywhere combined with horrific texture filtering....just shows how weak the Switch 2 must be because MP4 was developed primarily for Switch 1 so if any game should be able to get close to native 4k it would be this (and same with Zeldas and Odyssey). Nintendo can't be that technically inept that they would be able to do 4k, anti aliasing, and decent texture filtering but just choose not to use them for no reason, right?
 
Msamy said:
SlimySnake SlimySnake Remmber you were hyped for this one when they showed its first screens, developer (liquid swards studio)
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Nice! Thanks for posting.

I like the first two opening shots a lot but the rest of the trailer doesnt scream UE5 to me. Fairly standard cross gen looking title. I do think its interesting that its a brawler, not a shooter. First open world brawler since one of my favorite PS360 games Sleeping Dogs.
 
rodrigolfp said:
With reconstructed resolution and not the same "beauty" of the campaign. And Halo 4 at 1080p/60fps on XBO is not the same as on X360, otherwise it would also be 1080/60 on X360. 🤷‍♂️
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And with that reconstructed resolution, it still looks a generation ahead of Metroid 4 and isn't far off the campaign in sheer fidelity outside Image quality. Funny part was no one noticed for months until Digital foundry started pixel counting and found out. Nintendo fans have been shouting that reconstruction or native doesn't matter as long as the game looks great, no?





What are you even arguing...., Halo 4 is the same game with comparable fidelity to Metroid 4 and is able to run at a solid 1080p 60fps easily on a much weaker Xbox One. They could have done much better with a much more impressive Switch2 in comparison, is the point.

The fact remains they could have done hell of a lot more than simply throw out a switch game looking like Halo 4 upressed and upframed...the next Metroid mainstay showcase game deserved much better, as a massive Metroid fan who witnessed Metroid Prime on the GameCube dropping jaws the drop in ambition and quality is depressing. They could have easily made the game even 1080p reconstructed with DLSS and added fidelity instead of taking the easy way out.
 
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SABRE220 said:
And with that reconstructed resolution, it still looks a generation ahead of Metroid 4 and isn't far off the campaign in sheer fidelity outside Image quality. Funny part was no one noticed for months until Digital foundry started pixel counting and found out. Nintendo fans have been shouting that reconstruction or native doesn't matter as long as the game looks great, no?





What are you even arguing...., Halo 4 is the same game with comparable fidelity to Metroid 4 and is able to run at a solid 1080p 60fps easily on a much weaker Xbox One. They could have done much better with a much more impressive Switch2 in comparison, is the point.

The fact remains they could have done hell of a lot more than simply throw out a switch game looking like Halo 4 upressed and upframed...the next Metroid mainstay showcase game deserved much better, as a massive Metroid fan who witnessed Metroid Prime on the GameCube dropping jaws the drop in ambition and quality is depressing. They could have easily made the game even 1080p reconstructed with DLSS and added fidelity instead of taking the easy way out.
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Forget about Killzone Shadow Fall. The truth is Killzone Shadow fall gaps MP4. The real question we need to ask is when we look at Killzone mercenary on the vita, is it more impressive considering the hardware when compare to MP4 on the Switch 2?

Metroid Prime 4 obviously looks better however when we look at the vita's specs, we see it has a quad-core ARM Cortex-A9 CPU and a quad-core PowerVR SGX543MP4+ GPU, with 512MB of RAM and 128MB of VRAM.

With those crappy specs, they were able to push out a game with volumetric smoke, volumetric lighting, environmental destruction, etc. The textures and geometric quality don't measure up by today's standards but for it's specs, it's extremely impressive.



Then on the Xbox One which is weaker than the switch 2, we see that Halo 4, yes Halo 4 not 5 looks way better than MP4....
https://i.redd.it/12gtcsjnza321.png
https://i.redd.it/skobe2ijizr51.jpg

Now we look at MP4 on the switch 2.....

ee74dUoFi7YAMf5o.jpg

UwafA0F3hi9Snxea.jpg


We already know the Switch 2 is way more capable that this garbage. MP4 is just a reflection of Nintendo's technical ability which is to say garbage. They've be running behind the big boys in tech to give themselves more time to get up to speed in the HD era. 2 gens into the HD era and they still can't make a technically impressive game.
 
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Feel Like I'm On 42 said:
Why the fuck are all these Switch 2 "4k" games always in reality 1440p, yet everyone acts as if they're internal resolution is "4k"
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Because Nintendo literally labels them as 4k ingame. When the only thing rendering at 4k is the HUD lol.

Dishonest as fuck company. But then again, charging $80 for Mario Kart is pretty damn low. They just dont give a fuck. And why should they when stooges like John from DF go out of their way to call the game beautiful and offer literally dozens of excuses for it not pushing boundaries.

Say what you will about Alex, but that guy calls out bad PC ports, poor practices from Nvidia and AMD, and generally only pleases games that actually do deserve to be praised. John specializes in glazing which is why there is a such a big disconnect between DF and this thread nowadays. We just dont value the same things anymore.
 
Myuni said:
I have just watched the Skill Up MP4 review.



The graphics are somewhat disappointing. Materials and lighting can be done way better on Switch 2.
IMO the desert track in Fast Fusion (yeah, 30 FPS and heavily upscaled) looks far better, more detailed.
I'm still impressed with the overall fidelity and playability of Fast Fusion, a true Switch 2 showcase.

MP4 shot (captured from Skill Up review):
9qfpHyHrCdeXFLyo.jpg


Fast Fusion:
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AcHIYSUH8gXeX23K.jpg
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Really good looking game. However, this is on the opposite end of the spectrum in that its resolution is too low for the Switch 2 and it ends up hurting the visuals. I can appreciate the devs wanting to push the visuals but if the game is running at 360p internally, no DLSS technique is going to make it look good. I mean their docked modes had internal resolutions of 506p, 540p and 640p upscaling to 1080p, 1440p and 4k. like what were they thinking.
 
SlimySnake said:
All of those sources are people just speculating. None of those are direct sources.





Maybe this retard should've asked the studio seeing as how he's in the industry and should just be able to pick up the phone and ask from the horse's mouth instead of speculating and going by credits.


And every game outsources. We did this a few weeks ago. Exp 33 had around 400 dev credits, which is very low compared to other game studios like Obsidian who had 1,300 to 1,500 people credited in the post game credits. Means nothing really. The main animations, storytelling, music, combat, level design is done inhouse. You really think Neil and ND are outsourcing their level design that they spend 18-24 months perfecting to some korean or indian slave labor? Same is true for CD Project which used 1,500 devs for Cyberpunk when the core studio was roughly around 500 devs.

If outsourcing was so amazing at producing games like Expedition 33 then fucking Sony, MS and Nintendo studios would be cranking out those animations and graphics and storytelling because they outsource 5x more. I can promise you the real talent comes from inhouse and they are the ones who came up these incredible animations with korean dudes providing support to iron out some kinks here and there.
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Holy cherry picking my dude :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I don't know what to tell you, you seem adamant on dying on that hill.

I'll just point something to you, is speculation still speculation when it is based on hard evidence (the game's credits) ?

But as i said earlier if you'd rather believe something else, just believe, and act like you know, this is your way to shine (on this topic at least) !

GymWolf said:
Stay calm and chill guys.
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I've been away for a few days, im fired up :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Screaming Ice Hockey GIF by NHL


Jokes aside we should not be spending so much time talking about switch 2 ugly graphics because as slimy said it is a last gen tier of console and this thread is this gen tier.

How can we dismiss Fatekeeper without even really talking about it a few pages ago, then spend 4 pages wall texting each other about last gen looking games on switch II ?

GymWolf said:
Who the fuck outsource combat mechanics?

This stuff is usually homemade.
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Someone who has no experience with designing combat mechanics, a newbie dev (one point for slimy arguably), or maybe lazy french devs who know koreans will do a better job than them (one point for me)
 
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SABRE220 said:
And with that reconstructed resolution, it still looks a generation ahead of Metroid 4 and isn't far off the campaign in sheer fidelity outside Image quality. Funny part was no one noticed for months until Digital foundry started pixel counting and found out. Nintendo fans have been shouting that reconstruction or native doesn't matter as long as the game looks great, no?





What are you even arguing...., Halo 4 is the same game with comparable fidelity to Metroid 4 and is able to run at a solid 1080p 60fps easily on a much weaker Xbox One. They could have done much better with a much more impressive Switch2 in comparison, is the point.

The fact remains they could have done hell of a lot more than simply throw out a switch game looking like Halo 4 upressed and upframed...the next Metroid mainstay showcase game deserved much better, as a massive Metroid fan who witnessed Metroid Prime on the GameCube dropping jaws the drop in ambition and quality is depressing. They could have easily made the game even 1080p reconstructed with DLSS and added fidelity instead of taking the easy way out.
Click to expand...
Metroid Prime 4 is 99% a SW1 (so PS360+ graphics lvl game) game running at 1440p/60fps or 1080p/120fps. KZ Shadow is a PS4 game running at potato 1080/30fps.

Fidelity includes resolution and Halo 4 on XOne is 1080p 60fps with X360 graphics. MP4, again is 99% a SW1 game running at 1080p/120fps or 1440p/60fps.

So, what are you even arguing about as none of them are in the same level???
 
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FalconPunch said:
ee74dUoFi7YAMf5o.jpg

UwafA0F3hi9Snxea.jpg


We already know the Switch 2 is way more capable that this garbage. MP4 is just a reflection of Nintendo's technical ability which is to say garbage. They've be running behind the big boys in tech to give themselves more time to get up to speed in the HD era. 2 gens into the HD era and they still can't make a technically impressive game.
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Nintendo really shot themselves in the foot having MP4 as some kind of showcase for the power of Switch 2. I know it's actually a Switch 1 game, but the general audiences don't. They should really have stopped Retro from inserting the desert hub area. I would have vastly preferred a spaceship cutscene
 
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Trilobit said:
Nintendo really shot themselves in the foot having MP4 as some kind of showcase for the power of Switch 2. I know it's actually a Switch 1 game, but the general audiences don't. They should really have stopped Retro from inserting the desert hub area. I would have vastly preferred a spaceship cutscene
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That's the neat part, they literally don't have any showcase games. Everything up to this day has been uprezzed/cross-gen Switch 1 stuff.
 
Gonzito Gonzito

I played Routine for about ~1.5h yesterday, it looks like a walking simulator with puzzles so far. I like games like that for sure they are not for everyone. Maybe game changes drastically later but I doubt it.

KAuOTcT.jpeg


This is with minimum brightness by the way.
 
Alex11 said:
Nah, though I agree that the percentage is a bit bigger towards 3rd.
You can't say to a FPS lover that games are better in 3rd, no way.

1st person is also more personal, more immersive, that's just a truth.
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Many of the greatest games are first person, especially PC classics. I can't imagine Kingdom Come Deliverance in third person, would just be a totally different feel and as you say wold take away from the immersion. Because Sony doesn't make FPS games anymore it seems they've really fallen out of favour these days, at least on gaf.
 
Senua said:
Many of the greatest games are first person, especially PC classics. I can't imagine Kingdom Come Deliverance in third person, would just be a totally different feel and as you say wold take away from the immersion. Because Sony doesn't make FPS games anymore it seems they've really fallen out of favour these days, at least on gaf.
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Exactly, you can't beat immersion/realism in 1st p. Also, in horror games, the survival/action types I prefer them in 3rd p, but if you really want that true horror experience, again, 1st p.
 
icecold1983 said:
Yes it has. Those animations look bog standard for any AC game post Unity as an example.



Absolute trash by the budgetary standards in play.
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Avatar was developed by a completely different studio. Hell, it's on a completely different engine. And no, the animations don't look alike at all outside of them both being 3rd person videogame animations.
 
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Just bought Dying Light The Beast after they finally added Raytracing with the latest update.

RTGI makes a massive difference in the visuals in this game, and RT reflections makes materials much more realistic.
Here a couple of screenshot I took in 4K Ultrawide (5160*2160 with DLDSR), Raytracing and Reshade on PC:

NQgg65I.jpeg

WjZn1jI.jpeg

A8pwgvG.jpeg

62Cvfnn.jpeg

gm3w6B4.jpeg

1jO6mPi.jpeg
 
RavionUHD said:
Just bought Dying Light The Beast after they finally added Raytracing with the latest update.

RTGI makes a massive difference in the visuals in this game, and RT reflections makes materials much more realistic.
Here a couple of screenshot I took in 4K Ultrawide (5160*2160 with DLDSR), Raytracing and Reshade on PC:

NQgg65I.jpeg

WjZn1jI.jpeg

A8pwgvG.jpeg

62Cvfnn.jpeg

gm3w6B4.jpeg

1jO6mPi.jpeg
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God damn! I'm going to have to give this a go soon.
 
I started out impressed with MP4 when playing in handheld because it hides the 1440p res with nasty aliasing and the lack of texture filtering. That first area is genuinely beautiful and one of the best looking Nintendo games at least in handheld.

Been bummed about all the 1440p (and 1080p in dk bonanza and kirby) exclusives because of the "4k"/60 marketing and EVERY gaming outlet parroting and "confirming" this. Nintendo is being deliberately misleading about this and are probably using custom TV's at preview events which are small to mask the aliasing and IQ, because as soon as I see these games on my 55 in oled its painfully clear.

Also, it's Retro, I thought they were tech wizards who would break the streak of Sw2 games having no AA and a lack of AF....I don't think there's been a Nintendo game that uses AA on Switch 2 lol ...fml. There has to be a reason ....this console docked is supposed to be similar to a ps4 pro, right? Yet they can't take Switch 1 games from 1080p to something higher than 1440p? Is this due to the memory bandwidth being too low?

Nintendo has been disgraceful in everything they've done so far on Switch 2.... from game pricing and lack of Switch 2 upgrades to graphical quality and misleading advertising. We're seeing the decline of another titan. Greed is what's ruining them just like the other two big platform holders.
 
Feel Like I'm On 42 said:
I started out impressed with MP4 when playing in handheld because it hides the 1440p res with nasty aliasing and the lack of texture filtering. That first area is genuinely beautiful and one of the best looking Nintendo games at least in handheld.

Been bummed about all the 1440p (and 1080p in dk bonanza and kirby) exclusives because of the "4k"/60 marketing and EVERY gaming outlet parroting and "confirming" this. Nintendo is being deliberately misleading about this and are probably using custom TV's at preview events which are small to mask the aliasing and IQ, because as soon as I see these games on my 55 in oled its painfully clear.

Also, it's Retro, I thought they were tech wizards who would break the streak of Sw2 games having no AA and a lack of AF....I don't think there's been a Nintendo game that uses AA on Switch 2 lol ...fml. There has to be a reason ....this console docked is supposed to be similar to a ps4 pro, right? Yet they can't take Switch 1 games from 1080p to something higher than 1440p? Is this due to the memory bandwidth being too low?

Nintendo has been disgraceful in everything they've done so far on Switch 2.... from game pricing and lack of Switch 2 upgrades to graphical quality and misleading advertising. We're seeing the decline of another titan. Greed is what's ruining them just like the other two big platform holders.
Click to expand...

Outside of the whole "Nintendo is a disgrace" part, I'm in a similar boat. I think the assets/art direction/lighting/etc.. are all solid in MP4, but it's the 1440p resolution and zero anti-aliasing that lets the game down.

Like come the fuck on, in 2025 you need to be using some type of AA in your games. For fucks sake.
 
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analog_future said:
I'm in a similar boat. I think the assets/art direction/lighting/etc.. are all solid in MP4, but it's the 1440p resolution and zero anti-aliasing that lets the game down.

Like come the fuck on, in 2025 you need to be using some type of AA in your games. For fucks sake.
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Even super light SMAA would be a nice improvement
 
analog_future said:
I'm in a similar boat. I think the assets/art direction/lighting/etc.. are all solid in MP4, but it's the 1440p resolution and zero anti-aliasing that lets the game down.

Like come the fuck on, in 2025 you need to be using some type of AA in your games. For fucks sake.
Click to expand...
And what sense can there even be for why it's not there? That's what has me perplexed here. These are Switch 1 developed games that get a res + fps boost on Switch 2 but they don't have room left over for AA? Retro studios too this isn't Nintendo of Japan.
 
Feel Like I'm On 42 said:
And what sense can there even be for why it's not there? That's what has me perplexed here. These are Switch 1 developed games that get a res + fps boost on Switch 2 but they don't have room left over for AA? Retro studios too this isn't Nintendo of Japan.
Click to expand...

I feel like Nintendo has always had this weird philosophy of avoiding AA. Makes no sense.
 
analog_future said:
I mean shit, DLSS. What's the point of the Switch 2 supporting it if they aren't going to use it.
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Amen ....i think that one can be explained with the fact that they don't care to free up resources that would cause them to have no excuse not to actually improve the Switch 2 version. They're content just doing the bare minimum and slapping the "Switch 2 Version" marketing on there. They know Youtubers will help sell these "upgrades" for them...

Remind you guys of anything? Hint: "PS5 Pro Enhanced". You don't need to improve things significantly as long as you have the marketing slogan correct. People will think they're getting a good upgrade and buy it no matter what. Sony and Nintendo understand less is more keeping us hungry for scraps.
 
analog_future said:
No it hasn't.
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no one tell him a Ubisoft studio was the first to do motion matching.

I really like the mocapped animations in AC Shadows as well. Yes, they are all canned but there are so so many of them.

Logging in to see what they've done here. The Behind the Scenes preview footage showed them adding a lot of different animations promising to rework the whole game from scratch. So its a bit odd to see the floaty animations.
 
FalconPunch said:
Forget about Killzone Shadow Fall. The truth is Killzone Shadow fall gaps MP4. The real question we need to ask is when we look at Killzone mercenary on the vita, is it more impressive considering the hardware when compare to MP4 on the Switch 2?

Metroid Prime 4 obviously looks better however when we look at the vita's specs, we see it has a quad-core ARM Cortex-A9 CPU and a quad-core PowerVR SGX543MP4+ GPU, with 512MB of RAM and 128MB of VRAM.

With those crappy specs, they were able to push out a game with volumetric smoke, volumetric lighting, environmental destruction, etc. The textures and geometric quality don't measure up by today's standards but for it's specs, it's extremely impressive.



Then on the Xbox One which is weaker than the switch 2, we see that Halo 4, yes Halo 4 not 5 looks way better than MP4....
https://i.redd.it/12gtcsjnza321.png
https://i.redd.it/skobe2ijizr51.jpg

Now we look at MP4 on the switch 2.....

ee74dUoFi7YAMf5o.jpg

UwafA0F3hi9Snxea.jpg


We already know the Switch 2 is way more capable that this garbage. MP4 is just a reflection of Nintendo's technical ability which is to say garbage. They've be running behind the big boys in tech to give themselves more time to get up to speed in the HD era. 2 gens into the HD era and they still can't make a technically impressive game.
Click to expand...

Praising these garbage while simultaneously shitting on these beauties is a sight to behold.

X2nTcib.jpeg

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MbB1Y0r.jpeg


vs
syl2tNy.jpeg


eSWpsvK.jpeg

Ixqr5H2.jpeg

3LFKrp8.jpeg
 


"Anti-aliasing is handheld by SMAA, and the results are surprisingly great. From a typical viewing distance, it genuinely does read like a native 4k image."


I guess according to John there is SMAA in MP4, but regardless, I'm sorry but what in the fuck is he talking about. The image in motion is absolutely littered with jaggies & has an objectively awful AA implementation. I could tell at a quick glance immediately that this looked nothing like a native 4k presentation.


DF just sucks nowadays. No other way to say it.
 
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analog_future said:


"Anti-aliasing is handheld by SMAA, and the results are surprisingly great. From a typical viewing distance, it genuinely does read like a native 4k image."


I guess according to John there is SMAA in MP4, but regardless, I'm sorry but what in the fuck is he talking about. The image in motion is absolutely littered with jaggies & has an objectively awful AA implementation. I could tell at a quick glance immediately that this looked nothing like a native 4k presentation.


DF just sucks nowadays. No other way to say it.
Click to expand...


SMAA and FXAA are garbage, both and using them in 2025 in a triple A game is inexcusable.

Digital Foundry is a joke, on top of that they are not reliable because they have been sponsored many times by Nintendo.
 
Senua said:
Even super light SMAA would be a nice improvement
Click to expand...

analog_future said:


"Anti-aliasing is handheld by SMAA, and the results are surprisingly great. From a typical viewing distance, it genuinely does read like a native 4k image."


I guess according to John there is SMAA in MP4, but regardless, I'm sorry but what in the fuck is he talking about. The image in motion is absolutely littered with jaggies & has an objectively awful AA implementation. I could tell at a quick glance immediately that this looked nothing like a native 4k presentation.


DF just sucks nowadays. No other way to say it.
Click to expand...


SMAA always sucked ass, it's just a bit less bad than FXAA and MLAA. It's a relict from dark times when MSAA was already dead and we were still waiting for functional form of AA (TAA that started to be popular ~2016). Why Nintendo use old as fuck engines not compatible with TAA is beyond me, even accounting for Switch 1 - it's still has modern, DX12 class feature set.

They are stuck in Wii U era level of hardware.
 
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Bojji said:
SMAA always sucked ass, it's just a bit less bad than FXAA and MLAA. It's a relict from dark times when MSAA was already dead and we were still waiting for functional form of AA (TAA that started to be popular ~2016). Why Nintendo use old as fuck engines not compatible with TAA is beyond me, even accounting for Switch 1 - it's still has modern, DX12 class feature set.

They are stuck in Wii U era level of hardware.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the alternative, TAA is much worse than SMAA.
SMAA has the problem of not being great at eliminating shimmering.
But TAA adds a lot more issues, including blurriness, disocclusion artifacts and ghosting.
 
winjer said:
The problem is that the alternative, TAA is much worse than SMAA.
SMAA has the problem of not being great at eliminating shimmering.
But TAA adds a lot more issues, including blurriness, disocclusion artifacts and ghosting.
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I won't agree with that, sure TAA has problems but it actually works like Anti Aliasing, with modern games all post AA tech (FXAA, SMAA, MLAA) is just shimmering mess. You can as well turn off any AA, similar effect - I tested this recently in RDR2.

What is better than TAA are DLSS and FSR4, even with reduced resolutions they often show better Image quality and native versions (DLAA) are much better. But I would still prefer TAA over any post AA for sure, just not with low resolution outputs (1080p), it's like a soup on screen. TAA starts to look ok around 1440p and good with 4K output.
 
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You people must have sharpness set to 3000, i haven't used AA in years...all my past 3-4 tv with sharp at 0 had basically no jaggies in most games.

Last 2 with jaggies were probably wukong and horizon 2 at launch that were razor edge sharpened to a fault...

But when i used it, smaa was my way to go.
 
Bojji said:
I won't agree with that, sure TAA has problems but it actually works like Anti Aliasing, with modern games all post AA tech (FXAA, SMAA, MLAA) is just shimmering mess. You can as well turn off any AA, similar effect - I tested this recently in RDR2.

What is better than TAA are DLSS and FSR4, even with reduced resolutions they often show better Image quality and native versions (DLAA) are much better. But I would still prefer TAA over any post AA for sure, just not with low resolution outputs (1080p), it's like a soup on screen. TAA starts to look ok around 1440p and good with 4K output.
Click to expand...

Yes, TAA works better as an AA solution than SMAA. But it's side effects are much worse.
And because SMAA doesn't ruin image quality, especially in motion, it's the better option of the 2.

DLSS4 and FSR4, though having the same basis as TAA, have results that are so much better, than they could almost be considered different technologies.
 
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