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Hawkian's Electoral Reform Series #1: Down With the Electoral College

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Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
24lXU.png


Greetings, everyone! Your resident Hawk here. In the wake of the 2012 U.S. Presidential Election, I'm going to be posting a series of threads regarding the putrid state of our electoral system and the various correctable (and often hilariously complicated) problems with voting in the United States of America. I'm going to be cribbing heavily from CPGGray, who has made the most compelling, easy-to-comprehend videos on these topics I have ever encountered. Quite honestly I'll be taking points from him wholesale. He has never said anything in a video that isn't true and verifiable, and I vouch for him wholeheartedly.

Why am I doing this, and specifically, why wait until after the election is over?

Two reasons:

  1. During election season, this stuff would by nature be discussed in terms of Man vs. Guy, and I don't want that
  2. We're all sort of hopped up on hopium and want to keep the debate going and well...
7H7TA.png


Also I won't be seen as bitching for change because my guy lost.

Yeahhhh. So anyway, first things first:
Donald Trump said:
The electoral college is a disaster for democracy.
Yep that's right. In this, Donald Trump, Jon Stewart, Megyn Kelly, Al Gore, you (well, after this thread) and I are united- the electoral college is terrible and should be abolished.

Whoa, you may be thinking. That sounds radical.

I promise you, it's the most reasonable, pragmatic and logical position to take. I feel very confident that I can convince anyone with an open mind to come around on this one, mostly with the magic of maths.

We had a couple recentish threads on it:
Al Gore and His Beard Hate the EC
What Would You Do With Your Electoral Vote?

Some backstory: I used to be an ardent defender of the EC. Even after the 2000 election, when living in my home state of Florida showed just how tragic the results of the college can be, I still maintained that it was a necessary component of our democracy. I believed that the value of allowing the small states sufficient representation at the expense of votes being unequal was worthwhile. I believed it was a necessary evil for fairness in our democracy that swing state votes would count for more, because it would keep the smallest states in the discussion, and ensure that national presidential races were competitive.

The problem is that it's a huge heaving massive crazy outrageous failure at all of these things.

Sufficient representation? FAIL.
Keeps small states part of the discussion? FAIL.
Keep presidential races competitive? FAIL*.

*It does wonders for keeping certain individual state races competitive, every damn time, but more on that later.

So why and how does the electoral college fail so hard?

Let's start by talking about this from the perspective of what happened last night.

Without even knowing how it works, we all at least know that the electoral college is the reason we have swing states. Since an electoral margin above 270 is all that is needed to win, it stands to reason that simply focusing on the swing states needed to reach that number is the most important aspect of an election. It stands further to reason that focusing a potent, well-organized ground game on those swing states would provide enormous electoral benefit, and that polling data reflecting this effort would make the result of said races quite predictable.

Enter Nate Silver:
W57Y6.jpg
u8nUo.png

His prediction on the left, actual on the right (we're still waiting on my silly-ass state to stop reading ballots upside-down or something).

Of course, I am not arguing that the electoral college is why Nate was able to be so accurate, nor that he wouldn't be able to accurately predict a race decided solely by the popular vote. What I'm saying is this: the electoral college made it very clear what Obama and his well-oiled campaign machine had to do to win. They did it, polling reflected it, and Silver predicted the outcome state-by-state accurately.

By focusing on the states needed to win and ignoring massive segments of the population entirely, the Obama campaign carved out a significant electoral victory without any regard for how many people had voted for the president. Indeed, when Obama was reelected last night, fewer people had cast a ballot for him than Mitt Romney, to the tune of a few million votes. He then extended that electoral lead into a bit of a rout, and gained a popular majority as well, but that's a discussion for a thread about how well-run the O-man's campaign was.

What's my point? Because of the electoral college, Obama knew he could ignore California and Texas. He knew he could ignore Indiana this time around. He knew he could ignore New York but not New Hampshire, but really didn't have to give New Hampshire that much attention either. He knew that he'd need to pay constant attention to Ohio, and failing to gain its votes, a safety net of other swing states (he ended up getting both). And small states? Hah. How many visits would you estimate the President made to Wyoming or Kansas? Is it 5? Too high. Is it 3? Still, too high. Is it more than zero? No, it is not. It's zero. Those two states along with 30 others did not receive a single visit from Obama during the campaign.

Every candidate understands long before election day that he will have to focus on- and only on- a small handful of states, and possibly only one, to win the election.

Whether or not you understand why this is bad yet- accept the premise for the moment that it is. Now, let's talk a little bit about how it works. Here are the Cliff's Notes:

  • The number of electoral votes each state gets is determined by its # of representatives in Congress
  • Each state gets 2 senators and 1 representative by default, so 3 is the minimum number of votes any state can have
  • The additional representatives (and thus electoral votes) are allocated roughly in proportion to the population of the state
  • If a candidate wins a majority or clear plurality of the popular vote inside a state (either 50% +1 or the highest number of votes), he or she gets 100% of that state's electoral votes- except for Nebraska and Maine who can split their EVs
  • There are a total of 538 electoral votes up for grabs
  • 270 electoral votes means that you immediately win

Here's a symbolic map of the country based on the weight each state is given in the EC:
f9VAw.png


So there's the basics. Now let's wade a little further into crazy-land:
  • Even though populations shift, the total number of electoral votes must remain the same. Thus states swap votes all the time. Florida had 27 in 2008 but 29 now, while Massachusetts donated one of its 12 to the cause of justice and fairness. -_-
  • The allocation isn't actually proportional; the smallest states get too many and the biggest states get too few
  • Washington, D.C., the national's capital, was specially granted 3 electoral votes (the same as the number of votes the smallest state has) despite not being a state
  • As we all know from 2000, there's no provision to stop a president from winning the EC but losing the popular vote (winning despite a majority of the country voting for someone else).

Hopefully you're starting to see the potential issues with this system here. Votes are not equal. The requirement that each state have at least 3 votes throws all hope for logical consistency out the window. Proportionately, Georgians should have 1 vote but get 3; Hawaii should get two votes but get 4. Where do they get them from? Our hippie friends in the west, mostly- California gets 10 fewer electoral votes than it actually should. At the same time, someone who votes in Montana has their individual vote count way more than someone who votes in California (actually 4 times as much), because their vote is a higher share of the total population of that state.

Ultimately, and this is the most egregious aspect of the system, neither of those two votes matters virtually at all- because they're strongholds for either party, there's no hope for converting a single electoral vote in either one to the other side. Thus the real vote inequality is demonstrated by this, per Nate once again:
mQVny.png


He (generously) calls it a "Return on Investment"- the likelihood that an individual's vote will be the difference between victory and defeat. It may surprise you that Nevada beats Ohio in this list considering that Ohio was the ultimate swing state this time around. That's because while Ohio was more crucial for Obama's path to victory, the lower population of Nevada meant that an individual's voters carried more weigh in determining that state's winner- and the winner of that state being Obama more likely than not meant that those voters more than any other in the country were likely to have decided who won the presidency.

As you can see we're already fairly deep into ludicrous territory, but I promise you that the insanity of the Electoral College continues:
  • Electoral votes are note actually given by the states to the candidates, but to super-awesome, special party members called Electors who vote for President in December. Nothing- nothing at all- compels these Electors to vote in a manner that reflects the wishes of their state populations. If they so chose, the Electors could wage a fully-constitutional bloodless coup, installing as President the loser of the electoral college vote in the general election.
  • By taking advantage of the electoral college and winning states without caring about people, you could theoretically win the presidency with a whopping 22% of the vote. Yes, you could become elected even though 70%+ of the country voted against you.
  • Since they have no electoral votes, residents of the U.S. territories (Guam, Virgin Islands, stc) cannot vote for president in any way. In fact, even full natural-born U.S. citizens who move to the territories cannot cast a vote for president, which makes them the only place in the universe an American is not allowed to vote. You can vote while traveling abroad to any foreign country to be sent to your home state, and you can vote from motherfucking space. "Hawkian, is that even a big deal?" 2.2 million people live in the territories. That's more votes than the popular vote margin for Gore in 2000... and a hell of a lot more than the 537 that (sort of) determined the electoral winner.

Yeeeep.

tl;dr: The electoral college sucks out loud. It may once have been a solid, fair idea for our nation, but in its present form it is indefensible, a blight on the will of the voters and anathema to democracy.

I've left quite a few things out, specifically the arguments for keeping the electoral college and their rebuttals (mostly because I'd like to see if they come up in this discussion), as well as what we'd replace the electoral vote with, and changes that would need to be made to our voting system to avoid new problems under a straight popular vote (that last one will be within the scope of another thread).

So, GAF: Do you support the electoral college?
 
We need to drop out of the electoral college. Coming from a far left state, my vote is meaningless. I feel disenfranchised.
This hasn't always been my position, but things change. Sometimes overnight.
 

Tomat

Wanna hear a good joke? Waste your time helping me! LOL!
But the "good guy" won. Clearly this system works.
 
i think it should be gone. how do we get rid of it? your post didn't get to that part, Hawkian!

Simply count up actual votes? Majority rules.

It's a flawed system when majority of the US can vote for someone, yet they don't get elected because of an archaic system that technology has made redundant.
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
A few thoughts:

-Nobody cared about election reform when the Supreme Court hijacked the 2000 election. Didn't care til Obama got reelected.

-If we are going to talk about reform then we need to start with financing.

-Popular vote won't fix any problem people have

-Popular vote will also result in rural areas being ignored even more than they are now.
 

pigeon

Banned
Counterpoint: The EC in its current iteration gives Democrats an advantage.

Probably not that accurate, or we'd see Republicans overperforming in the PV (and thus splits) more often.

Eliminating the EC would change the result of exactly one election in the last hundred years, and the Democrats would gain it.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
I have to admit: Until this election, I hated the electoral college, and only really changed my mind several weeks ago, when I realized that it would ensure Obama's re-election.

But honestly, it needs to go. It really has no place in modern politics, gives far too much power and importance to smaller states, and leads to political candidates pandering to the wishes of certain states every election.

I believe that the popular vote should determine the president, but before this can be allowed to happen, some changes should be made:

1. Election Day should be on a Sunday. The fact that it's on a weekday ever year leads to it being much more difficult for low-income citizens to vote.
2. Early voting should last three weeks and exist in every state. It should be illegal to cancel early voting for certain days.
3. All US citizens who are 18 or over and are permanent residents of the United States should be allowed to vote. All adult citizens should automatically be registered voters.
4. No candidate should be allowed to spend more than $100,000 of his or her own money on a campaign, contributions to PACs should be limited to one million dollars, and 527s should be outlawed. Also, all campaign ads created by groups not affiliated with a campaign must first be screened by a nonpartisan fact-checking committee.
5. The federal government should have a national "get out to vote" campaign ever year, with a budget that is made up of tax money and donations.
 

Guevara

Member
Nationwide recounts. Can't wait for that.

Also: Florida is still not done counting. Going to popular vote rules will take longer to get results.


--


One fantasy plus would be federal, instead of state, oversight of election policy and voting machines. Which could theoretically do wonders for protecting voters' rights.
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
Huge post, without posting a possible solution. Nice.

I'll propose a three part solution:
1. Make it so electorates are decided as (Highest State Population/Lowest State Population) + 2. This will at least make each state more proportional, while still giving a boost to lower population states.
2. Make all states divide out their votes by percentage similar to Nebraska and Maine.

Third Party Optional:
3. Acceptance voting. When electing officials, just put a check next to every candidate you would be okay with having as president. Want to show support for Jill Stein, but still protect Obama? Pick them both!
 
The EC is also a deterrent for voting. So many just decide to not vote because they believe their vote won't count. People who live in a district or state area which is dominated by one party often say "why bother" with voting since their vote has no chance of counting for the president as their state is a certain color. Tons of votes are lost this way.
 
Isn't the entire US presidential election is like, totally tribal and 200 years old late, stuck in the past and generations past from the realities and the fairness of today world standarts ?

I mean, they have to count the votes. By hands. We send observers in Russia but after each elections and fraud, why not send in the US too ?
 
At this point I don't see why the USA needs a President, the country is way too big and diverse for one being to represent them all.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Keep the EC, have states award their state EVs proportionately based on state vote

+ Better representation of diversity of opinion in states, no more red/blue states
+ Still provides security mechanism for smaller states against California, Texas, NY, Florida.
+ Being awarded statewide presents EVs from being gerrymandered the way a district by district award would be.
 

Blader

Member
The EC is also a deterrent for voting. So many just decide to not vote because they believe their vote won't count. People who live in a district or state area which is dominated by one party often say "why bother" with voting since their vote has no chance of counting for the president as their state is a certain color. Tons of votes are lost this way.

I have absolutely nothing to base this on other than gut feeling, but I feel like a lot of people who don't vote out of a "why bother" attitude don't even really know about the electoral college in the first place.
 
Keep the EC, have states award their state EVs proportionately based on state vote

+ Better representation of diversity of opinion in states, no more red/blue states
+ Still provides security mechanism for smaller states against California, Texas, NY, Florida.
+ Being awarded statewide presents EVs from being gerrymandered the way a district by district award would be.
I'm for that.
 
Keep the EC, have states award their state EVs proportionately based on state vote

+ Better representation of diversity of opinion in states, no more red/blue states
+ Still provides security mechanism for smaller states against California, Texas, NY, Florida.
+ Being awarded statewide presents EVs from being gerrymandered the way a district by district award would be.
This is good.
 
I have absolutely nothing to base this on other than gut feeling, but I feel like a lot of people who don't vote out of a "why bother" attitude don't even really know about the electoral college in the first place.

There is truth in them often being not the brightest as they still have other things to vote on of importance on election day, but knowing the electoral college also points out how true it is to an extent. Lot of folks just don't care to learn about anything on the ballot other than whose running for president, and the EC pretty much means that in certain territories, your vote is not going to make a difference. It is quite common for folks to turn in ballots that are not completely filled as they only know or care about the president vote and a select few others they might be aware of.
 
Get rid of the EC. If you're doing it proportionally based on the state wide votes then what's the point of having the EC at all?

Trump only wanted to get rid of the EC because at the time the election was called for Obama, Romney had a lead in the popular vote. Using him as a source is pretty laughable.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I have absolutely nothing to base this on other than gut feeling, but I feel like a lot of people who don't vote out of a "why bother" attitude don't even really know about the electoral college in the first place.

This is true; people measure political efficacy based on the outputs of the system rather than the structure of the system that generates the outputs.
 
Stump's got it. Eradicating the EC completely and going to a popular vote seems nice at first, but has a plethora of problems. And good luck to republicans when the CA votes roll in.
 

jstevenson

Sailor Stevenson
Hopefully you're starting to see the potential issues with this system here. Votes are not equal. The requirement that each state have at least 3 votes throws all hope for logical consistency out the window. Proportionately, Georgians should have 1 vote but get 3; Hawaii should get two votes but get 4. Where do they get them from? Our hippie friends in the west, mostly- California gets 10 fewer electoral votes than it actually should. At the same time, someone who votes in Montana has their individual vote count way more than someone who votes in California (actually 4 times as much), because their vote is a higher share of the total population of that state.

This reflects the original compromise between small states and large states. If I'm a Nebraskan, I have a much more powerful voice in terms of electing a senator to the US Senate due to the population.

My voice in electing a member to the house is similar to anyone else.

Small states get a small advantage here, one that is part of the very fabric of our Republic's founding.

He (generously) calls it a "Return on Investment"- the likelihood that an individual's vote will be the difference between victory and defeat. It may surprise you that Nevada beats Ohio in this list considering that Ohio was the ultimate swing state this time around. That's because while Ohio was more crucial for Obama's path to victory, the lower population of Nevada meant that an individual's voters carried more weigh in determining that state's winner- and the winner of that state being Obama more likely than not meant that those voters more than any other in the country were likely to have decided who won the presidency.

Well, of course this is true when things are relatively decided. It doesn't mean those other votes WEREN'T important, it just means these other elections are MORE important. Look at the balance of power in the House or the Senate, certain people in the country will have FAR more control over that by virtue of being in an election that can change that balance vs. others who aren't.


As you can see we're already fairly deep into ludicrous territory, but I promise you that the insanity of the Electoral College continues:
  • Electoral votes are note actually given by the states to the candidates, but to super-awesome, special party members called Electors who vote for President in December. Nothing- nothing at all- compels these Electors to vote in a manner that reflects the wishes of their state populations. If they so chose, the Electors could wage a fully-constitutional bloodless coup, installing as President the loser of the electoral college vote in the general election.


  • This is as the framers' intended though, to have each state elect its own set of wise electors. Besides, no one gets on this ballot without being committed and it's very rare anyone has switched.

    [*]By taking advantage of the electoral college and winning states without caring about people, you could theoretically win the presidency with a whopping 22% of the vote. Yes, you could become elected even though 70%+ of the country voted against you.

    Not really feasible, kind of a straw man in that it'd have to break perfectly. Again though, this isn't an issue with the electoral college as much as it is with the States in how they choose to distribute their electors. Move to a district or proportional model (ala Nebraska and Maine) and you'd eliminate this.

    [*]Since they have no electoral votes, residents of the U.S. territories (Guam, Virgin Islands, stc) cannot vote for president in any way. In fact, even full natural-born U.S. citizens who move to the territories cannot cast a vote for president, which makes them the only place in the universe an American is not allowed to vote. You can vote while traveling abroad to any foreign country to be sent to your home state, and you can vote from motherfucking space. "Hawkian, is that even a big deal?" 2.2 million people live in the territories. That's more votes than the popular vote margin for Gore in 2000... and a hell of a lot more than the 537 that (sort of) determined the electoral winner.

Shucks. Bummer, that's what you get for not living in an actual state (if this upsets you, vote to become a state, ala Puerto Rico). The President is the head of the states, and is the winner of a series of 50 state elections. Not the winner of the federal election.

Yeeeep.

tl;dr: The electoral college sucks out loud. It may once have been a solid, fair idea for our nation, but in its present form it is indefensible, a blight on the will of the voters and anathema to democracy.

I've left quite a few things out, specifically the arguments for keeping the electoral college and their rebuttals (mostly because I'd like to see if they come up in this discussion), as well as what we'd replace the electoral vote with, and changes that would need to be made to our voting system to avoid new problems under a straight popular vote (that last one will be within the scope of another thread).

So, GAF: Do you support the electoral college?

This isn't a Democracy, it's a representative Republic. The Federal Government serves the fifty states that make up the union. Those 50 states each are required to hold their own election for president by selecting electors to elect said President.

If you have a complaint, its with the 48 states that still go winner take all. The states have the power to change how they set their electors. A proportional or district system alleviates a lot of what you're talking about (BATTLEGROUND DISTRICTS!!!!) by at least spreading it out more.

Regardless of that, undermining the compromise between the states isn't the right move, nor sustainable. America is incredibly diverse with a lot of different people having different ways of voting, localizing the elections to states may certainly make some more important than others (or in a proportional system, certain districts).

That said, you go popular vote, and only the mega metropolitan areas will be important. I doubt New Hampshire or Iowa would ever see visitors again outside of caucuses.
 
A few thoughts:

-Nobody cared about election reform when the Supreme Court hijacked the 2000 election. Didn't care til Obama got reelected.

-If we are going to talk about reform then we need to start with financing.

-Popular vote won't fix any problem people have

-Popular vote will also result in rural areas being ignored even more than they are now.

Pretty sure it was a massive issue - until 9/11. People certainly cared regarding the circumstances of the Bush/Gore election.
 

Irnbru

Member
Keep the EC, have states award their state EVs proportionately based on state vote

+ Better representation of diversity of opinion in states, no more red/blue states
+ Still provides security mechanism for smaller states against California, Texas, NY, Florida.
+ Being awarded statewide presents EVs from being gerrymandered the way a district by district award would be.

Proportion I thought would always be the best way to handle the EV's
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Constitutionally, I don't think the electors are even required to cast their votes based on the election results. The founding fathers wanted a check against the possibility of a person or group with bad intentions exploiting a large but uninformed voting population to gain the presidency.
 
The electoral college fails because candidates only visit about 5 states every goddamn election after the primaries are over. It was actually intended to STOP that kind of stuff. At a minimum, I would change the EC votes for every state to be cast per congressional district. I think a couple of states do that already.

Keep the EC, have states award their state EVs proportionately based on state vote

+ Better representation of diversity of opinion in states, no more red/blue states
+ Still provides security mechanism for smaller states against California, Texas, NY, Florida.
+ Being awarded statewide presents EVs from being gerrymandered the way a district by district award would be.


Or this. Especially helps with bullet #3 whereas my proposal does not.

Or lastly...straight up popular vote. Winner takes all. Each candidate could decide how best they want to strategize to get the most votes. And votes in predominately red or blue states that go against the majority might count again.
 
Constitutionally, I don't think the electors are even required to cast their votes based on the election results. The founding fathers wanted a check against the possibility of a person or group with bad intentions exploiting a large but uninformed voting population to gain the presidency.

It depends on the state. Most states legally require an elector to cast the vote according to the election results. I think there have been a few rare instances of electors protesting a result and not voting according to the election results.
 

LuffyZoro

Member
People saying that political spending on advertising is out of control are misguided. Yes, Romney and Obama combined raised about $1.4 billion dollars to be spent on their campaigns. However, they have to compete with other groups and companies for advertising, like General Motors ($1.78 b), Verizon + AT&T ($3.5 b), and L'Oreal ($1.34 b).
 
That said, you go popular vote, and only the mega metropolitan areas will be important. I doubt New Hampshire or Iowa would ever see visitors again outside of caucuses.

But what's the alternative? I live in Illinois and you can be damn sure we never see anyone because we're not a "battleground" state.
 

Mike M

Nick N
If we can't do direct elections for president, state-wide proportional allotment is an acceptable substitution in my view.

Other components of my ideal election system:
-Instant run-off voting
-Minimum of two weeks of early voting prior to Election Day (instead of moving it to a weekend or making it a federal holiday)
-Day-of registration.
-On demand absentee ballots.
 

Machine

Member
Getting rid of the EC will disenfranchise voters in every smaller or less populous state. If an attempt was made to disenfranchise a minority group in such a manner, people would start screaming like crazy. Any argument that that it's different because people can't choose the color of their skin or their sexual orientation but they can choose where they live is ridiculous. Should everyone fucking move to LA, Chicago or NYC just so their vote counts?
 

Slime

Banned
Stuff I want more:

-standardized, nationwide ballots
-same mandatory amount of early voting hours for every state
-more polling places, enough in each state to cut down on lines
-make Election Day a federal holiday

It'll probably never happen because Republicans benefit from all those headaches, but a federal mandate to take control of elections from the states and make them more functional would do wonders to get people more engaged. That's the way it should be, and that's probably why it never actually will be.
 
Stuff I want more:

-standardized, nationwide ballots
-same mandatory amount of early voting hours for every state
-more polling places, enough in each state to cut down on lines
-make Election Day a federal holiday

It'll probably never happen because Republicans benefit from all those headaches, but a federal mandate to take control of elections from the states and make them more functional would do wonders to get people more engaged. That's the way it should be, and that's probably why it never actually will be.

Yes. The fact that each state does it different only helps to fuck up voting.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Getting rid of the EC will disenfranchise voters in every smaller or less populous state. If an attempt was made to disenfranchise a minority group in such a manner, people would start screaming like crazy. Any argument that that it's different because people can't choose the color of their skin or their sexual orientation but they can choose where they live is ridiculous. Should everyone fucking move to LA, Chicago or NYC just so their vote counts?

Hence the problem with the popular vote. You win all the big cities in the US by high enough margins and the election is pretty much over.
 
Getting rid of the EC will disenfranchise voters in every smaller or less populous state. If an attempt was made to disenfranchise a minority group in such a manner, people would start screaming like crazy. Any argument that that it's different because people can't choose the color of their skin or their sexual orientation but they can choose where they live is ridiculous. Should everyone fucking move to LA, Chicago or NYC just so their vote counts?

Please explain how getting rid of the EC disenfranchises anyone. Their vote actually counts the same as everyone else's. Right now 43 out of 50 states are "disenfranchised" because voters in the minority party for a very red or blue state aren't heard.

Edit: I've read your comments again and really don't understand. How is a vote in Vermont worth less than a vote in Chicago in a direct vote situation?
 
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