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HD discussion #18902471: CRT vs. LCD vs. Plasma

T

terrene

Banned
I was hoping to get the thoughts of more experienced HD connoisseurs on the pros/cons of the three TV formats, while I do the market research before "going HD."

My rules:

1) I want to be able to show low-fi images (480i) decently without ugly upscaling. I still have a lot of stuff on VHS that will never make it to DVD. Also, my NES still enjoys a spot in the living room.

2) It's got to be 1080i or 1080p. I'm going to own all three next gen consoles for various reasons (the XB360 for media center, the PS3 for HD DVDs, the Rev for the back catalog), but I am *so* not downscaling the HD DVDs in the PS3. As a film nerd I cannot abide that (even though right now I'm a lowly 4:3 480i user).


3) Gotta have HDMI. Digital to digital = no quality loss on the PS3, which I'll be using for movies.

4) I refuse to use rear-projection anything. I can't stand how the screen looks dim from certain angles.


----------

How I understand the pros/cons of the three. Please correct me if I am wrong or if my "fave TV" is bad or violates any of "the rules:"

-----------

CRT:
+ Since it's analog, images are infinitely rescalable without being digitally sodomized, so rule #1 is no problem.
+ CRT currently only goes up to 1080i, but Sony has "hi-scan" interlaced mode that supposedly eliminates the "jittering." Also, some CRTs have 720p to downscale to in case it's just gotta be progressive scan.
+ CRTs are fucking huge and heavy.
+ CRTs are a lot cheaper than LCD and Plasma.

My favorite CRT: Sony KV-30HS420. (1080i)

------------

LCD:

+ LCD is inherently progressive. (I'm confused on this point, because many monitors support the interlaced modes. Is it digitally rescanned to the native mode in these cases?)
+ LCD already goes up to 1080p.
+ LCD has most of the clarity of plasma, but last a lot longer.
+ Because LCD's have a sort of "native resolution" (the screen space is physically divided into a grid by the crystals) digital upscaling and downscaling will take place for non-native modes, possibly violating rule #1.
+ LCD has problems with color brilliance and the blacks are supposedly not very deep.
+ LCD monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ LCD is more expensive than CRT, but less expensive than Plasma.

My favorite LCD TV: The Hitachi 32HDL51 (1080p)

-----------------

Plasma:

+ As far as image clarity and color brilliance go, they are second to none.
+ Like LCDs, Plasma TVs have a native resolution, digital upscaling will take place, rule #1 might be a problem.
+ After 4 years or so things get sketchy; the plasma may be "dead" (or something) and the TV will need either major servicing or replacement.
+ Plasma monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ Plasma is expensive as fuck.
+ The futue of plasma TVs is currently in question.

My fave Plasma TV: The Hitachi 42HDT51 (1080p)
 
If you are going to be using Blu Ray PS3 for hi def movies you need a 1080P set. None of these sets will output at 1080P resolution. The bad thing about upcoming 1080P sets is it sounds like they have 1080i inputs via HDMI. Which makes zero sense to me. If you want Blu Ray PS3 movie usage at full capability I suggest waiting a year or so and seeing how the new 1080P sets flesh out.
 
I think that plasma is cheaper than LCD.

Anyways, if you got the funds, go LCD all the way. No burn-in, no geometry deformation whatsoever, really good colors, doesn't weight much, doesn't take much place.
 
Hey I have that CRT , there is a newer model that comes in black that does 720p and is only a few hundred more. Well you could always do what I did, I got the crt for the living room and a 20" Lcd for the bedroom.... I love em both
 
Something else to keep in mind that you didn't mention: burn in. From what I understand, DLP/LCD are the only immune to this (actually, I think LCD's are somewhat, someone correct me if I'm wrong). Plasma is slow to burn in, but it can happen, and of course CRT's are totally susceptable to it. However, I own a CRT (a Hitachi 53" Ultravision widescreen) and have played games on it for over a year now without any hint of burn in.

If you calibrate your set correctly, especially turning the contrast down a ton from the factory setting, you should be good to go.

As for which set is best to get? Well, only you can really decide that by demoing and picking what you like best. If I had to buy a new one right now, I'd go DLP no question. Neither my wife nor I can see the "rainbow" effect while watching them, and DLP is immune from burn in.

Nate
 
terrene said:
Plasma:

+ As far as image clarity and color brilliance go, they are second to none.
+ Like LCDs, Plasma TVs have a native resolution, digital upscaling will take place, rule #1 might be a problem.
+ After 4 years or so things get sketchy; the plasma may be "dead" (or something) and the TV will need either major servicing or replacement.
+ Plasma monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ Plasma is expensive as fuck.
+ The futue of plasma TVs is currently in question.

My fave Plasma TV: The Hitachi 42HDT51 (1080p)
Click to expand...

- With earlier models, that didn't have screen saving management controls, burn in would be a problem. Since then, the issue has been resolved such that the life time of newer plsama models can be more in the region of 30,000 hours... which is about 10 years of use at 8 hours a day, everyday.

- Plasma are actually the cheapest in cost per inch direct viewing display... that is a display that doesn't rely on optical parts to enlarge the image... at least for the larger screen sizes which CRTs don't come in.
 
Why didn't you include DLP? It's got some of the better features of CRT's, but are not super heavy, nor do they have a HUGE footprint. Not sure of all the issues besides the "rainbow effect", but they seem to strike a good balance.
 
Geek said:
Why didn't you include DLP? It's got some of the better features of CRT's, but are not super heavy, nor do they have a HUGE footprint. Not sure of all the issues besides the "rainbow effect", but they seem to strike a good balance.
Click to expand...

Rainbow Effect is about gone now, the new samsung models are susposed to be awesome

Huge info page on the new samsung sets for 2005
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=493443
 
Geek said:
Why didn't you include DLP? It's got some of the better features of CRT's, but are not super heavy, nor do they have a HUGE footprint. Not sure of all the issues besides the "rainbow effect", but they seem to strike a good balance.
Click to expand...


He doesn't like Rear projection sets. I can't blame him, either. I shopped around for TV sets yesterday, and liked a couple DLPs like the Mits and JVC D-ILA set. But when I viewed the TVs from a slight angle the picture is noticably worse. If you aren't viewing anywhere but head on the DLP sets don't look nearly as nice. One thing that did impress me though were how the Sony RPTV LCD sets looked at angles. They looked like they didn't lose anything when I looked at them from side to side.
 
Mrbob said:
He doesn't like Rear projection sets. I can't blame him, either. I shopped around for TV sets yesterday, and liked a couple DLPs like the Mits and JVC D-ILA set. But when I viewed the TVs from a slight angle the picture is noticably worse. If you aren't viewing anywhere but head on the DLP sets don't look nearly as nice. One thing that did impress me though were how the Sony RPTV LCD sets looked at angles. They looked like they didn't lose anything when I looked at them from side to side.
Click to expand...

Thats just false, at least on the new DLP's
Viewing angle side to side is about 180 degrees, however verticle angle is true, however to most that issue is moot.
 
Mrbob said:
It is a true 1080P set too.
Click to expand...
I'm unclear on there being "1080p supported" TVs and "true 1080p" TVs. Does "1080p supported" mean that they will accept the signal, but simply "downscan" them to 1080i?
 
Thats just false, at least on the new DLP's
Viewing angle side to side is about 180 degrees, however verticle angle is true, however to most that issue is moot.
Click to expand...

So the viewing angle is better on the new fall 2005 DLP sets? I hope so. The picture on the DLP sets I looked at were noticably darker from side viewing angles. I even had my buddies double check at angles to make sure I wasn't going crazy and seeing things.



terrene said:
I'm unclear on there being "1080p supported" TVs and "true 1080p" TVs. Does "1080p supported" mean that they will accept the signal, but simply "downscan" them to 1080i?
Click to expand...

From what I've been reading the new Samsung and Mitsubishi sets offer true 1080P output resolution on screen. But the HDMI input on both TVs only accepts 1080i input. Which means the sets just upscale the picture. To me, it makes zero sense to have a 1080i HDMI input on a 1080P set. From Sony's press release the SXRD sets are going to true 1080P sets. Which means they should have 1080P inputs. But we won't know for sure until it is released.
 
Mrbob said:
So the viewing angle is better on the new fall 2005 DLP sets? I hope so. The picture on the DLP sets I looked at were noticably darker from side viewing angles. I even had my buddies double check at angles to make sure I wasn't going crazy and seeing things.
Click to expand...


I'm going by what the forum posts at AVS were saying from the CES show,
i've yet to see one in person.. so I may be wrong.
 
It's a bad idea to play low-res (480i) systems like NES and such on an HDTV. The image will look terrible (line-doubling, upsampling, no scanlines), and the games may also suffer from input lag. That's how it is on a number of HDTVs I've tested, including my current LCD. Even PSOne games are lagged. Needless to say I'm in the process of getting an SDTV for Dreamcast and earlier.

The lag occurs because of the time it takes for the TV to perform its signal processing on the 480i input -- line-doubling and other enhancement crap. Usually can't be helped, afaik.
 
Sorry terrene I think I misunderstood your question so hopefully I'll post a better response here! :lol

You mentioned in your first post you don't want any downscaling at all for PS3 hi def movies. That means you need a 1080P native resolution set to get full glory out of the PS3 hi def movies with no downscaling. The sets you listed only accept inputs up to 1080i. Not 1080P. So, yes, all those sets will have to downscale somewhat to get the picture on the screen. Hitachis Virtual 1080p setting is interesting. I don't know much about it, though.

I notice you mention you might be willing to bend that rule about perhaps allowing some downscaling, but I'm not sure yet so I won't recommend anything else. But if you want to use the TV for gaming, a set with a native 720P resolution may not be a bad idea.
 
The thing I don't understand about plasmas is how come they say they are "HDTV ready" sets and can do 720p and 1080i even though a lot of them only have resolutions of 852 x 480 pixels??

http://www.shopping.com/xPP-Flat_Panel_Televisions----plasma~S-213~OR-0


I don't understand why people are going crazy over 1080p tvs. I seriously doubt there is going to be much 1080p content over the next 5 years. Unless you're going to use the display as a computer monitor I don't really understand how you're going to get any use out of it. I don't think content creators for any medium are going to waste time and resources making 1080p content when there are barely any tv's capable of displaying that.
 
Mrbob said:
Sorry terrene I think I misunderstood your question so hopefully I'll post a better response here! :lol

You mentioned in your first post you don't want any downscaling at all for PS3 hi def movies. That means you need a 1080P native resolution set to get full glory out of the PS3 hi def movies with no downscaling. The sets you listed only accept inputs up to 1080i. Not 1080P. So, yes, all those sets will have to downscale somewhat to get the picture on the screen. Hitachis Virtual 1080p setting is interesting. I don't know much about it, though.
Click to expand...
No worries, man, you've been a great help.

So, now I'm understanding. The screens themselves have some odd resolution like 768p, and the "Virtual 1080p" processor re-maps. Sucky. The current "true 1080p" sets on Froogle are in the $4,500 - $6,500 range which is outside the realm of sanity for me. For fuck's sake, my last car cost less than that. I can live with interlacing for that price!
 
BenT said:
It's a bad idea to play low-res (480i) systems like NES and such on an HDTV. The image will look terrible (line-doubling, upsampling, no scanlines), and the games may also suffer from input lag. That's how it is on a number of HDTVs I've tested, including my current LCD. Even PSOne games are lagged. Needless to say I'm in the process of getting an SDTV for Dreamcast and earlier.

The lag occurs because of the time it takes for the TV to perform its signal processing on the 480i input -- line-doubling and other enhancement crap. Usually can't be helped, afaik.
Click to expand...


What TV do you have?

Yeah, you're right. Any 480i source isn't going to look nearly as well on a HDTV set.
 
terrene said:
I was hoping to get the thoughts of more experienced HD connoisseurs on the pros/cons of the three TV formats, while I do the market research before "going HD."

My rules:

1) I want to be able to show low-fi images (480i) decently without ugly upscaling. I still have a lot of stuff on VHS that will never make it to DVD. Also, my NES still enjoys a spot in the living room.

2) It's got to be 1080i or 1080p. I'm going to own all three next gen consoles for various reasons (the XB360 for media center, the PS3 for HD DVDs, the Rev for the back catalog), but I am *so* not downscaling the HD DVDs in the PS3. As a film nerd I cannot abide that (even though right now I'm a lowly 4:3 480i user).


3) Gotta have HDMI. Digital to digital = no quality loss on the PS3, which I'll be using for movies.

4) I refuse to use rear-projection anything. I can't stand how the screen looks dim from certain angles.


----------

How I understand the pros/cons of the three. Please correct me if I am wrong or if my "fave TV" is bad or violates any of "the rules:"

-----------

CRT:
+ Since it's analog, images are infinitely rescalable without being digitally sodomized, so rule #1 is no problem.
+ CRT currently only goes up to 1080i, but Sony has "hi-scan" interlaced mode that supposedly eliminates the "jittering." Also, some CRTs have 720p to downscale to in case it's just gotta be progressive scan.
+ CRTs are fucking huge and heavy.
+ CRTs are a lot cheaper than LCD and Plasma.

My favorite CRT: Sony KV-30HS420. (1080i)

------------

LCD:

+ LCD is inherently progressive. (I'm confused on this point, because many monitors support the interlaced modes. Is it digitally rescanned to the native mode in these cases?)
+ LCD already goes up to 1080p.
+ LCD has most of the clarity of plasma, but last a lot longer.
+ Because LCD's have a sort of "native resolution" (the screen space is physically divided into a grid by the crystals) digital upscaling and downscaling will take place for non-native modes, possibly violating rule #1.
+ LCD has problems with color brilliance and the blacks are supposedly not very deep.
+ LCD monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ LCD is more expensive than CRT, but less expensive than Plasma.

My favorite LCD TV: The Hitachi 32HDL51 (1080p)

-----------------

Plasma:

+ As far as image clarity and color brilliance go, they are second to none.
+ Like LCDs, Plasma TVs have a native resolution, digital upscaling will take place, rule #1 might be a problem.
+ After 4 years or so things get sketchy; the plasma may be "dead" (or something) and the TV will need either major servicing or replacement.
+ Plasma monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ Plasma is expensive as fuck.
+ The futue of plasma TVs is currently in question.

My fave Plasma TV: The Hitachi 42HDT51 (1080p)
Click to expand...


That’s some impressive criteria you have there. Unfortunately, after looking it over, the TV you have specified does not exist.

1 - You specifically state no scaling from a 480i source. This means ALL DLP, Plasma, and LCD are eliminated. Your only option is CRT.

2 - It has to be 1080i or 1080p. Well, no CRT, ever, will do 1080p. The ones that exist don't even really do 1080i, they merely do a passable job at it, so it can be put on the box. So, if your happy with that compromise, then CRT is still an ok choice. If not, well no tv for you ;)

3 - HDMI should be no problem; however your goal is to watch BluRay movies at their source resolution (1080p) which your CRT set will never do.

4 - No rear projection. That’s up to you, although I think its a mistake since you are now limiting your TV's to 32"-34" or less... and at those sizes, the extra resolution you want from an HD set is wasted, unless you are 3 feet away from the TV. And even then, the 1080i on a CRT will be spotty compared to a DLP/Plasma/LCD

CRT
===
Looks good except for one major point... there are no, no NO CRT's that exist that do 720p. It doesn't happen. EVER. All CRT's do 480i/p and scale everything else to 1080i (sometimes an option to 540p). This has been a topic of much debate several times here on GAF. Do a search for it, you will find it.

LCD
===
Right on all accounts, but your information sounds outdated, specifically about the quality of the colours/blacks. I would take a good look at the tech for the new tri-LCD Sony displays coming out. But of course, they are rear projection ;)

Plamsa
=====
Again, mostly right. Whether or not your criteria fits this set doesn’t really matter... they are not affordable anyways. You can get EDTV ones for a reasonable price, but an HDTV set that does what you want is still many thousands of dollars.

Also, don't worry about the life of the screen. Yes, a Plasma TV will need some maintenance at some point. However, the viewing life is many, MANY hours. Unless you are an 8 hour a day video game addict, you don't need to worry about it.

DLP
===
What, no DLP listed here? ;) For all reasonable purposes, it follows the same rules as LCD. Used to be better colours, but LCD's have really caught up.

EDIT
====
I didn't think he needed to "specifically specify" ;)
 
BenT said:
It's a bad idea to play low-res (480i) systems like NES and such on an HDTV. The image will look terrible (line-doubling, upsampling, no scanlines), and the games may also suffer from input lag. That's how it is on a number of HDTVs I've tested, including my current LCD. Even PSOne games are lagged. Needless to say I'm in the process of getting an SDTV for Dreamcast and earlier.

The lag occurs because of the time it takes for the TV to perform its signal processing on the 480i input -- line-doubling and other enhancement crap. Usually can't be helped, afaik.
Click to expand...
I'm really not sure that's the case on CRT. It's definitely the case on LCD, Plasma, and anything where the screen has a native resolution. Running an emulator on fullscreen on an LCD monitor produces the same blurry, shitty results, right?

But the 480i on CRT 1080i should be pretty clean, yeah?
 
You're correct that it'll look better on a CRT HD display than on a fixed-pixel HD display, but the line-doubling will still occur (proper low-res needs scanlines, IMO) and you still stand the chance of input lag. The only way to ascertain whether there'll be lag or not is to test it yourself or find someone else with the set to test for you. It doesn't seem to be an issue that has really entered TV manufacturers' minds yet, if it ever will. :/ Pity the poor technophile gamer.

MrBob, I have this display. I wouldn't really recommend it for gaming. 12ms refresh is apparently not fast enough to lessen blur. It's on par with PSP blur, maybe. (I'm not sure what number Sony claims for PSP.)
 
PSP is probably 16ms or something like that. Blimblim has bought a new tv and apparently it can do 480i just fine with the faroudja deinterlacer... worth asking him.
 
Oracle Dragon said:
Well, no CRT, ever, will do 1080p.
Click to expand...
Well, there are CRT computer monitors that do 1080p, so theoretically we might see a tv set with similar support. I don't know if it's very likely though, CRT:s ain't really piping hot nowadays. Unfortunelately..

Shompola said:
PSP is probably 16ms or something like that.
Click to expand...
The red component is nowhere near that fast. Now that there's homebrewing possibilites for the machines, it would be quite easy to code up a tool that measures the response time for each color component. Hmm, that might be worth trying out as a first exercise, actually..
 
Oracle Dragon said:
CRT
===
Looks good except for one major point... there are no, no NO CRT's that exist that do 720p. It doesn't happen. EVER.
Click to expand...
BURN!

WTF, that doesn't bode well for CRT.
 
Its a Samsung HL-P5085W for me. (DLP)

One of my best electronics purchases ever. :)

bu_cnet24.jpg
 
+ After 4 years or so things get sketchy; the plasma may be "dead" (or something) and the TV will need either major servicing or replacement.
+ Plasma monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ Plasma is expensive as fuck.
+ The futue of plasma TVs is currently in question.
Click to expand...

Actually you are wrong. Companies like NEC have 15 year guarantees for their plasma provided you dont watch 24 hours a day. Plasmas are very heavy unless they use plastic instead of glass which is non existant commercially yet. They are very compact however and can be wall hung despite being massive (42"+)etc. Expensive yes but prices are falling a HDTV(720p) Panasonic costs less than a low res Panasonic Plasma a year ago. Their future is not in question. At their size nothing is better for picture quality and only second to CRT in the worst case scenarios with many advantages etc. Some companies made a mistake regarding plasma (Sony etc.) and missed the bandwagon. LCD are cheaper but the quality of picture doesnt come close to plasma.

For your main tv in the house i'd say go for plasma due to its size and quality. 1080p should be available readily by the end of the year in 50" models and 42" thereafter.


For 36" and smaller go for CRT. Plasma doesnt exist in those sizes.
 
I'm pondering going with LCOS, myself. Last year's JVC sets were pretty great for the money, and can be had for $2k now. The new ones will be out soon. In fact, I ought to head to avsforums for an update.
 
This 37" LCD seems perfect, and it's quite cheap. So cheap, in fact, that must be something wrong about it.

Maybe the HDTV experts here can advise me on this one. I'm thinking about entering the HD era, and right now I'm considering this BenQ LCD or the Samsung LN-R328W 32". Any opinions or suggestions?
 
the panasonic edtvs are excellent... for 1500 you're probably getting the industrial model which does not feature a HD tuner (so you'll need a cable or sat box, etc). you can check out their ed consumer models at the normal electronics stores
 
BenT said:
I'm pondering going with LCOS, myself. Last year's JVC sets were pretty great for the money, and can be had for $2k now. The new ones will be out soon. In fact, I ought to head to avsforums for an update.
Click to expand...


I'm reading great things about the new JVC D-ILA sets. I have it narrowed down to the new JVC D-ILA or the new Sony RPTV LCD. By the end of the year I should have one or the other and will run it through some major tests and release the results. :D
 
terrene said:
Thoroughness

I was hoping to get the thoughts of more experienced HD connoisseurs on the pros/cons of the three TV formats, while I do the market research before "going HD."

My rules:

1) I want to be able to show low-fi images (480i) decently without ugly upscaling. I still have a lot of stuff on VHS that will never make it to DVD. Also, my NES still enjoys a spot in the living room.
Click to expand...

Your ability to show 480i will not be a problem with most any HDTV. The question is, how well will it scale on your HDTV. That is almost solely dependent upon how well the manufacturer implemented scaling of SD sources. Some HDTV’s do it well, others don’t. Unless they’ve improved, a lot of the Mitsu’s that I’ve seen scale 480i content quite poorly relative to say a Hitachi. But that’s just my experience.

The key here will be to try and view actual 480i content on the HDTV’s you’re interested in. My solution would be to burn a DVD of 480i content from one of the big three- ABC, NBC, or CBS. Take that disk with you to every store you demo TV’s.


terrene said:
2) It's got to be 1080i or 1080p. I'm going to own all three next gen consoles for various reasons (the XB360 for media center, the PS3 for HD DVDs, the Rev for the back catalog), but I am *so* not downscaling the HD DVDs in the PS3. As a film nerd I cannot abide that (even though right now I'm a lowly 4:3 480i user).
Click to expand...

1080i or 1080p is fine, but I truly wouldn’t bank on much if any 1080p content (especially movies) for quite a while. A significant portion of studios aren’t hot on it yet; and you can be certain that the networks aren’t looking to upgrade again after just putting 720p/1080i into service.


terrene said:
3) Gotta have HDMI. Digital to digital = no quality loss on the PS3, which I'll be using for movies.
Click to expand...

Most all HDTV’s have either DVI or HDMI inputs now, so I wouldn’t sweat that much.

terrene said:
4) I refuse to use rear-projection anything. I can't stand how the screen looks dim from certain angles.
Click to expand...

Man, you’re really limiting your choices with this one. IMO, it’s an unwarranted condition. I imagine you’ve viewed most HD sets in show rooms, no? Well, a showroom is about the worst place you can judge the true image that any kind of display is capable of offering. It’s too bright in a lot of instances. Moreover, TV manufacturers typically crank the blues too high, to make their sets appear brighter on bright show room floors. I know you can’t do much about that, but you need to keep that in mind when you’re judging any TV.

Furthermore, you're eliminating some of the best HD sets on the market with this condition. I don't think any best display competition could be judged without a RP LCD or DLP. Especially if your intent is to view movie content as well as game.

My suggestion is try to shop stores with good return policies should you not be happy with any of your selections. Also, take a couple of movies you’re familiar with to demo any set you’re interested in. I would also consider buying AVIA or Digital Video Essentials (B&N has them) with you. That way you could do a real quick and dirty calibration to make sure that the color, contrast, sharpness, brightness, etc; aren’t completely out of whack.



----------

terrene said:
How I understand the pros/cons of the three. Please correct me if I am wrong or if my "fave TV" is bad or violates any of "the rules:"

-----------



CRT:
+ Since it's analog, images are infinitely rescalable without being digitally sodomized, so rule #1 is no problem.
+ CRT currently only goes up to 1080i, but Sony has "hi-scan" interlaced mode that supposedly eliminates the "jittering." Also, some CRTs have 720p to downscale to in case it's just gotta be progressive scan.
+ CRTs are fucking huge and heavy.
+ CRTs are a lot cheaper than LCD and Plasma.

My favorite CRT: Sony KV-30HS420. (1080i)

------------
Click to expand...

You’ve pretty much got it nailed on the CRT front. CRT’s will give you the best black level of any set. IOW, when you view a dark scene, which according to Sam Runco (founder of Runco Projectors) comprises roughly 60-70% of all movie scenes, everything won’t blend together.


terrene said:
LCD:

+ LCD is inherently progressive. (I'm confused on this point, because many monitors support the interlaced modes. Is it digitally rescanned to the native mode in these cases?)
+ LCD already goes up to 1080p.
+ LCD has most of the clarity of plasma, but last a lot longer.
+ Because LCD's have a sort of "native resolution" (the screen space is physically divided into a grid by the crystals) digital upscaling and downscaling will take place for non-native modes, possibly violating rule #1.
+ LCD has problems with color brilliance and the blacks are supposedly not very deep.
+ LCD monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ LCD is more expensive than CRT, but less expensive than Plasma.

My favorite LCD TV: The Hitachi 32HDL51 (1080p)

-----------------
Click to expand...

LCD’s are probably the worst in terms of rendering good black levels. For some this isn’t an issue- it is for me. That said, some of the new Sony LCD’s will employ their dynamic iris technology. This works to increase the contrast ratio and improve black level. I've yet to see the new Sony's, but if it works like the Panasonic projector I saw which employs basically the same technology, you would be remiss to not at least consider them.

LCD’s also fall victim to a couple of other phenomena: SDE, vertical banding, and FPN. SDE is screen door effect. It looks just like it sounds. It has to do with the with the physical spacing between the pixels; or the “grid” that you mentioned. Some manufacturers (Panasonic) have attacked this problem by slightly defocusing the picture. This can be successful as LCD’s typically have the sharpness to spare.

Vertical banding looks like small bands of slightly off-color pixel patterns which extend vertically. Some LCD’s are more prone to it than others.

FPN is fixed pattern noise. It looks like a random bit of noise throughout the image.

For a small primer and pic’s to see what all of these noise types look like go here:

TUTORIALS: Image Noise

The link really has to do with different types of noise in digital camera’s; but conceptually it’s very close.

With LCD's you also have the potential for stuck or dead pixels, so make sure you check the manufacturer's policy on this before you decide to buy one.

OTOH, LCD’s have less power consumption, razor sharp images, perfect geometry, nice form factor, and there’s no chance of burn-in like that with a CRT and plasma.






terrene said:
Plasma:

+ As far as image clarity and color brilliance go, they are second to none.
+ Like LCDs, Plasma TVs have a native resolution, digital upscaling will take place, rule #1 might be a problem.
+ After 4 years or so things get sketchy; the plasma may be "dead" (or something) and the TV will need either major servicing or replacement.
+ Plasma monitors are thin and lightweight.
+ Plasma is expensive as fuck.
+ The futue of plasma TVs is currently in question.

My fave Plasma TV: The Hitachi 42HDT51 (1080p)
Click to expand...


Plasma’s have nice images, and the form factor is great. However, like you said, plasma’s are expensive, susceptible to burn-in (bad for gaming) unless broken in properly and calibrated, and relatively quite heavy compared to a RP LCD or DLP because of all the glass. Plasma’s have similar positives picture quality-wise to LCD’s, except they probably have better overall black level. I wouldn’t worry about the panel life too much on a plasma either. If you take care of it, it’ll probably last you 10-20 years.


So, all that said, my recommendation would be to look at the new Sony RP LCD’s (KDFE42-50A10 for example) with the dynamic iris. There’s also no way in hades that I would rule a 720p set. There’s going to be a lot of 720p content- especially in games and movies for quite a while. On that premise, I would look at DLP sets because they have most of the positive attributes of LCD’s; while typically yielding better black level and contrast ratio.

The one caveat to DLP’s is the rainbow effect (see here for example). The thing is, some people see them and some people don’t. It really doesn’t affect the majority of people though.

Notwithstanding size restraints, I wouldn't rule out any display technology. The thing to remember is that every display technology has it's share of compromises. You just have to decide which compromises you're most willing to live with. :)

Good luck
 
VNZ said:
Well, there are CRT computer monitors that do 1080p, so theoretically we might see a tv set with similar support. I don't know if it's very likely though, CRT:s ain't really piping hot nowadays. Unfortunelately..
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Mitsubishi's 65" rear projection HD CRT sets will do true 1080i. The reason is, they have 9" CRT RGB guns in it.
 
Oh no I never noticed Rainbows on DLP sets before watching that Samsung vid! It's over for me and Dlps now! :lol

One thing I like about the JVC D-ILA is that JVC claims there is no rainbow effect. Is this absolutely true?
 
HokieJoe said:
1080i or 1080p is fine, but I truly wouldn’t bank on much if any 1080p content (especially movies) for quite a while. A significant portion of studios aren’t hot on it yet; and you can be certain that the networks aren’t looking to upgrade again after just putting 720p/1080i into service.
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Actually, I think you're quite wrong on this. Studios ARE DYING for the next format to come out. DVD sales growth has peaked, piracy is rampant, and they're looking for the next big source of income and incremental HD movie sales to go with DVD sales is exactly what they're looking for. They just wish there wasn't a format war going on. I think you'll see them jumping onto HD-DVD/Blu-Ray faster than they've ever jumped on any format ever once we get some clarity on the HD issue here in the next 6-8 months or so.

I do agree that networks aren't looking to upgrade for the most part. ESPN has said, they're seriously considering upgrading football to 1080p, but by-and-large, we'll have 1080i/720p broadcast for the next 5 years or so.
 
I wonder what it really takes to go from 1080i to 1080p

The only difference is one is interlaced, the other is not. To my knowledge it would not require new cameras, probably just new video hardware, which may already support it.
 
Mrbob said:
Oh no I never noticed Rainbows on DLP sets before watching that Samsung vid! It's over for me and Dlps now! :lol
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Same here, though I've never seen a DLP set before. I certainly won't buy one in the future unless that's fixed. I might just wait for CNT/FED sets since my current CRT can do 480p/1080i.

Parallax Scroll said:
Just watched the rainbow vid... would I have to shake my head like that to see them on a DLP?
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I'm assuming the video was done that way to simulate what fast moving images look like on a DLP set, so to answer your question; probably not.
 
sonycowboy said:
Actually, I think you're quite wrong on this. Studios ARE DYING for the next format to come out. DVD sales have peaked, piracy is rampant, and they're looking for the next big source of income and incremental HD movie sales to go with DVD sales is exactly what they're looking for. They just wish there wasn't a format war going on. I think you'll see them jumping onto HD-DVD/Blu-Ray faster than they've ever jumped on any format ever once we get some clarity on the HD issue here in the next 6-8 months or so.

I do agree that networks aren't looking to upgrade for the most part. ESPN has said, they're seriously considering upgrading football to 1080p, but by-and-large, we'll have 1080i/720p broadcast for the next 5 years or so.
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Well yeah, but the studios (opposed to Blu-Ray) have had 720p/1080i in the crosshairs- not 1080p. I mean, if they could get 1080p on HD-DVD, they might shoot for it, but I think 720p/1080i is the real target, because up until recently HD-DVD didn't have the capacity for 1080p. And it really only does in theory at this point because I don't know how practical it is to jam three layers on a HD-DVD disk and be able to maintain profitable production targets. That remains to be seen I guess.

Besides, if they go straight to 1080p instead of 720p/1080i, they'll be missing a complete upgrade cycle.

I agree with you on the format war though. It sucks ass because it's holding up the adoption rate of HDTV's. I also think fears of piracy has held up HD content disks as well. There's no way they want to put true HD content out there and then have it pirated hither and yon.
 
Suikoguy said:
I wonder what it really takes to go from 1080i to 1080p

The only difference is one is interlaced, the other is not. To my knowledge it would not require new cameras, probably just new video hardware, which may already support it.
Click to expand...

So the current HD film cameras have true 1080p CCD's?
 
Mrbob said:
One thing I like about the JVC D-ILA is that JVC claims there is no rainbow effect. Is this absolutely true?
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Almost certainly. I've never heard of the rainbow effect in anything but DLP sets.

I saw the RE myself on a friend's DLP during the closing credits of a movie. I mostly saw it out of the corners of my eyes and when I moved my head. Pretty odd. Not too bad if it was limited to those situations, but I can't speak for everyone on that.
 
TheDuce22 said:
Whats up with these 42 inch EDTV plasmas that have been popping up all over the place for 1500? Are they any good?
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If you dont care about the resolution they are excellent for what you want. But the newer tech is in the HD models which includes things like better colour, contrast, black level variation, digital processing etc. Having said that people love the cheaper model. If you wait the 720p models will go down in price as 1080p is round the corner.
 
Mrbob said:
Oh no I never noticed Rainbows on DLP sets before watching that Samsung vid! It's over for me and Dlps now! :lol

One thing I like about the JVC D-ILA is that JVC claims there is no rainbow effect. Is this absolutely true?
Click to expand...


AFAIK, yes.

From Projector Central- LCOS:

Well, you could think of it as a hybrid between LCD and DLP. LCD uses liquid crystals, one for each pixel, on glass panels. Light passes through these LCD panels on the way to the lens and is modulated by the liquid crystals as it passes. Thus it is a "transmissive" technology. On the other hand, DLP uses tiny mirrors, one for each pixel, to reflect light. DLP modulates the image by tilting the mirrors either into or away from the lens path. It is therefore a "reflective" technology.

LCOS combines these two ideas. It is a reflective technology that uses liquid crystals instead of individual mirrors. In LCOS, liquid crystals are applied to a reflective mirror substrate. As the liquid crystals open and close, the light is either reflected from the mirror below, or blocked. This modulates the light and creates the image.

LCOS-based projectors typically use three LCOS chips, one each to modulate light in the red, green, and blue channels. In this it is similar to an LCD projector which uses three LCD panels. Both LCOS and LCD projectors deliver the red, green, and blue components of the light to the screen simultaneously. There is no spinning color wheel used in these projectors as there is in single-chip DLP projectors.

LCOS technology is usually very high resolution, and typically higher in price than most LCD and DLP products. There is no such thing as an SVGA resolution LCOS projector, and we know of only one very rare XGA resolution machine. Generally LCOS machines begin to appear in the SXGA (1365x1024) resolution class and higher. So by definition they are not cheap.
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Just a general observation:

1. Tech is changing a lot for LCD's & plasmas & others.
....Info learned today might be invalid in a year.

2. LCDs generally can have brighter whites, whereas plasmas can have blacker blacks.
....In a lit room, LCD can look better. In a dark room, plasma can look better.

3. Nothing today supports 1080p digital input signals. Nothing (realistically).
....Next year might be different.
 
Parallax Scroll said:
Just watched the rainbow vid... would I have to shake my head like that to see them on a DLP?
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No, some people see them normally. It really all boils down to you as an individual though. Most people have to mimic a bobble-head doll to see them. I've read many accounts, obviously anecdotal, of people who saw them at first; but eventually stopped noticing them.

I think the bottom line is that for people who see them, it's a big problem. But again, most don't, so I wouldn't let that scare me away from a purchase without having experienced it first hand.
 
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