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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?

So I've been playing this new expansion and I have to the say the game has regressed. This expansion has taken the back a few steps. So few deck types out there now. The game has become a race to your God, you win. It's almost reached joke level.

Winning now is pure chance. Might as well just flip a coin.

That's like...the opposite of what the current meta is, you got -

Aggro Shaman
Evolve/Darwin/Midrange Shaman
Tempo Mage
Freeze Mage
Miracle Rouge
Zoolock
N'Zoth Paladin
Other N'zoth decks (Rogue, Priest) that are less good cuz no tirion
Assorted C'thun decks
Patron
Control Warrior
Midrange Hunter

That's quite a lot. Gods are pretty easy to play around as well, or at least develop a tactic. You can tell by turn 2 for C'thun decks, and for N'Zoth decks if they are dropping Harvest Golems or Corrupted Healbots you know whats up.
 
I think the game snowballs harder than before right now.

You listead 8/9 classes can play aggro, 9/9 classes can play midrange and 3/9 can play control but it's more like this:

Playable aggro classes: Paladin, Hunter, Shaman, Warlock, MAYBE Druid, maybe Rogue
Playable midrange classes: Druid, Hunter, Shaman, Priest, Mage, Paladin, Warrior
Playable control classes: Warlock, Priest, Paladin, Warrior
Playable combo classes: Mage, Rogue


This list makes sense because this is how Blizzard has wanted the game to be from start.. mostly midrange oriented. What they consider as "combo" no one actually considers combo because they think Patron Warrior is combo when it obviously is not (more like tempo or Midrange). What they consider as combo gets nerfed with impunity so only two combo decks remain (Freeze Mage and Miracole Rogue).

The lack of control decks is because Blizzard hasn't added good enough heals/clears/removals for most of the classes but instead just pumped more minions into the classes.

Only Warlock and Rogue don't play midrange these days unless you want to consider Renolock midrange or that Cthun Renolock. Warlock used to be able to play Midrange Demon but with no Void Caller and Malganis, their lack of solid Midrange minions is exposed. Same thing as Rogue, the powerful cards in Rogue edge towards a tempo/combo playstyle so that is the only thing Rogue has ever been good at. They can play a Nzoth Rogue now but it's not that good to be honest, there are far superior midrange decks one can play.
I haven't checked up on Egg Druid recently, but that definitely qualifies as aggro.

You're right, Mage doesn't really have an aggro meta.

Pirate Warrior is a successful aggro Warrior archetype right now, and it's one that I've lost to several times.

I'm not sure why you have no midrange Rogue. That's basically what Deathrattle Rogue was before N'Zoth was added.

Heal Aggro Priest can play midrange - I've done it and done well, and I've lost to it.

I'm skeptical about Warlock being able to play control right now.

I consider Grim Patron, Handlock, and Renolock to be combo decks, personally.
 

Dahbomb

Member
What is this combo that exists in Handlock? LMAO!

Granted there is a Combolock that exists (Emperor, Leeroy, Faceless, PO combo) but Handlock has no combo.

If those combos are combo decks then Aggro Shaman is combo because it kills you with 2x Rockbiters and Doomhammer.
 

Levi

Banned
CzewaR7.jpg


Here's what I've faced from 19-14 this season. It might feel like all I'm facing is Shaman and Zoo, but looking at the actual stats, that's not the case.

Hunter and Druid are cry.
 
So I've been playing this new expansion and I have to the say the game has regressed. This expansion has taken the back a few steps. So few deck types out there now. The game has become a race to your God, you win. It's almost reached joke level.

Winning now is pure chance. Might as well just flip a coin.

To me the only coin flip in the game is Zoolock. That is a deck that can be holding near lethal in their hand before the game even starts. If you don't have a board clear or two and some taunts you are toast. even then they can refill the board with tentacles and power overwhelm you if they are holding those cards as well.

Ugn Zoolock has to be my most dreaded deck right now to face. Instant win streak killer.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I didn't list Deathrattle Rogue under Midrange because of two reasons:

1) The actual good Deathrattle Rogue lists play more tempo/aggro oriented. That's why I had Aggro Rogue as a maybe depending on how you want to qualify that deck.

2) This archetype isn't that strong and most certainly not the dominant Rogue playstyle as of right now. Both Miracle and Malygos Rogue are better than it.


Sure, you can play a Midrangish Nzoth Deathrattle Rogue but the actual Midrange decks in the meta eat it for breakfast.

Pirate Warrior is tier 4 at best especially with no Ship's Cannon. Honestly Control Shaman is better than that.
 

fertygo

Member
Rogue will eventually have this card right

3 Mana - 2 damage to all undamaged enemy character

or

4 Mana - 3 damage to all undamaged enemy character
 
What is this combo that exists in Handlock? LMAO!

Granted there is a Combolock that exists (Emperor, Leeroy, Faceless, PO combo) but Handlock has no combo.

If those combos are combo decks then Aggro Shaman is combo because it kills you with 2x Rockbiters and Doomhammer.
Lifetap + Molten Giant + Stone Giant is a combo, as I see it. You are taking drawbacks Lifetap has and circumventing them with cards that over-benefit from them. I wonder what you define a "Combo" as, though.

I didn't list Deathrattle Rogue under Midrange because of two reasons:

1) The actual good Deathrattle Rogue lists play more tempo/aggro oriented. That's why I had Aggro Rogue as a maybe depending on how you want to qualify that deck.

2) This archetype isn't that strong and most certainly not the dominant Rogue playstyle as of right now. Both Miracle and Malygos Rogue are better than it.


Sure, you can play a Midrangish Nzoth Deathrattle Rogue but the actual Midrange decks in the meta eat it for breakfast.

Pirate Warrior is tier 4 at best especially with no Ship's Cannon. Honestly Control Shaman is better than that.
Pirate Warrior scares me, especially if they get Sir Finley at the start. I'm 1-2 against the deck right now while going full defense.

I think the rest of what you said is respectable, and we can just agree to look it in different ways.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Lightlord isn't a control win condition in general. It's a win condition against aggro but not against other control decks.

Jaraxxus, Nzoth, Cthun and Elise qualify as win conditions.

Alexstrasza + Grom is a win condition. Also Malygos.
 

Levi

Banned
Lifetap + Molten Giant + Stone Giant is a combo, as I see it. You are taking drawbacks Lifetap has and circumventing them with cards that over-benefit from them. I wonder what you define a "Combo" as, though.
.

Synergies and combos are two different things.
 
This string of posts inspires me: what are your most regretted crafting decisions in the last 2 weeks?

Hallazeal. He's fun and all when he works but since my favorite deck is C'thun/Evolve Shaman he's kind of useless. I swapped him out for a Bloodlust, no regrets.

Right behind that is Hammer of Twilight,
 
Thanks for going more into the card and other things, I appreciate the extra information.

I do agree on Jaraxxus and I find it to be a really cool card too.

There's also more recently Lightlord, which I would say is pretty cool too.

What would you like to see in a card for Hearthstone though, just out of curiosity.
No problem! I'm learning all this stuff while playing Hearthstone, so I'm excited to talk about it and share.

I really like cards with infinite value:
Dreadsteed
Tentacles for Arms
Shadowform
Charged Hammer
Justicar Trueheart (though I think it's poorly balanced, and should come with a mana cost increase)

I would like to see a burn spell that returns to your hand after you use it. It would have to be mana-inefficient, of course, but I'd build a deck around it.

I would really just like to see some new mechanics to make the game better in general, though. I still think creatures being able to directly attack other creatures holds the game back a lot.

Synergies and combos are two different things.
No doubt, but what's the line of demarcation?

Hallazeal. He's fun and all when he works but since my favorite deck is C'thun/Evolve Shaman he's kind of useless. I swapped him out for a Bloodlust, no regrets.

Right behind that is Hammer of Twilight,
Really? Hammer is no good?
 
The game simply put doesn't have enough mechanics to make this more about skill over luck and the stupid shit they keep putting into the game just keeps making the gap wider and wider. MTG over a decade ago had more depth than Hearthstone let alone current MTG with Planeswalkers and such and the reasons Blizzard gives just screams laziness and incompetence. RNG is fun! Game needs to be designed for people with 10 min. to spare!

Aggro is way too fucking powerful compared to every other type of deck and it simply does come down to "if you don't have this in particular card to stop it within the first 5 turns, you're fucked. It all comes down luck of the draw, pure rng because there's nothing else you can possible do within the game mechanics to help you.

-No "search your hand for a type of card and put it on top of your library or into your hand" type cards.

-No assigning blockers, leaving it to very few minions that can actually stop anything.

-Flying means fuck all as do pretty much all types in the game outside of battlecries. Individually though, it's all for show.

-No individual minion activation abilities "tap minion, do something, instead of attacking for the turn".

-No countering anything during your opponent's attacking phase.

So on and so forth. With the aggro game, it's either have the answers to hold out against the onslaught instantly in your opening hand or first couple of card draws or enjoy a loss. It literally feels like you lose a boxing match because your hands are tied behind your back. And as I said, without the ability to actually use all minions as blockers or to search your deck for a card that you desperately need, all of it is 100% rng. Add on the beyond stupid shit that nobody can defend with the early game 1 and 2 drop minions like Knife Juggler and Flame Juggler or even shit like Arcane Missiles killing your 3/3 by winning 3 coin flips..... Shit is just bad game design, end of story.

As said with other type of decks, they just aren't even close to aggro decks because they need specific winning conditions and since the control game is hope to god you get X cards at the right time and on a proper mana curve whereas aggro is just flood the board with any shit you can play and go fucking face, of course nobody likes aggro in this damn game. Blizzard has done everything in their power to encourage the use of aggro decks. Benefits for herp derp face game are the following.

-It's the most brain dead shit you can possibly play

-Game conclusion happens tremendously faster, win or lose you spend 5 min compared to say, control Warrior spending over 20 min.

-You get way more games in then you do with other types of decks.

-The shitty reward system in the game is static and only gives you a pat on the back if you win, no extra gold for killing 20 minions in a match or playing a dozen spells. If you had an epic 30 min game where you controlled everything, went the distance, and played everything, you get the same reward as the twat that just played a 3 min game and won by flooding the board with 1 and 2 mana cost minions and went face and didn't make a single trade.

-Ranking system is the same, if you want to climb the ladder ranks, playing a slow control deck is unwise because the game only gives a shit about the wins and losses, it's not like DOTA 2 where it keeps track of stuff like total damage done, total kills, etc. None of it matters and quite frankly it makes the entire ranking system in this game an utter joke. Pick the highest know win rate aggro deck and face face face face face.

The game doesn't need to have anywhere near the mechanics MTG does but its clear that the same shit is going to keep happening over and over again despite what cards Blizzard releases unless they add some meaningful mechanics to the game instead of worthless shit like inspire. To me, the game is in a state exactly like vanilla Diablo III was, where there's technically tons of builds to do, but the vast majority were utterly shit Act 2 Inferno and onward, which led to everyone using the same cookie cutter builds because it was the only way you would have a chance of advancing.

Everyone was so happy to see Zoolock cards like Implosion and such gone only for shit like Darkshire Councilman to be added, and Shaman are flat stupid with the new cards. Priests got fucked, Rogue has infinite card draw now with Xaril toxins, discovering deathrattle cards, and deathrattle give random class cards. Warriors have powerful stuff but again cling to control with the mass armor gains, etc. Mage is basically the same. Hunters got some powerful stuff like call of the wild but still aren't a top choice for mid range or control decks. Paladins got absurd aggro capabilities.

All in all, the game benefited aggro decks by far the most which is why already, at all ranks, the game is flooded with them. All the uniqueness Old Gods brought to the table has burnt out faster than a wet match and it's just a bunch of matches hoping to god your hands aren't tied behind your back again and that you'll actually be able to throw a punch.

Other decks beside aggro can be incredibly good but when the trade off is games take 5 times longer and net the same reward, there's 0 reason to choose to play anything else outside of complete boredom. Game needs more mechanics, new game modes, or both. Wild is pointless and Arena can simply fuck you over again and again.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Life tap plus Molten/Mountain/Drake isn't a combo. And that's not the entire point of the deck either which runs opposite to how combo decks function.

Might as well call Control Warrior a combo deck because you are using your hero powers plus other shield gain cards to create a combo where you kill a minion with one mana using Shield Slam.



Combo decks are defined by having lots and lots of draws to draw into a a decent number of very specific cards that if played together like a combo win you the game. Miracle Rogue draws into Cold Bloods/Leeroys/Stealth using Gadgetan draw engine then does 20+ burst damage. Freeze Mage draws into their burn spell/Alex/Antonidas and then kills you with said burn or uses a combo to generate more burn. That's the entire point of those decks.

Combos decks generally have 3 types of cards in their deck: Cards that are part of the combo, cards that draw into the combo and cards that stall/control the board until you get those other cards.
 
The game simply put doesn't have enough mechanics to make this more about skill over luck and the stupid shit they keep putting into the game just keeps making the gap wider and wider. MTG over a decade ago had more depth than Hearthstone let alone current MTG with Planeswalkers and such and the reasons Blizzard gives just screams laziness and incompetence. RNG is fun! Game needs to be designed for people with 10 min. to spare!

Aggro is way too fucking powerful compared to every other type of deck and it simply does come down to "if you don't have this in particular card to stop it within the first 5 turns, you're fucked. It all comes down luck of the draw, pure rng because there's nothing else you can possible do within the game mechanics to help you.

-No "search your hand for a type of card and put it on top of your library or into your hand" type cards.

-No assigning blockers, leaving it to very few minions that can actually stop anything.

-Flying means fuck all as do pretty much all types in the game outside of battlecries. Individually though, it's all for show.

-No individual minion activation abilities "tap minion, do something, instead of attacking for the turn".

-No countering anything during your opponent's attacking phase.

So on and so forth. With the aggro game, it's either have the answers to hold out against the onslaught instantly in your opening hand or first couple of card draws or enjoy a loss. It literally feels like you lose a boxing match because your hands are tied behind your back. And as I said, without the ability to actually use all minions as blockers or to search your deck for a card that you desperately need, all of it is 100% rng. Add on the beyond stupid shit that nobody can defend with the early game 1 and 2 drop minions like Knife Juggler and Flame Juggler or even shit like Arcane Missiles killing your 3/3 by winning 3 coin flips..... Shit is just bad game design, end of story.

As said with other type of decks, they just aren't even close to aggro decks because they need specific winning conditions and since the control game is hope to god you get X cards at the right time and on a proper mana curve whereas aggro is just flood the board with any shit you can play and go fucking face, of course nobody like aggro in this damn game. Blizzard has done everything in their power to encourage the use of aggro decks. Benefits for herp derp face game are the following.

-It's the most brain dead shit you can possibly play

-Game conclusion happens tremendously faster, win or lose you spend 5 min compared to say, control Warrior spending over 20 min.

-You get way more games in then you do with other types of decks.

-The shitty reward system in the game is static and only gives you a pat on the back if you win, no extra gold for killing 20 minions in a match or playing a dozen spells. If you had an epic 30 min game where you controlled everything, went the distance, and played everything, you get the same reward as the twat that just played a 3 min game and won by flooding the board with 1 and 2 mana cost minions and went face and didn't make a single trade.

-Ranking system is the same, if you want to climb the ladder ranks, playing a slow control deck is unwise because the game only gives a shit about the wins and losses, it's not like DOTA 2 where it keeps track of stuff like total damage done, total kills, etc. None of it matters and quite frankly it makes the entire ranking system in this game an utter joke. Pick the highest know win rate aggro deck and face face face face face.

The game doesn't need to have anywhere near the mechanics MTG does but its clear that the same shit is going to keep happening over and over again despite what cards Blizzard releases unless they add some meaningful mechanics to the game instead of worthless shit like inspire. To me, the game is in a state exactly like vanilla Diablo III was, where there's technically tons of builds to do, but the vast majority were utterly shit Act 2 Inferno and onward, which led to everyone using the same cookie cutter builds because it was the only way you would have a chance of advancing.

Everyone was so happy to see Zoolock cards like Implosion and such gone only for shit like Darkshire Councilman to be added, and Shaman are flat stupid with the new cards. Priests got fucked, Rogue has infinite card draw now with Xaril toxins, discovering deathrattle cards, and deathrattle give random class cards. Warriors have powerful stuff but again cling to control with the mass armor gains, etc. Mage is basically the same. Hunters got some powerful stuff like call of the wild but still aren't a top choice for mid range or control decks. Paladins got absurd aggro capabilities.

All in all, the game benefited aggro decks by far the most which is why already, at all ranks, the game is flooded with them. All the uniqueness Old Gods brought to the table has burnt out faster than a wet match and it's just a bunch of matches hoping to god your hands aren't tied behind your back again and that you'll actually be able to throw a punch.

Other decks beside aggro can be incredibly good but when the trade off is games take 5 times longer and net the same reward, there's 0 reason to choose to play anything else outside of complete boredom. Game needs more mechanics, new game modes, or both. Wild is pointless and Arena can simply fuck you over again and again.
This post is absolutely perfect! I agree with everything you have said here. I've talked about some solutions in this thread, but no one seems interested:

1) Have creature activation abilities that "use" them for the turn. Have a little "Altar of Activation" sitting on the left center side of the screen. Drag and drop a creature there to use its ability. Easy and intuitive, right?

2) Either give us multiple hero powers to choose for a deck, or make hero powers a "Choose One" effect so we can make more meaningful strategic decisions. This would also lead to new deck archetypes through new synergies, and it would release Warrior and Hunter from their current stranglehold.

3) Search cards are a good idea; it would help Control a lot. Free cycling, too.

4) Personally, I think it would be great if spells could be played during your opponent's turn...

I agree that Blizzard is just lazy and scared of disrupting the meta, even though it's necessary and the game is feeling stale right now.

Life tap plus Molten/Mountain/Drake isn't a combo. And that's not the entire point of the deck either which runs opposite to how combo decks function.

Might as well call Control Warrior a combo deck because you are using your hero powers plus other shield gain cards to create a combo where you kill a minion with one mana using Shield Slam.



Combo decks are defined by having lots and lots of draws to draw into a a decent number of very specific cards that if played together like a combo win you the game. Miracle Rogue draws into Cold Bloods/Leeroys/Stealth using Gadgetan draw engine then does 20+ burst damage. Freeze Mage draws into their burn spell/Alex/Antonidas and then kills you with said burn or uses a combo to generate more burn. That's the entire point of those decks.

Combos decks generally have 3 types of cards in their deck: Cards that are part of the combo, cards that draw into the combo and cards that stall/control the board until you get those other cards.
I feel like Handlock still fits this definition. The Giants are often a win condition, especially if you can drop 2 + Shadowflame one.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I am not sure how they can fix the aggro vs control issue on ladder. Assuming perfect balance, aggro will always be better to use on Ladder because it's more efficient time wise. This is not a factor for tournaments because in tournaments win percentage and match ups are more important, time is irrelevant and number of matches played is irrelevant. Plus in tournaments you have to play 4 classes whereas on Ladder you can play only one class/deck and that also affects deck variety.

Only way to fix this is to have best 2/3 on Ranked where you have to cue in 3 classes minimum while also making the ladder more constricted in terms of tiers (so it takes less matches to get to rank 5 because you are spending more time on one).
 

manhack

Member
...shit like Darkshire Councilman to be added,

-It's the most brain dead shit you can possibly play

Good post! The only 2 things I disagree with above.

Councilman seems ok to me because it benefits on board control in feels like a "win more" type of card to me. I've only had 1 time where I was blow out by this card.

Aggro being braid dead is a common complaint, so we may have to agree to disagree, but I usually beat players who "only go face" unless my hand is completely abysmal , but that does feed into some of your points.

When I play aggro it usually involves some pretty crucial decision making and risk taking as well.

Of course a lot of us agree that the game isn't exactly a test of brain power compared to other games.

I agree that Blizzard is just lazy and scared of disrupting the meta, even though it's necessary and the game is feeling stale right now.

I suppose these are the comments that make me most uncomfortable, as someone who has some experience being on the other end of this complaint. I'm not sure lazy is the appropriate word. The pace that companies make change isn't a direct result of the work ethic of the individual members.
 

fertygo

Member
All of these fancy talk about mechanic change and all that, for me the quick fix is just Aggro deck shouldn't be tier 1 or best deck, they should've good enough to average more win per minute for laddering decision, I think that's fine.. but they shouldn't be absolutely the best, deck that can win you tournament lol its stupid.. the idea of aggro should've you can win faster but you lose easier too, not the uphill battle for the non aggro..

I still have a lot fun when pace is slower 2-4 turn than standard aggro shitfest, game's that not too complicated enough I still happy with 2-3 decision making that can affect the game, its ideal HS game for me.

Again I think this is because Taunt minion usually got their stat penalized, its stupid
 
I am not sure how they can fix the aggro vs control issue on ladder. Assuming perfect balance, aggro will always be better to use on Ladder because it's more efficient time wise. This is not a factor for tournaments because in tournaments win percentage and match ups are more important, time is irrelevant and number of matches played is irrelevant. Plus in tournaments you have to play 4 classes whereas on Ladder you can play only one class/deck and that also affects deck variety.

Only way to fix this is to have best 2/3 on Ranked where you have to cue in 3 classes minimum while also making the ladder more constricted in terms of tiers (so it takes less matches to get to rank 5 because you are spending more time on one).
This would be wonderful except for how long it would take.

I suppose these are the comments that make me most uncomfortable, as someone who has some experience being on the other end of this complaint. I'm not sure lazy is the appropriate word. The pace that companies make change isn't a direct result of the work ethic of the individual members.
Greedy, maybe?

The game supposedly draws in tens of millions per month. They can afford to do a lot more. I'm very sympathetic to developers and their trials. I'm not the sort of person that calls developers lazy for this or that. But when Mysterious Challenger goes unchecked for so long, what other word applies other than "lazy"?

All of these fancy talk about mechanic change and all that, for me the quick fix is just Aggro deck shouldn't be tier 1 or best deck, they should've good enough to average more win per minute for laddering decision, I think that's fine.. but they shouldn't be absolutely the best, deck that can win you tournament lol its stupid.. the idea of aggro should've you can win faster but you lose easier too, not the uphill battle for the non aggro..

I still have a lot fun when pace is slower 2-4 turn than standard aggro shitfest, game's that not too complicated enough I still happy with 2-3 decision making that can affect the game, its ideal HS game for me.

Again I think this is because Taunt minion usually got their stat penalized, its stupid
Aggro/Tempo dominate because you can attack minions.

Imagine what this game would be like if you couldn't just outright attack Knife Juggler or Flamewaker...okay, I think that would probably be worse, but you get the idea. :-/
 
i'd highly recommend this tempo warrior deck a lot of people are trying. sjow jst got to #1 in na/europe with it. basically no justicar or patrons, you're just putting down solid minions. he's got gromash/rag/arch thief as the finishers. i put in obsidian instead of arch thief since i dusted that thing awhile ago and obsidian is fun. he also usees malkorok or whatever that legendary is that gives you a random weapon and i dtiched that for gorehowl which is great underrated card of all time.

anyway doing well with it so far in the noob rank zone up to 12.
 

fertygo

Member
Serriously, if Aggro deck is as good as bubble paladin or like Dahbomb said current Face Hunter is very ok

I see current Aggro paladin,its very damn good and you can made it to legend everytime but that deck can not draw its winning condition easily and lose too, very prone to board clear too aside Divine Favor being bullshit card, this is example of Aggro deck that I fine with

Aggro Shaman is ultra BS because their board can really hard to clear and their damage per turn is batshit, its just out of control now
 

Dahbomb

Member
Aggro/tempo dominates because in this game the person who is doing the attacks has initiative and has the advantage so they can dictate favorable trades. In Magic it's the opposite, it's the defender who can choose how the trades go about (which creature blocks what). In YGO, every minion can be used to block attacks (if set sideways) and a lot of effects are triggered when you try to attack while an upside down card is in play. So the person on defense still has some decisions and counters to make.

And because of this the game snowballs out of control from turn 1-2 when aggro decks are involved.
 

fertygo

Member
Aggro/tempo dominates because in this game the person who is doing the attacks has initiative and has the advantage so they can dictate favorable trades. In Magic it's the opposite, it's the defender who can choose how the trades go about (which creature blocks what). In YGO, every minion can be used to block attacks (if set sideways) and a lot of effects are triggered when you try to attack while an upside down card is in play. So the person on defense still has some decisions and counters to make.

And because of this the game snowballs out of control from turn 1-2 when aggro decks are involved.

in YGO you also can't direct attack if opponent minion on board

Taunt minion on HS not even have incentive
 
Aggro/tempo dominates because in this game the person who is doing the attacks has initiative and has the advantage so they can dictate favorable trades. In Magic it's the opposite, it's the defender who can choose how the trades go about (which creature blocks what). In YGO, every minion can be used to block attacks (if set sideways) and a lot of effects are triggered when you try to attack while an upside down card is in play. So the person on defense still has some decisions and counters to make.

And because of this the game snowballs out of control from turn 1-2 when aggro decks are involved.
Right, which is why I think the game needs an overhaul, not just a few new cards.
 

Dahbomb

Member
It's not like it's much to keep up with HS.

Just do a couple of dailies every other day and make it to rank 5 every month. That's not a lot of playtime to be honest (if you have gotten rank 5 already). Not like most people here play the game seriously to begin with.
 
Life's certainly gonna more enjoyable. I have steam backlog that actually more worth to play than playing this and watch stream all day
Enjoy yourself. :)

It's not like it's much to keep up with HS.

Just do a couple of dailies every other day and make it to rank 5 every month. That's not a lot of playtime to be honest (if you have gotten rank 5 already). Not like most people here play the game seriously to begin with.
Yeah, but if it's not fun, why do it at all?

I got really lucky on a match just now. N'Zoth Paladin, and I drew both Hexes. What if I hadn't drawn both Hexes? I would have lost automatically, no matter how smart my play is.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I got really lucky on a match just now. N'Zoth Paladin, and I drew both Hexes. What if I hadn't drawn both Hexes? I would have lost automatically, no matter how smart my play is.
What if that Paladin didn't draw a single Equality? He would've lost automatically no matter how smart he played.

But that's all card games really.
 
What if that Paladin didn't draw a single Equality? He would've lost automatically no matter how smart he played.

But that's all card games really.
See, it's not though. MtG decks have TONS of ways to search your deck for specific cards mid-match so that's not an issue. The chances of you failing to draw key cards AND search cards in any given game is very minimal, as in it never happened to me during my time playing. Duelyst lets you cycle to minimize the randomness. Hearthstone does nothing.

Also, he drew both Equalities, both Pyromancers, a Consecration, Ragnaros Lightlord, Tirion, and both Forbidden Healings during our match. :)
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't have enough Magic experience so I will just take your word for it.

In YGO like just about any good "search your deck" card is either limited or banned (because of how powerful combos/win conditions are in that game). And even then you have to draw those cards too so you can still be in situations where you don't have the right answer and lose because of it.

I know in Duelyst even with the cycling you can lose due to not having the appropriate answer in time. It's less random but still random nonetheless.
 
I don't have enough Magic experience so I will just take your word for it.

In YGO like just about any good "search your deck" card is either limited or banned (because of how powerful combos/win conditions are in that game). And even then you have to draw those cards too so you can still be in situations where you don't have the right answer and lose because of it.

I know in Duelyst even with the cycling you can lose due to not having the appropriate answer in time. It's less random but still random nonetheless.
Yeah, the ideal would be MtG+Duelyst systems. MtG has TONS of search cards, and they're pretty much all legal. It's part of the consistency the game strives for.

Hearthstone players think Life Tap is overpowered, but MtG has cards like this:
Image.ashx


Spend 10 life and draw 10 cards in one turn if you want!
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I think this conversation is pretty funny because the MtG thread just got through a debate about how 20% of games are non-games because one side or the other doesn't draw any mana/draws nothing but mana.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Yeah well you need to pay the 6 mana up front to play it. Since max HP is lower in Magic (20 vs 30) that's basically like having Coldarra Drake active for a Warlock.

Wouldn't actually be that good in HS to be honest (it's type specific so it's HS equivalent is that it would be class specific) depending upon the class it's in.
 
I think this conversation is pretty funny because the MtG thread just got through a debate about how 20% of games are non-games because one side or the other doesn't draw any mana/draws nothing but mana.
It's MtG's #1 flaw, and why I don't play it anymore. If we could have MtG with mana crystals, that would be the card game of the forever.

Yeah well you need to pay the 6 mana up front to play it. Since max HP is lower in Magic (20 vs 30) that's basically like having Coldarra Drake active for a Warlock.

Wouldn't actually be that good in HS to be honest (it's type specific so it's HS equivalent is that it would be class specific) depending upon the class it's in.
Tell me you wouldn't draw up a bunch for a Thaurissan tick. :-D
 
there are some problems with hearthstone stone but when you start complaining about aggro and randomness it just makes me think you're a bad player who doesn't understand why they're losing.

also having more mechanics doesn't necessarily make your game deeper or more complex. discover has turned out to be good but joust and inspire are just plain bad and I'll be happy when they rotate out of standard so we get some good cards.
 
there are some problems with hearthstone stone but when you start complaining about aggro and randomness it just makes me think you're a bad player who doesn't understand why they're losing.

also having more mechanics doesn't necessarily make your game deeper or more complex. discover has turned out to be good but joust and inspire are just plain bad and I'll be happy when they rotate out of standard so we get some good cards.
Obviously people are asking for good mechanics, and not just more mechanics.

Also, this game is really random. Like, random enough that a top Arena player like Hafu went 0-3 in an Arena set this last week. You're welcome to pretend the game is otherwise, though.

With that up front cost? Nah.

Too much god damn tempo loss in HS. I would rather just pay 6 mana and draw 4 cards instantly, don't want to pay any HP when getting rushed down by Shamans.
Tempo isn't as big of a deal in MtG because the defender has the advantage during combat. In HS, you get to choose your attacks, which is why the game snowballs. In MtG, the attacker just chooses WHO attacks, and the defender chooses which minions block and how. If you have a decent board out for blocking selectively and to your advantage, it's fine to lose a little tempo because you can soak damage efficiently. Hearthstone basically gives the attacker double benefit for being the attacker.

Also, you have to contextualize the card. Here are some cards that made Yawgmoth's Bargain viable in one of the best combo decks ever:

Basically, imagine if Warlock was the ramp race in HS. That's black in MtG. Then there was this combo:

Here's the Tier 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain deck that resulted:
http://www.mtgvault.com/razka/decks/t1-yawgmoths-bargain/

Yawgmoth's Bargain was eventually banned. :(
 

Dahbomb

Member
Not sure why Arena was brought up when that mode is purposely completely random.

Better to say that world champion Ostaka went 0-3 in a tournament or something.
 
I think this conversation is pretty funny because the MtG thread just got through a debate about how 20% of games are non-games because one side or the other doesn't draw any mana/draws nothing but mana.

I randomly watch mtg grand prix tournies on twitch and man games take so long since there are way more dead draws in there. Plus most of modern seemed to be based off a combo deck like splinter twins.

I understand the complaints stated above but a couple of them just aren't feasible in current HS due to how the game is played. Duelyst and faeria from what I've seen don't have any of these tap a creature for an ability. That mainly seems to be a mtg thing and from what HS wants to be, it adds a lot of complexity to the game that it doesnt need. Scrying/searching your deck also doesnt really work in HS just due to the fact that decks are 30 cards, half of standard MtG decks. The game does have quasi deck searching in terms of tracking/parrot/harbinger. They may be testing w/ harbinger but yea idk how well that mechanic would work w/ current HS. Think about MC and scientist how them thinning the deck was one of the reasons they were dumb.

Yes the game rewards queuing with aggro but I feel like that would be any game. The other reason is that the best anti aggro cards were removed and they didn't add anything to replace them class wise so we're stuck w/ aggro shaman till either a nerf which I doubt is coming or the next adventure.

I doubt there going to overhaul HS mechanics big time, i could be wrong, but that stuff isn't going to happen. I also agree w/ early RNG being bullshit like reynad has also agreed with and they shouldve steered away from it but who knows what they're thinking w/ that sort of stuff.
 
Not sure why Arena was brought up when that mode is purposely completely random.

Better to say that world champion Ostaka went 0-3 in a tournament or something.
Everyone here tells me that Arena is the pinnacle of skill, and I'm just trying to speak to the audience! :p

I randomly watch mtg grand prix tournies on twitch and man games take so long since there are way more dead draws in there. Plus most of modern seemed to be based off a combo deck like splinter twins.

I understand the complaints stated above but a couple of them just aren't feasible in current HS due to how the game is played. Duelyst and faeria from what I've seen don't have any of these tap a creature for an ability. That mainly seems to be a mtg thing and from what HS wants to be, it adds a lot of complexity to the game that it doesnt need. Scrying/searching your deck also doesnt really work in HS just due to the fact that decks are 30 cards, half of standard MtG decks. The game does have quasi deck searching in terms of tracking/parrot/harbinger. They may be testing w/ harbinger but yea idk how well that mechanic would work w/ current HS. Think about MC and scientist how them thinning the deck was one of the reasons they were dumb.

Yes the game rewards queuing with aggro but I feel like that would be any game. The other reason is that the best anti aggro cards were removed and they didn't add anything to replace them class wise so we're stuck w/ aggro shaman till either a nerf which I doubt is coming or the next adventure.

I doubt there going to overhaul HS mechanics big time, i could be wrong, but that stuff isn't going to happen. I also agree w/ early RNG being bullshit like reynad has also agreed with and they shouldve steered away from it but who knows what they're thinking w/ that sort of stuff.
Mad Scientist was only dumb contextually. If a lot of cards had deck-thinning properties, it would be fine.

Faeria seems like a simple game.

Duelyst has board position to keep it interesting. It could add creature abilities, too, but it went another avenue. I think Hearthstone needs something to keep the game interesting.
 
Also since mulligans do pretty much determine if you're gonna lose, I'd feel that should be the first issue to be sorted out. Duelyst has the recycle every turn, faeria has spend your land action this turn to draw so HS should have something equivalent in terms of draw or just a better mulligan system

faeria is actually a bit complex b/c you need to understand positioning and mana management. It's interesting from what I've seen and played
 
Also since mulligans do pretty much determine if you're gonna lose, I'd feel that should be the first issue to be sorted out. Duelyst has the recycle every turn, faeria has spend your land action this turn to draw so HS should have something equivalent in terms of draw or just a better mulligan system
One thing that I really don't understand in Hearthstone is why P1 gets to mulligan 3 cards, and P2 gets to mulligan 4. That 1 card makes it so much easier to put a hand together.
 
It's MtG's #1 flaw, and why I don't play it anymore. If we could have MtG with mana crystals, that would be the card game of the forever.

Is it really, I don't think any (T/C)CG comes close to mtg when it comes to the whole package. MTG is lacking accessibility and ease of use as well as being ridiculously expensive but the way other games tried to solve lands causes a slew of other problems.

The way Hearthstone deals with it is also less than ideal, there's no tradeoff for strategies and everything can be way more streamlined. Which causes things to feel samey and massively favours the one able to curve out.

I think this conversation is pretty funny because the MtG thread just got through a debate about how 20% of games are non-games because one side or the other doesn't draw any mana/draws nothing but mana.

That wasn't pretty.
 
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