BananasWithGuns
Member
This Priest was REALLY dumb. Played his C'Thun into my Sylvanas lol.
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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
This n'zoth paladin just lost a sure thing. All he had to do was play n'zoth. It was in his hand. We were both in fatigue. I still had c'thun in hand. Instead, he did something else. And then I played c'thun. He was still alive. He could have played n'zoth after c'thun cause his next fatigue turn was only 4 damage and he would have been left at 1 hp. I only had equality left in hand.
He finally uses n'zoth the turn he dies to fatigue. What the hell. He had the upper hand the entire freaking game. Putting enough pressure on me so that I had to equality clear a pretty weak board. And then he hard played around second equality despite having tirion + cairne dead. He got greeedy af putting out sylvanas to get a bigger n'zoth turn.
After playing against n'zoth paladin as c'thun paladin, I'm starting to think maybe my deck isn't as favored as I would like it to be. I think I need a few more c'thun power cards. Maybe doomcaller.
He finally uses n'zoth the turn he dies to fatigue. What the hell. He had the upper hand the entire freaking game. Putting enough pressure on me so that I had to equality clear a pretty weak board. And then he hard played around second equality despite having tirion + cairne dead. He got greeedy af putting out sylvanas to get a bigger n'zoth turn.
After playing against n'zoth paladin as c'thun paladin, I'm starting to think maybe my deck isn't as favored as I would like it to be. I think I need a few more c'thun power cards. Maybe doomcaller.
I don't get it. Wouldn't n'zoth summon the same amount with no brann. Or does it summon doubles space-willing?
I think I figured out my problem with C'Thun cards, and it's not the big dude himself. It's the regular minions.
It feels like they're supposed to trade immediate effectiveness for summoning this powerful old god, but there's not actually any tradeoff. All the minions seem to be just as good on their own as any minion you'll see in another deck, but they have this additional feature of adding a timer that is a 90 percent kill if the game goes on long enough.
Maybe I'm just dumb, I dunno.
It feels like they're supposed to trade immediate effectiveness for summoning this powerful old god, but there's not actually any tradeoff. All the minions seem to be just as good on their own as any minion you'll see in another deck, but they have this additional feature of adding a timer that is a 90 percent kill if the game goes on long enough.
Maybe I'm just dumb, I dunno.
There's still an opportunity cost to including these minions. Other minions are vanilla strong but have an effect, C'thun minions are vanilla strong but their effects are typically limited to buffing C'thun. See C'thun 2/3 vs Flame Juggler. A 2/3 without any other effect is unplayable in constructed, anyway.
I'm not including Twin Emperor and similar minions since they don't buff C'thun.
Ok. Coming from TCGs with discard piles that's super weird to me I guess!
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Yes, yes, been saying this for some time. Has way more win conditions.
every shaman deck on standard is a good deck
Just kicked a zoo's ass.
The match isn't that unwinnable. Pain, at least 1 Excavated Evil (To dilute their draws) and Novas.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
People were convinced, at least early that shaman Cthun wasn't even in the top 3 Cthun decks as it lacks any cthun class cards.
Agreed; having played that match up using your deck I had similar issues. The same issue control warrior has too. They can force you into a board clear vs. the first few waves of minions and eventually you have no way to deal with the n'zoth board.
The first Sylvanus always gives me fits if they time it well.
Ok good, people haven't copied my deck yet then
Yup if my Zoo loses to priest, it's because they were able to use multiple board clears
C'Thun decks aren't that great. You play them for 2 reasons: C'thun blastin' & OP cards that activate at 10 attack. By building a C'Thun Shaman you are giving up half the reason to play that kind of deck since they don't have an OP C'thun class card.
If you remove the C'thun cards from that deck and replace them with better cards, you will probably end up with a better deck. Your early and mid-game minions will be more powerful and your late game finisher will cost less than 10 mana and probably be less predictable.
I'm not saying that a solid C'thun deck isn't possible, but if one is working really well for Shaman, then maybe it's worth taking a look at other possibilities that would make it even stronger.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
N'Zoth Pally w/ and w/o classic Rag is night and day. A 2nd control finisher is pretty important.
Well worth dusting everything from all but Rogue and Pally
Well worth dusting everything from all but Rogue and Pally
I find this really funny. Like what decks was he playing against to put all of that into his priest? I just imagine him building a deck and quietly telling himself about how he has seen some shit as he adds in the second BGH.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
The part I like about cthun shaman is that the disciples are half the cost of fire elemental and still do 2/3rds the damage ( or 1 more with a Brann combo for the same mana cost) and the 4/2 divine shield minion have some stickiness to board clears and of course twin emperors are a tremendous T7 play. Also all of those synergize great with evolve.
My problem with midrange shaman was going the distance against control and tempo decks, Cthun Shaman to me gives me late game answers to those. While still having early game answers to aggro, if I get a good draw.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Freeze Mage is really the least of the problems, it takes a good while to craft the right hand usually. More than enough time to finish him off.
I just made both Rags, my dust pile I was hoarding took a big hit as I also crafted Harrison and a second forbidden healing but dust was not meant to last.
Karsticles
Member
Then why was the deck almost universally banned at a recent tournament?
Rosenskjold
Member
This game is the perfect teacher of self-composure.
So let's theory craft a Control Shaman that doesn't use C'thun and see if it looks like it has potential. The cards we're looking to find better replacements for are the ones you listed above. So we need:
3 mana minion that fights for the board
4 mana minion that can 2 for 1
7 mana stabalizer
10 mana finisher
For the rest of the C'thun cards their replacements are pretty straight forward. Just replace them with the better version.
At 3 mana I recommend Argent Horserider. It benefits from Rockbiter and Flametongue also. It keeps it's divine shield if you have to hit face to play on tempo. It also has evolve synergy.
At 4 mana shaman has a lot of choices.
Flamewreathed Faceless is a great 4 drop. If you are running an overload deck then it has great synergy with the early drops.
Fire Guard Destory is the half measure. It's less overload, fewer stats, and more rng. It focuses more on trading.
Dreanei Totem Carver is best in a totem shaman list, but if you have a single totem out it is a 5/5 with no downside.
Master of Evolution fits into an evolve deck, acts as a basic 4/5 for 4 which is pretty good, and can heal or upgrade an existing minion.
The 7 mana stabilizer is harder to find. The Twins are a lot of defensive stats for 7 mana, but shaman has some pretty great stabilizing cards now.
Thing From Below - A 5/5 taunt with that gets cheaper is a great tempo card and a great way fend off early aggression.
Hallazeal - If you are running any spells or board clears he is a solid body with big heal potential.
The Finisher - I'm kind of out of time, but there are plenty that require less setup with big pay off.
Ragnaros is the go to finisher. 8/8 for 8 and do 8 damage.
Alakir is another option. If you're running Flame tongues and rockbiters then he can burst for a lot of damage.
Infernodash
Member
This is the gospel. Queued up against three warlocks back to back to back, altered my deck to add swh and remove a circle heal and alchemist. Proceed to face Cthun druids back to back and miracle rogue that milled my hand because I had too many dead cards. Hearthstone tm
Oh, I agree, there are greater problems than Freeze Mage even if they can kill you from 30 without a board.
Like Divine Favor. Shit is fucking broken and straight up shouldn't exist. If Blizzard wants to make things viable why do they have to make things overpowered?
The game is really boring 
I'm thinking of dropping HS now actually, only two weeks into new expansion and the supposedly exciting standard. I can't be suffering shaman after shaman until Blizzard realizes they really fucked up this time in 6-7 month. It's not a deck or single card this time, anything shaman is oppressive and out of control compared with other classes, I'm baffled how this got past testing. It's just too easy to roll over anything and everything with shaman, counters are not really counters.
I'm thinking of dropping HS now actually, only two weeks into new expansion and the supposedly exciting standard. I can't be suffering shaman after shaman until Blizzard realizes they really fucked up this time in 6-7 month. It's not a deck or single card this time, anything shaman is oppressive and out of control compared with other classes, I'm baffled how this got past testing. It's just too easy to roll over anything and everything with shaman, counters are not really counters.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I'm sorry, but this game was doomed to fail from a balance perspective as soon as they announced how this game works with mana.
There's a reason the majority "pros" dislike playing this game; it's a job for them. They hate this game, and for good reasons.
There's a reason the majority "pros" dislike playing this game; it's a job for them. They hate this game, and for good reasons.
I love facing up against Freeze Mage. I went up against one yesterday with a golden portrait and fortunately I was playing Patron. At one point I had 29 health and 20 armor, thanks in part to him being forced to Blizzard a board full of Patrons plus an Armorsmith. I took 3 turns of fatigue damage because I out-cycled him, he Ice Blocked twice and I still got lethal with Finley into mage ping.
Everyone would hate their pro gamer job if they had to stream and play on ladder for days. Against other pros and tournaments are enjoyable even in HS.
So apparently divine shield pally works quite well at rank 11-9.
The list I'm using:
Thinking of adding in 1x Competitive Spirit.
It was funny seeing an aggro warrior ignore my Darkshire just because he got me to like 11 health at turn 5. Apparently Bilefin with Darkshire is game-winning against the aggro warrior because hey, who cares about running aoe right? He even had to spend his mortal strike on a 3/1 Darkshire but of course, it was too late by then.
Some people. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
The list I'm using:
Thinking of adding in 1x Competitive Spirit.
It was funny seeing an aggro warrior ignore my Darkshire just because he got me to like 11 health at turn 5. Apparently Bilefin with Darkshire is game-winning against the aggro warrior because hey, who cares about running aoe right? He even had to spend his mortal strike on a 3/1 Darkshire but of course, it was too late by then.
Some people. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯that and how a player can ignore whatever you have on board and go face instead, that's not how card games work...taunt instead of blocking was just poor design choice.
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It's so stupid how thing from below works, all discounted minions in the game with the exception of frost giant, don't get cheaper and cheaper. Their cost depend on health or cards or minions in play or they have to be in your hand. Yet they printed this, the card is so stupid, you can just dump two of these for 1 mana each in mid game, suddenly I lost board advantage and I might lose next turn? LOL. fair card would design again. There is no counter play, somehow molten had to be nerfed but they make this now? heh.
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It's so stupid how thing from below works, all discounted minions in the game with the exception of frost giant, don't get cheaper and cheaper. Their cost depend on health or cards or minions in play or they have to be in your hand. Yet they printed this, the card is so stupid, you can just dump two of these for 1 mana each in mid game, suddenly I lost board advantage and I might lose next turn? LOL. fair card would design again. There is no counter play, somehow molten had to be nerfed but they make this now? heh.
Playing a game everyday for 8-12 hrs usually makes me sick of it too.
The streamers I watch (Kripp, Pawnyhof) seem to be enjoying the game.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
I am loving my N'Zoth Hunter Deck. Really resilient.
Infernodash
Member
I started playing Nzoth Hunter w/ double call of wild. Basically 7 - 0 right now with it, though I may have jinxed myself. The Nzoth win condition is really second tier when I can drop Call on turn 8 and 9 then Nzoth on 10. Sick!
So in trying to get into Ramp Driud. My top end cards are Emperor, Sylvannas, Ancient of War, Ragnaros, Aviana, Cenarius, Soggoth, Yogg Saron. It's working but I'm not quite sure why. Why does Ramp Druid work to begin with?
Aviana is so that I can Turn 8 or 9 Innervate and play stuff. Soggoth is basically, divert 9 damage, trade in at least 2 minions. Many times I've played it against a Mid-Range deck and they pass. It does get roflstomped by Black Knight but it's a risk worth taking. Yogg, once again, has only won me games. He draws me cards and clears the board.
EDIT: Even more questions. What is THE anti-Aggro deck? What is THE anti-control deck? I miss my AnyFin Reno =[.
Aviana is so that I can Turn 8 or 9 Innervate and play stuff. Soggoth is basically, divert 9 damage, trade in at least 2 minions. Many times I've played it against a Mid-Range deck and they pass. It does get roflstomped by Black Knight but it's a risk worth taking. Yogg, once again, has only won me games. He draws me cards and clears the board.
EDIT: Even more questions. What is THE anti-Aggro deck? What is THE anti-control deck? I miss my AnyFin Reno =[.
Like a majority of the problems would be fixed if they just introduced a tournament mode with ranking system with the introduction of standard. The ladder is just such a brake on the game and makes it almost only resolve around efficiency. Just give us an alternate way to play, conquest, each player takes 4 decks, 1 ban and play. It's been 3 fucking years and the only thing we've gotten is tavern brawl.
Overall I think WOG has done some good things, but it's just irritating that because of the ladder one class gets to dominate all others. Just watching that dreamhack tournament there is really is some good stuff going on with the meta now, like it really rewards staying ahead of the meta and being creative with your deck construction.
But ah well we're stuck with the ladder for the foreseeable future.
Overall I think WOG has done some good things, but it's just irritating that because of the ladder one class gets to dominate all others. Just watching that dreamhack tournament there is really is some good stuff going on with the meta now, like it really rewards staying ahead of the meta and being creative with your deck construction.
But ah well we're stuck with the ladder for the foreseeable future.
Infernodash
Member
I just don't understand...nerf leper gnome and leave abusive sergeant untouched. The card's effect should be more punishing for the player. The card's stat needs to be 2/1/1. It's just too efficient as it is now. Same with Power Overload, but I still can't think of a decent way to fix that card. As it stands, I think vanilla cards are pretty dead in HS. Why would anyone play cards that don't have an effect/battlecry/deathrattle? What's the point of having them in standard and new expansions when every deck will revolve around effect cards? .
I've also thought about the shaman trogg...It's a 1 mana card that's infinitely better than its 3 mana compatriot unbound elemental. How is this not a design flaw? Sigh. Just musing after losing to Shaman and Zoolock back to back.
I've also thought about the shaman trogg...It's a 1 mana card that's infinitely better than its 3 mana compatriot unbound elemental. How is this not a design flaw? Sigh. Just musing after losing to Shaman and Zoolock back to back.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Yeah double CoW is god tier. I've won many matches even without ever dropping N. So versatile.
Vanilla cards aren't dead in arena.
Infernodash
Member
Absolutely, they're so desperate to kill the deathrattle minions and leave the spiders/slimes untouched. Thats when you drop the CW and transform your board, at least you'll have a 5/4 2/1 2/1 and or 3/2 3/2 ready to go face. Lol.
Infernodash
Member
The only reason it's not dead there is simply because of necessity and best value.
Got a decklist for it? I'm trying to make it work, but those zoo and aggro decks are killing me. Love me some hunter though. After paladin my favourite class.
It's great to have some game finishers in CoW and N'Zoth as a secondary win condition.