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[StoOgE]

First of all:

1) Ted Turner forms one of those groups that can spend as much money as they want in the political race.

2) You get some snazy CG that actualy depicts what happened (i.e. Kerry's swiftboat was all on its own on one side of the river).

3) You show Thurlow saying that there was no bullet fire, and then cite the report for his bronze star that says there was enemy fire

4) You cite the report that shows there were bullet holes in Thurlow's boat.

5) You get the guy he got out of the river saying how Kerry risked his life to save his.

Play is alot.

I'm sure someone is on this, but with the plethora of facts stacked against Thurlows word I dont see why someone isnt on this, especially with the amount of money certain liberals in this country have (Turner, Rob Reiner, etc.)

 

[Hitokage]

Why does it have to be liberals doing this?

 

[Gribbix]

5) You get the guy he got out of the river saying how Kerry risked his life to save his.

They already made this one.

 

[StoOgE]

They already made this one.

Im in Texas.. we dont get political ads.. we are the forgotten non swing state.

Im just saying certain people will start believing things if they here them enough, they need to get these out there.

 

[belgurdo]

I can't wait until December

 

[HAOHMARU]

3) You show Thurlow saying that there was no bullet fire, and then cite the report for his bronze star that says there was enemy fire

It is being disputed that John Kerry wrote the after action report. Also, 9 days after the fact John Kerry stated to another source that he was not under fire on that day.

4) You cite the report that shows there were bullet holes in Thurlow's boat.

Battle damage to Thurlow's boat caused by action from the previous day. Again, there were no fired shots on the day Kerry claimed there was to earn the Bronze star.

One thing I know is that the Swifties are NOT changing their story, and Kerry has on numerous occasions. The group is trying to retain the reputation of the Swift boat units. Questions have been raised about Kerry and his claimed record in Vietnam and he has yet to address them. Kerry got a purple heart from a wound that was self inflicted on a day that NO enemy fired at him. It was a grenade launcher that he fire too close to his own boat and had a piece of shrapnel graze his arm...we are talking a minor self inflicted wound that got him a purple heart?

And the only reason this is an issue right now is because Kerry was using his service in Vietnam as a platform for him to run on. Liberals are scrambling like crazy to try and put these fires out but it just isn't happening. Questions have been raised, and Kerry has yet to answer them.

But hey, lets all blame Bush because he is obviously the shadow agent behind these Swift Boat veterans and their ads. Kerry tells Bush to stop smearing him and then smears him in the same ad? Hypocricy know no bounds.

 

[AntoneM]

Kerry got a purple heart from a wound that was self inflicted on a day that NO enemy fired at him.

That my friend is libel and is against the law, you're saying that John Kerry commited a criminal act and there is no proof to show that he in fact did commit such an act.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

here's how they should counter the swiftboat ads.

**AD begins**
"Im John Kerry and i approved this message..."

**Dave Chappelle enters**
Those swiftboat veterans are a bunch of biggity-bitches.

**ad ends**

 

[StoOgE]

But hey, lets all blame Bush because he is obviously the shadow agent behind these Swift Boat veterans and their ads.

I've absolutely no idea where you got that from. No one mentioned Bush until you.

2) Kerry's entire crew maintains that they were under fire at the time, including the guy in the water.

The fact of the matter we are dealing with a situation where a boat had just been hit by a mine and everyone was most likely in a panicked situation.. to the point where Kerry's boat lost a man in their attempt to double back to the mined boat. Im sure everyone knew exactly what was going on at the time, and Thurlow was closely inspecting what was happening to Kerry on the other side of the river while trying to rescue people from a boat just hit by a mine. I'm not sure anyone can say anything absolute about what happened that day.. human memory is a very tricky thing, after this amount of time and under those situations Im not sure you could be positive if there was or was not gun fire.

However, the fact that a republican doesnt say anything until one of the men in the event is running for president as a democrat raises eyebrows, if the swiftboat vets are so hell bent on preserving the memory of their own, this would have been an issue long ago before Kerry ever got into politics.. especially given Thurlow got a bronze star as well based on a report claiming their was enemy fire. I know he now claims to think he got the award for a different reason, but given the circumstances it seems more like a retroactive atempt to explain away damning evidence than anything else.

On top of that Thurlow is attempting to paint a picture that says Kerry went to Vietnam, so that he could fabricate reports, get out early and become a politician later. I have a feeling this guy stalks Julia Roberts in his free time.

 

[KingV]

if there was or was not gun fire.

However, the fact that a republican doesnt say anything until one of the men in the event is running for president as a democrat raises eyebrows, if the swiftboat vets are so hell bent on preserving the memory of their own, this would have been an issue long ago before Kerry ever got into politics.. especially given Thurlow got a bronze star as well based on a report claiming their was enemy fire. I know he now claims to think he got the award for a different reason, but given the circumstances it seems more like a retroactive atempt to explain away damning evidence than anything else.

I agree with the main thrust of what you say, but who exactly would they have told and who would have cared back about this information 30 years ago? In fact, for all we know these guys could have been telling everybody who would listen for the past 33 years but until now nobody gave a crap. I realize there was the Winter Soldiers investigations and the VVAW, but maybe these guys were still in Vietnam. And I'm not sure that Big Media in the 70's can really be compared to big media now, since I wasn't born yet.

 

[StoOgE]

Getting a bronze star is a HUGE deal, as is filing a false report to get one. They easily could have gone to their CO's or filed complaints with the military stating that he did not deserve said award.

Even if they didnt do that, he has been in politics for more than a decade, why wait to bring this up now? Why not when he was running for senate? Its not like this is the first time his war record has come up.

 

[HAOHMARU]

That my friend is libel and is against the law, you're saying that John Kerry commited a criminal act and there is no proof to show that he in fact did commit such an act.

John Kerry fired a M-79 grenade launcher too close, wounded himself and received a purple hear for it. That is all I am saying and it is fact. Multiple sources have stated this. Libel...WTF?

 

[KingV]

I realize this, I'm in the Navy. Maybe they just never thought it was that important until he was up for President, or they didn't have someone to front up the money for them. I don't think that it actually is that important, it will likely never get settled as it's just a he said/she said argument. There's nothing to prove for certain what exactly happened. Even if Kerry wrote the after-action report, that doesn't prove he was lying in it. Just like the lack of pay stubs for Bush doesn't definitively prove he was AWOL. It's just one of those things that might as well be put to bed because nobody really knows exactly what happens except for those that were there, and they don't seem to agree.

 

[HAOHMARU]

However, the fact that a republican doesnt say anything until one of the men in the event is running for president as a democrat raises eyebrows, if the swiftboat vets are so hell bent on preserving the memory of their own, this would have been an issue long ago before Kerry ever got into politics.. especially given Thurlow got a bronze star as well based on a report claiming their was enemy fire. I know he now claims to think he got the award for a different reason, but given the circumstances it seems more like a retroactive atempt to explain away damning evidence than anything else.

Well, all the Swifties brought this up 30 years ago and talked about the same thing. This is nothing new. Either is people talking about what Kerry told Congress about the "war attrocities" commited in Vietnam by U.S. troops. The only reason you are hearing about it now is the fact that Kerry is running for President and using his record in Vietnam as a platform.

I've absolutely no idea where you got that from. No one mentioned Bush until you.

That wasn't directed at you. I'm just agrivated that some people just resort to attacking Bush when backed against a wall.

 

[reggieandTFE]

That wasn't directed at you. I'm just agrivated that some people just resort to attacking Bush when backed against a wall.

WELCOME TO THE ENTIRE BUSH RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN. Why hasn't the RNC focused on the things Bush has done these past four years? Their ads have focused predominantly on Kerry from the start instead of the great progress under the current administration.

 

[StoOgE]

Well, all the Swifties brought this up 30 years ago and talked about the same thing. This is nothing new. Either is people talking about what Kerry told Congress about the "war attrocities" commited in Vietnam by U.S. troops. The only reason you are hearing about it now is the fact that Kerry is running for President and using his record in Vietnam as a platform.

I would first like to ask for some sort of information on that.. I've yet to see anything in all of the coverage of this that would lead me to believe that this was ever an issue up until this point in time. Im not saying it does not exist, I would just like proof, because if it is out there its being ignored.

Second, to say that all swifties brought this up seems off, seeing as how every one Kerry's boat claims that his story is accurate. Its not a matter of everyone saying one thing or another, its a case of one group of people there saying one thing and another group saying another.

As far as what Kerry did after the war, I dont see how that is pertinent to his record IN Vietnam, but sure, he very clearly spoke out against the war when he returned home (lots of vets did) and against attrocities commited by US troups (which did, happen). I know that pissed alot of vets off as well as people still serving (in fact, Thurlow himself said that his opinion 'may be clouded' by his anger at Kerry's actions after the war), but I dont see it tainting his war record at all.

 

[AntoneM]

John Kerry fired a M-79 grenade launcher too close, wounded himself and received a purple hear for it. That is all I am saying and it is fact. Multiple sources have stated this. Libel...WTF?

what sources? you don't even have to link it, just tell me who and I'll find it myself.

All I've seen are statement to the effect that Kerry's first purple heart was awarded from what might have been an accidental self inflicted wound. that hardly stands as fact.

update, I just checked ABC news, CNN and Fox News and none of tham have anything to report on the matter of whether Kerry MIGHT have gotten a purple heart from an accidental self inflicted wound. Personally if he did get one for that reason I say more power to him I don't care if you enslited or were drafted, war is hell and I would do everything I could to get out of it. For that matter I don't really care what Bush did during the Vietnam War he did what I would do... whatever it took to not fight.

 

[KingV]

The big thing about Kerry after the war is he stood up before the country, at the sides of phonies, liars and fakes at the Winter Soldier hearing and spouted line after line of bullshit testimony from the "Winter Soldiers". It's a matter of public record that many of the people involved the Winter Soldier interviews were later exposed as fakes. Most of which never even went to Vietnam. 30 Years later, this is undisputed fact. Even if Bush really actually did stand up and make up the story of Iraqi WMD, I still don't consider it as bad as what Kerry did. He turned his back on his brothers in arms, called them child killers, rapists, and thugs and enlisted the help of liars and cheats to do it.

 

[StoOgE]

Bush sent people to their death based on a lie, at worst, Kerry risked his life and then lied about what happened while he was doing so. What Kerry did didnt lead to the death of any soldiers, you cant say the same for Bush' actions... especially given that it is a matter of fact that we had soldiers raping, pillaging and commiting war crimes. That has happened in literally every war ever fought by both sides involved in the war.

So sure, Kerry may have turned his back to his brothers in arms, but Bush is doing a great job of getting them killed.

 

[KingV]

Bush sent people to their death based on a lie, at worst, Kerry risked his life and then lied about what happened while he was doing so. What Kerry did didnt lead to the death of any soldiers, you cant say the same for Bush' actions... especially given that it is a matter of fact that we had soldiers raping, pillaging and commiting war crimes. That has happened in literally every war ever fought by both sides involved in the war.

So sure, Kerry may have turned his back to his brothers in arms, but Bush is doing a great job of getting them killed.

Sure, Kerry embraced the enemy and it is publically stated by several POWs that his words were used to embolden thier captors to torture them. At worst he, what, provided psychological warfare against his countrymen to a government we were at war with while still a commissioned Naval Officer (albeit in an inactive reserve status)? That is borderline Treason.

You might not agree with the Bush war, and the intelligence was in hindsight overstated, but at least Bush didn't call his countrymen rapists and child murderers in a successful attempt to turn their own country against them.

 

[HAOHMARU]

KingV, check PMs.

 

[Fusebox]

You guys are going through something similar to what we're experiencing in Australia at the moment.

We've got an election coming up featuring a primary opposition party with no public policies or plans and whos sole strategy seems to be to smear the current leader instead of winning on their own merits.

Its fucked. It only leads to Joe Average voting for someone who they have no idea about.

 

[AntoneM]

You guys are going through something similar to what we're experiencing in Australia at the moment.

We've got an election coming up featuring a primary opposition party with no public policies or plans and whos sole strategy seems to be to smear the current leader instead of winning on their own merits.

Its fucked. It only leads to Joe Average voting for someone who they have no idea about.

except it's nothing like that at all, go figure!

 

[Fusebox]

There seems to be a lot of focus on Bushs and Kerrys past and less focus on their future policies, how is that nothing like our election?

Looking forward to your clarification.

 

[videogamer]

You guys are going through something similar to what we're experiencing in Australia at the moment.

We've got an election coming up featuring a primary opposition party with no public policies or plans and whos sole strategy seems to be to smear the current leader instead of winning on their own merits.

Its fucked. It only leads to Joe Average voting for someone who they have no idea about.

I don't know about Australia's opposition parties, but I do know that the American Democratic Party does have plans for the country. Of course, there are other people who would disagree about the quality of the plans, but they are plans nonetheless. Also, it's a tremendous hyperbole to say that the "sole strategy" is to "smear the current leader". If you read some of the Kerry campaign's website, you would find forward-looking plans for our nation's future. Nevertheless, in a political campaign nowadays, negative ads and speeches are to be expected. Our president has given a significant portion of the American population much to be angry over, and it shouldn't hurt the opposition too much to capitalize on this sentiment.

 

[videogamer]

Great post. What does it mean?

I hope my post helped to explain max_cool's post for you.

 

[AntoneM]

it means that Kerry (the challenger) has his plans all mapped out at his website for anyone and everyone to read, and the smearing we are talking about in this thread is anti-kerry. So I don't see how it relates to:

We've got an election coming up featuring a primary opposition party with no public policies or plans and whos sole strategy seems to be to smear the current leader instead of winning on their own merits.

thank you very much.

 

[Fusebox]

It did eggplant, thanks for knowing how to communicate. Look, to be honest I'm really just using the OT forum as a political compass here and theres a lot of smear and history and very little focus on the future.

Thats what I get for using GAF as a current affairs portal.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Sure, Kerry embraced the enemy and it is publically stated by several POWs that his words were used to embolden thier captors to torture them. At worst he, what, provided psychological warfare against his countrymen to a government we were at war with while still a commissioned Naval Officer (albeit in an inactive reserve status)? That is borderline Treason.

You might not agree with the Bush war, and the intelligence was in hindsight overstated, but at least Bush didn't call his countrymen rapists and child murderers in a successful attempt to turn their own country against them.

[KingV Mode On] Don't speak out! Don't you dare protest a war that you don't believe in? What you say might hurt somebody. Damn you, treasonous bastard. America's not the land of the free, where free speech is a prized right! No, you must never speak out against the government, because if you do you might aid the enemy, and any action you do which might be used by the enemy to help themselves makes you a traitor! So don't speak out against unjust wars, because you might be aiding the enemy! [KingV Mode Off]

Miguel> I sold bread to a member of Al Qaeda.

KingV> TRAITOR! You just provided Al qaeda with a source of sustenance for a few hours.

 

[KingV]

[KingV Mode On] Don't speak out! Don't you dare protest a war that you don't believe in? What you say might hurt somebody. Damn you, treasonous bastard. America's not the land of the free, where free speech is a prized right! No, you must never speak out against the government, because if you do you might aid the enemy, and any action you do which might be used by the enemy to help themselves makes you a traitor! So don't speak out against unjust wars, because you might be aiding the enemy! [KingV Mode Off]

Miguel> I sold bread to a member of Al Qaeda.

KingV> TRAITOR! You just provided Al qaeda with a source of sustenance for a few hours.

It's not that he spoke out, it's that he stood at the side of liars and crooks to do it. Potentially, he even lied himself, but he definitely was at least mistaken. I think the Vietnam War was a mistake, but there's two ways to protest something. To parallel to the current situation, there's the "Bush = Hitler" method which borders on absurd, or there's reasoned, logical arguments, which while less flashy shows that some thought was involved at arriving at your opinions. Kerry, and the VVAW were unapologetically, unequivocally the first type of protestor, Sensationalist garbage meant to pull the heartstrings, whether it was true or not.

 

[StoOgE]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...m_atrocities_revealed_in_report_boston_globe/

To parallel to the current situation, there's the "Bush = Hitler" method which borders on absurd, or there's reasoned, logical arguments, which while less flashy shows that some thought was involved at arriving at your opinions.

Im not sure what about the truth is absured. It would be similar to a current person coming home from Iraq and speaking out against what happened in Abu Graib, its a matter of fact. But what do we expect? In order for the average person to function in a war (wihtout breaking down mentally) you have to dehumanize the enemy to the point where many people will have a very hard time drawing a line at all. It has happened in literally every war ever fought by any country in history... and its something that should be realized before you ever go to war.. some of your own countrymen are going to do terrible things while they are there.

 

[KingV]

Do you even know anything ABOUT the Winter Soldier investigations? Where Kerry stood in front of the Senate with a bunch of Veterans that... weren't actually veterans, and told story after story of made up atrocities? I'm not denying that there were atrocities, but that doesn't change the fact that the Winter Soldier investigations were complete and unadulterated bullshit. It's like if I sat up here and just made stuff up about you, swearing up and down that I'd seen it myself, and then it just happened that one of the lies turned out to be true. I still lied, even though I was technically correct.