I sincerely hope that Obsidian is not charged with development of KOTOR III.

Sein

Neo Member
I'm greatly disappointed that, after having been given the opportunity to improve on one of the most highly rated games of 2003, Obsidian churned out an inferior sequel. These are my grievances:*

First, the beginning of the game is poorly paced. I cannot fathom why Obsidian decided to encumber the start of the game with a tedious escape scenario. Had I not played KOTOR I, I probably would have abandoned the game after hours of fighting mining droids, listening to holo-recordings, and learning all of the dull intricacies of Peragus station's security system.

Second, Obsidian's storytelling is inexcusably sloppy. It is as though someone went through the script and tore out every tenth page. For example, characters refer to Nihilus and the Ravager before anyone has explained that Nihilus is the masked Sith lord or that the Ravager is his vessel. Who repaired the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine? I killed all of the Jedi masters, and surely Kreia did not rebuild the Enclave for the sole purpose of having a conversation there.

What exactly does the Mass Shadow Generator do? Bao-Dur says that it is designed to restore Malachor, then later he says that it is designed to destroy the planet. Which is it?

At the end, Kreia predicts the futures of my party members, all of whom are presumably still alive. But I saw the Ebon Hawk fall into an abyss. Was my team not on board when I went to Malachor? If not, why not? And I've read that in the light-side ending, the Ebon Hawk looks undamaged, even though it was battered during the crash on Malachor.

The Republic's role in the game's events was never explained to my satisfaction. I managed to elicit from Atris the fact that she had a hand in the Republic's involvement, but it's still unclear to me why the Republic made transport of my character to Telos a high priority and why the Republic continued to monitor my whereabouts later in the game. I also do not understand why Republic ships destroyed Goto's yacht.

Throughout the game, I felt that uncovering the story was a chore. Instead of the plot revealing itself through the natural course of the game, I had to pry bits and pieces of the story from the game's characters through careful dialogue choices. I enjoy a good mystery as much as the next person, but a mystery does not require that the storyline be impenetrable.

Third, the story suffers from continuity problems. After I met with Goto, bounty hunters on Onderon tried to collect the Exchange bounty on me. But surely Goto rescinded the bounty after meeting with me. And after I visited the rebuilt Jedi Enclave, Atton informed me that the Handmaiden believed that Kreia had killed my character. But I had the Handmaiden in my team at the Enclave, and she was waiting for me at the exit after my confrontation with Kreia.

During one sequence, I saw G0-T0 destroy Remote, but immediately thereafter I saw Remote hovering around Bao-Dur.

Fourth, character development is lacking. For example, there are few opportunities to interact with Visas beyond the dialogue choices that are available as soon as she joins the party. Yet, near the end, she abruptly professes her love for my character. That's nonsensical. Obsidian focused too heavily on Kreia, at the expense of most of the other characters.

Finally, I am amazed that Obsidian had the audacity to reuse two locations and three party members from the original game. Evidently, Obsidian was not content to inherit all of the work that Bio-Ware had invested in the KOTOR game engine.

* Note that I played as a dark-side male, and perhaps some of the problems that I encountered are specific to the character type that I selected.
 
Blame Lucas Arts for giving Obsidian 10 months to develop the game. All told, I'd say they did a fine job considering the time constraints.
 
Ferrarisimo said:
Blame Lucas Arts for giving Obsidian 10 months to develop the game. All told, I'd say they did a fine job considering the time constraints.


I was going to chime my agreement with the thread starter, but if this is true then "Wow".

Given the constraints, they did a great job
 
Ferrarisimo said:
Blame Lucas Arts for giving Obsidian 10 months to develop the game. All told, I'd say they did a fine job considering the time constraints.

Lucasarts sure knows how to cut the legs off a very talented development team.
 
Shard said:
Well, to be fair Obsidian did have a working blueprint to work off of in the first KOTOR.

That si not enoguh: they were also requested to have more and better: more quests, more planets, revisions to the gameplay, etc...

From what I hear the story buils well and the quests on the putside appear elaborate and well thought out, but the game lets you down as all this build-up is not rewarded appropriately (they had to finish the game in the required time).
 
I'm buying the PC version when it comes out next month. I hope it is a bit more fleshed out.

A red flag popped up for me when I saw the release date get bumped up 3 months for the Xbox version. Damn quality get those xmas sales in.
 
Panajev2001a said:
From what I hear the story buils well and the quests on the putside appear elaborate and well thought out, but the game lets you down as all this build-up is not rewarded appropriately (they had to finish the game in the required time).

That's about right. The game spins an esoteric web of mysteries that amounts to absolutely nothing in the end. If it was clear at the start of development that time would be short, then the developers ought not to have attempted such a complex story.

Mrbob said:
I'm buying the PC version when it comes out next month. I hope it is a bit more fleshed out.

How is that at all possible? There's no chance that Lucasarts would bring the voice actors back to record new dialogue.
 
Obsidian only had 10 months to make the game, and they started while KOTOR was still in development. Obsidian did an absolutely excellent job considering what they had to work with.
 
I have sympathy for the time constraints under which the developers worked, but "considering what they had to work with" cuts very much against them. They had Bio-Ware's engine, graphics, and backstory at their disposal, and I think that they had a responsibility to do justice to Bio-Ware's work.

Ironclad_Ninja said:
they started while KOTOR was still in development.

I don't see how that's relevant. Development of KOTOR II started only two months before KOTOR I was released.
 
Ironclad_Ninja said:
Obsidian only had 10 months to make the game, and they started while KOTOR was still in development.
One of these is wrong. KOTOR1 went gold in June/July of last year. 10 months after that was only be April 2004. I'm pretty sure they didn't have the game finished by E3. =)
 
Sein said:
http://xbox.playmoreconsoles.com/interview.asp?IntID=36

According to this interview, development started two months before KOTOR I was released. KOTOR II went gold in November. That's about 18 months.
Well, the actual development of KOTOR II was done in mid-2004. The rest was just bug testing, and polishing. Also, I will agree with you on that fact that quest structure in KOTOR II needed to be re-thought, but the dialog was absolutely top-notch.
 
CrimsonSkies said:
It's Obsidians first console game and they were limited to 64 megs of Ram. They'll improve on Xbox 2 and PS3.
The five founders of Obsidian came from Black Isle which created games for consoles. Also, they pulled their employees from numerous other companies which focus on consoles, so I see no problem here.

Hey, I just learned that Obsidian is 10 minutes away from me. Located in the same county as I am.
 
Sein said:
Finally, I am amazed that Obsidian had the audacity to reuse two locations and three party members from the original game. Evidently, Obsidian was not content to inherit all of the work that Bio-Ware had invested in the KOTOR game engine.

What's the big deal? The droids are the constants in the film trilogies so I have no problem with T3 and HK-47 filling that role in the Kotor games. Plus they provide some neat connections back to the story of the first game. Also, I liked getting a chance to revisit some of my old haunts from the first game.
 
I agree with most of what you said Sein, It's like Nar Shaada is the only fully worked on location in the game. The game is unfinished period.

Edit: Hell I liked the opening though, and the characters are well designed, it's just.. dammit the game is more wasted potential than anything else.
 
I have not even played the sequel but I could follow most of your gripes, and it made me want to play the game. Seriously.
 
Ironclad_Ninja said:
Well, the actual development of KOTOR II was done in mid-2004. The rest was just bug testing, and polishing.
Not true. My friend, who's an artist at Obsidian, was creating art assets up to Oct. 2004.
 
Im pretty sure Obsidian wont be making Part 3 (if one is made at all) they have other stuff to do now. Unless lucasarts are planning it for much further down the line. I was really hoping KOTOR 3 was Biowares secret Unreal 3 engine game, but i really doubt it is.

KOTOR2 is a great testament to obsidians talents, its just a shame they didnt get the full 2 years they probably expected to make the game.
 
While I wasn't the first's biggest fan, even I am willing to concede that everything about its design, from narrative structure to technical competency, is superior to the shoddy excuse of a sequel that is KoTOR2. It's a glitchy mess of a game, weighed down by an uninteresting storyline that appropriates too much from the first installment to be considered fresh. I returned the game unfinished.
 
While i think the game is great, i agree with most of your post. There are so many things that are left unanswered or overlooked.

Darth Nahilistic? Where did he come from? Why is he so powerful?

Darth Sion? What made him the way he is? Cant have been the Dark Side.

As a dark character i was attacked by Master Vrook without any explanation, i had no lightsaber and kept getting owned in 2 hits. So i had to choose the lightsie option to avoid fighting him.

Who am I? Why am i so important apart from being an echo. General? General of what? Some space station? I mean, i thought i might come in to contact with Bastilla or maybe Revan, but no.

I finished the game today and the ending was pretty crappy. Im gonna play through as Lightside Male, hopefully its more rewarding.

KOTOR >>> KOTOR 2 (KOTOR one of the best games this gen)
 
Mr_Furious said:
Not true. My friend, who's an artist at Obsidian, was creating art assets up to Oct. 2004.
Really? Well, I guess they were working on it longer than I thought. I remember seeing an interview with Matt Gallo of Lucasarts, and he said the game was finished and this was like September-ish. He must have been misinformed.
 
*shrugs*

Could the game have been better? Yes. Is the game still good as is? Yes.

Really. Some of you just look for stuff to bitch about. And about half of the problems the original poster had, I never did(mostly stuff relating to the story- if you talk to everyone and read the flavor text during loading screens, you stay pretty well informed. Lord knows there are enough loading screens).

I suppose I'm the only person in the entire world that was satisfied with my experience with the game? Heh.
 
Raoul Duke said:
*shrugs*

Could the game have been better? Yes. Is the game still good as is? Yes.

Really. Some of you just look for stuff to bitch about. And about half of the problems the original poster had, I never did(mostly stuff relating to the story- if you talk to everyone and read the flavor text during loading screens, you stay pretty well informed. Lord knows there are enough loading screens).

I suppose I'm the only person in the entire world that was satisfied with my experience with the game? Heh.

OK guys, tell me this; I'm currently playing KOTOR1 and loving it (My Whitney Houston look-a-like is an asskicking machine at the 45 hour mark). What I want to know is, is the quality gap between 1 and 2 on the Matrix to Matrix Reloaded scale, or less than that?
 
Prine said:
While i think the game is great, i agree with most of your post. There are so many things that are left unanswered or overlooked.

Darth Nahilistic? Where did he come from? Why is he so powerful?

Darth Sion? What made him the way he is? Cant have been the Dark Side.

As a dark character i was attacked by Master Vrook without any explanation, i had no lightsaber and kept getting owned in 2 hits. So i had to choose the lightsie option to avoid fighting him.

Who am I? Why am i so important apart from being an echo. General? General of what? Some space station? I mean, i thought i might come in to contact with Bastilla or maybe Revan, but no.

I finished the game today and the ending was pretty crappy. Im gonna play through as Lightside Male, hopefully its more rewarding.

KOTOR >>> KOTOR 2 (KOTOR one of the best games this gen)

1. I'm not sure we're supposed to know the answer to that yet. Nauhilus, Sion, and Traya are characters that existed before the events of KOTOR. Traya trained Revan "before and after" his turning to the Dark Side. She tells us that there's a greater battle to be fought, and in KOTOR III, that's when all the mysteries will be revealed (hopefully). If not, I believe Nauhilus is there to mirror the exile, whether LS or DS.

2. I never beat a Jedi Master on the first go. I was able to kill Vrook and Kavar rather easily, but Zezkeroamli-sfksldf killed me in one slice. If you had Shock, Kill, or other DS powers (and weren't a Sentinel), then you could have just ran around him, casting force powers and not worrying about being hit.

3. To get the full answer to this, you need to play the Light Side. When you go to the Enclave after saving the Jedi, they explain it.

4. You were a general to Revan during the Mandalorian Wars.

5. Go to the Sith Tomb in the Cave on Korriban this time. Also, make sure that you say Revan was a guy, and that he saved the Republic. :)

I suppose I'm the only person in the entire world that was satisfied with my experience with the game? Heh.

Hells no.

OK guys, tell me this; I'm currently playing KOTOR1 and loving it (My Whitney Houston look-a-like is an asskicking machine at the 45 hour mark). What I want to know is, is the quality gap between 1 and 2 on the Matrix to Matrix Reloaded scale, or less than that?

More like the A New Hope to Empire Strikes Back scale.
 
Kcerrid 31 said:
OK guys, tell me this; I'm currently playing KOTOR1 and loving it (My Whitney Houston look-a-like is an asskicking machine at the 45 hour mark). What I want to know is, is the quality gap between 1 and 2 on the Matrix to Matrix Reloaded scale, or less than that?

It's a good ride most of the way through, but it goes off the rails near the end. It's obvious that they didn't have time to finish some of the subplots up properly, and the last area and the endings (such as they were) were clearly rush jobs. I'd still recommend playing it if you love the first, since it's a solid game for most of its length, with some very real improvements in terms of game mechanics and dialogue. Just be prepared for a handful of dangling plot threads that'll leave you saying, 'What happened to such-and-such?!' and a rather underwhelming ending.
 
Raoul Duke said:
*shrugs*

Could the game have been better? Yes. Is the game still good as is? Yes.

Really. Some of you just look for stuff to bitch about. And about half of the problems the original poster had, I never did(mostly stuff relating to the story- if you talk to everyone and read the flavor text during loading screens, you stay pretty well informed. Lord knows there are enough loading screens).

I suppose I'm the only person in the entire world that was satisfied with my experience with the game? Heh.

My problem with the game is not that it could be better. Any creative work could be better, since nothing is perfect. My problem is that KOTOR II is noticeably worse than KOTOR I. I think that it's reasonable -- and not hypercritical -- for me to expect a sequel to be at least as good as its predecessor. Sure, KOTOR II is better than KOTOR I in some respects, but it's worse in other respects, and the net change is downward.

And I think that using trivia screens to fill in the interstices in the plot is a poor narrative technique. In KOTOR II, some major plot points are mentioned only in the trivia, whereas in KOTOR I, trivia screens didn't substitute for more appropriate storytelling. The trivia either pertained to nonvital facts or reiterated points that were made elsewhere.

And I did indeed speak to every major character in the game; in fact, I often reloaded save files so that I could listen to multiple dialogue branches.
 
Thanks Anihawk. I guess i have to play it through again to fully understand the importance of my character
 
AniHawk said:
3. To get the full answer to this, you need to play the Light Side. When you go to the Enclave after saving the Jedi, they explain it.

I played through light side and I thought they just said the jedi rebuilt it. I think he is saying how could they rebuild it if he killed them all.

I really don't remember them going into depth about it, but maybe I missed some of it. A lot of the game is pretty forgetable.
 
I agree entirely with the original poster. However, I still enjoyed the game tremendously. It is so obvious that the whole game was rushed. There were so many loose threads that were not tied up by the end. Also, the whole ending was ridiculous.....
 
Will the PC version include planet of droids(which I assume is where all those hk50 came from) that was cut out from the xbox version?
 
anybody thinking of getting this *HAS* to wait for the PC version and hopes it resolves everything better. End of discussion.
 
Since we seem to have a KOTOR thread every week, I thought I'd revive this old one instead of posting a brand new one...

(And be warned: I'm spoiling everything)

I just finished it, and... hrm. I like it. I like it quite a lot. But there's a lot that bothered me. I finished it as a light side male, so I did have a few extra bits and pieces that the original poster didn't have, but overall I do agree with him. The main thing that I really really wish Obsidian had the time to finish it, because it feels like corners were cut all over the place and the last few hours in particular are really sloppy (lots of little silly errors too -- dialogue not matching subtitles, misspellings, waypoints not matching locations, etc).

It's more annoying because I REALLY like a lot of the changes they made to KOTOR. I love the way your party follows you, and that they actually integrated it into the story, but ESPECIALLY that you can turn them into Jedi. Creating and breaking down items was good when I finally realised this means I could rid myself of all the stimulants I never-ever-use and turn them into the medpacks I DO use. I like the way conversation can I love how there's a greater emphasis on using the entire party now; in KOTOR 1 I pretty much had Carth and Bastila and that was it. Now you're really forced to make sure you're up to speed with everyone and you're forced to make cool decisions on who to pick for stuff like the Leviathan mission in KOTOR 1 (the twin Dxun/Onderon teams thing was cool!). And I liked virtually everything on Nar Shaddaa.

But then you look at a world like Nar Shaddaa, and then you look at Korriban. The difference is almost embarassing. KOTOR 1's worlds were not entirely balanced, no -- Manaan had WAY more to do than Kashyyyk -- but the difference is nowhere near as pronounced as that between Nar Shaddaa and Korriban and Dantooine. Those worlds are tiny and there isn't much to do. Or the character progression. KOTOR 1's character progression was formulaic in that a piece of the puzzle was revealed every time they levelled up, but that's far preferable to KOTOR 2's system. Bao-Dur's conversation choices can be exhausted virtually instantly, while other characters (like Visas) have new choices that pop up without any prompting. Only by being an anal mofo like me and talking to everyone every time you're in the Ebon Hawk will you reveal some of those choices. And while the influence thing is cool, their resulting alignments also don't really make sense. Visas is a Sith, right? So why is it after my first conversation with her she's as light as you can be? I can't be THAT influential, surely.

I think the game is also a bit schizo with the story. I'm not sure it knows what it's trying to say. On the one hand, it does connect rather well with KOTOR 1: You visit worlds devastated by the Wars (Telos, Dantooine, Korriban) with all the results you'd expect. On the other, the Jedi/Sith bits don't fit. Where did Nihilus and Sion come from? Darth Traya/Kreia we can piece together: She was once a Jedi Master who trained Revan, then fell and dragged him with her. Fair enough. But what about the other two? What was their part in the Jedi Civil War? Why weren't they there? Where did they come from?

Darth Nihilus is a good example. I don't buy the Darth Maul analogy as much here because the Nihilus thing is MUCH worse: Over the entire game we hear how bad-ass he is, how his power is on an unfathomable scale (an entire planet AND a collection of Jedi all wiped out!), how he's the mysterious power striking at the Jedi, blah blah. We basically hear he is the most bad-ass of the bad-asses ever to exist. Except he gets betrayed and dies easily, without us ever knowing who he is or why he exists. The extra-sucky part is the Jedi Masters (Zez Kai-Ell and Kavar do, anyway) drop hints that you can piece together to a tantalising conclusion: Nihilus is like a wound in the Force that draws life to him... you are like a wound in the Force that draws life to you... he was at Malachor... YOU were at Malachor... you form bonds easily... and if a powerful bond was broken, it would result in a deep wound in the Force. So um, why was this dropped? There are so many story strands that just don't make sense, or are dropped in without conclusion, or are carelessly thrown about. Another one: If you're light side (or if you answer that Revan was good, I'm not sure), they drop in more information about Revan's fate. Except again THAT is really vague and unsatisfying. It feels like a cop-out.

I know I've whined a lot, but I really do like KOTOR 2, and I definitely recommend it to anyone who liked KOTOR 1 (I'm actually going to lend my copy to a friend tomorrow). I'm just disappointed that it was only good when it really could have been as great as the original.
 
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