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[HolyBaikal]

I happen to be a feminist, and really like the "cute girls doing cute things" genre of anime. I like moe, as long as it isn't the bad kind of moe.

Spoiler

Like some of the things I talked about that upset me a lot and make me want to cry.

I don't watch most harem and ecchi anime. But I do like moe. As long as it doesn't have the horrible things that upset me. I can enjoy shows and look past them with they don't have too many upsetting things in them. It's kind of hard to find any entertainment in the whole world that doesn't have problematic gender ideas in it.

I just said that because I thought maybe people didn't know what I meant when I said moe. To me, disliking moe is like disliking anime because of problems.

Anyway, moe anime have been personifying lots of things for a while. Like operating systems with OS-tan. And European countries in Strike Witches and Hetalia and lots of things. And guns and talks and all sorts of things from warfare from things like Kantai Collection and things like that. And even Nazis and offensive political groups. And oh, I'm forgetting about with Middle Eastern countries like Afganis-tan and so many others. There's too many to even remember.

And, as a feminist, I've kind of dreamed of doing this with feminism and other ideas I agree with. Like, there's so many feminists they could moefy and put in an anime together. Like Simone de Beauvoir, or Sylvia Rivera, and Cordelia Fine, Donna Haraway, and so many others.

The same with many socialist and anarchist people, too. There are lots of moe versions of Joseph Stalin and things about the USSR in moe, like this.

But I would love to see moe representations of socialism and anarchism and communism than just Joseph Stalin and others in the USSR. Like Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin, Rosa Luxemburg, and even newer figures like Noam Chomsky. The USSR weren't the only people who identities as communists that anime makers can make moe characters out of.

They could even make moe characters out of different kinds of feminist ideologies. And political ideologies. Lesbian feminist could be an angry yuri character. Marxist feminist could be a disenfranchised poor person. Anarcha-feminist could be in your face and boisterous. Radical feminist could be on edge and upset by gender roles all the time, maybe depicted as a bit angsty? Sex-positive feminist could be super into sex all the time and watch lots of porn. Difference feminism could be seen as a traditionalist in a Kimono and speak in old Japanese. And there are just so many wonderful ideas for all the feminist figures and types of feminism that could be moe-fied.

Maybe it would make otaku and more people in Japan more open minded to feminist and feminist ideologies. I want to live in a world where someone says "Beauvoir-sama is mai waifu." :3

 

[John Kowalski]

I want a slice of life about soviet scientists developing prototype space rockets.

 

[maxcriden]

HB, have you checked out Japanese dramas at all? I've found there are quite a few with feminist messages to them.

Some recommendations:

Freeter, ie o kau (main female characters include a mother dealing with depression and a foreman at a construction site)
Late Blooming Sunflower~My Life Renewed (female doctor and other characters navigating their way through life in JP countryside)
Saigo Kara Nibanme no Koi (female tv producer retiring drama)
At Home Dad (woman goes back to workplace, dad stays home, lots of very real and humorous drama)

 

[HolyBaikal]

HB, have you checked out Japanese dramas at all?

Yes, I have. And thank you for the recommendations.

I haven't seen At Home Dad, and it sounds interesting.

 

[Trojita]

It's funny that moe has somehow become a genre itself apparently.

 

[pants]

keep using the word moe like it means something brehs.

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

Oh god no.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Moe... is a funny word that means a lot of things.. I do think.

 

[Ryuukan]

So you want to spread feminism by hiding the reasons it exists because they upset you?

 

[maxcriden]

Yes, I have. And thank you for the recommendations.

I haven't seen At Home Dad, and it sounds interesting.

My pleasure! AHD was really terrific. You should be able to find it for free pretty easily, but don't hesitate to ask if you have trouble finding it. Enjoy it, it's great.

 

[freenudemacusers]

My Little Sister Can't Be This Independent

edit: why are we talking about lesbians and sex-positive characters? isn't moe about kids?

 

[studyguy]

isn't moe about kids?

No. Moe is whatever you want it to be, homie.

 

[BocoDragon]

I feel like appreciation for feminist legacy, and the anime industry industry as it currently is, do not have much overlap...

Good concept though. It's actually less wild of a thought than most "moe based on real life things".

 

[HolyBaikal]

So you want to spread feminism by hiding the reasons it exists because they upset you?

Oh, no! I was talking about moe, some things about moe upset me.

I want to spread feminism and I like both things. So having them together would be nice.
A lot of people hear the word feminism and are against it. Maybe a moe anime about it would make more people let their guard down.

 

[PhantomHound]

No. Moe is whatever you want it to be, homie.

Clearly tsundere

I hope Tank-Sempai notices me.

 

[TUSR]

I'm unsure how to respond. Give me a couple of decades to process this.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I don't know if more or less infantilizing these famous figures would actually be seen as a positive, feminist message. "Moe" characters by like definition seem to lack any agency, even when they're personalized as tough or snarky, there's always sort of this implied weakness inherent in their design.

Although I don't know what the overall feeling towards "moe" is among the average feminist. I can't say I've ever thought of those types of shows as having a positive message for women, if anything, they seem to be mainly aimed at men now and display a really superficial view of how women interact with one another.

As I said in my other thread, I felt American cartoons focusing on women were far stronger, even with their own issues. They tended to actually focus on real issues young women faced, and were often uncomfortable because of that and challenged the male-dominated cartoon atmosphere. I'm talking about the ones during the 90s/early 2000s like Pepper Ann and As Told By Ginger. I'd say My Little Pony, despite being co-opted by men, is probably easily above the average anime when it comes to positive messages for women.

 

[freenudemacusers]

No. Moe is whatever you want it to be, homie.

well, i don't think i've ever seen a moe discussion online that was about adult characters, and whenever moe is discussed here, proponents seem to describe it on terms of innocence, 'cute' characters and such...

an anime about someone like this watching porn under the umbrella of 'feminism' would creep me out.

 

[Ryuukan]

Oh, no! I was talking about moe, some things about moe upset me.

I want to spread feminism and I like both things. So having them together would be nice.
A lot of people hear the word feminism and are against it. Maybe a moe anime about it would make more people let their guard down.

So you can deal with the struggles early feminists went through but a pretend anime girl crying is completely off-limits?

 

[R.D.Blax]

Clearly tsundere

I hope Tank-Sempai notices me.

"It's not like I want to blow you ! Baka !"

 

[Puruzi]

This seems incredibly silly.

 

[studyguy]

Sidestepping the whole discussion so far to lay done some real shit. The idea of artstlye itself is largely inconsequential to the aim of the author/artist in whatever they're trying to put across to the viewer/reader. There's nothing stopping something cute from putting forth a heartfelt or meaningful message imo. Strictly moe for the sake of being moe seems pretty simple in concept, especially when talking about slice of life, in those cases the premise of the shows are never going to be all that deep. Still something closer akin to Calvin and Hobbes comes across when you read Yotsuba or things like it.

It's cute, cheerful and light, but I mean it gets some small messages across in the same way C&H did imo. Whether it's interactions with young children or changes in life, etc.

That being said, moe slice of life feminist title is a fucking weird concept.

 

[HolyBaikal]

So you can deal with the struggles early feminists went through but a pretend anime girl crying is completely off-limits?

That other thread still upsets me and ended badly. Let's please not talk about that.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Opps, I made a double post. I didn't know the thread would slow down a little.
I'm sorry.

 

[Ryuukan]

That other thread still upsets me and ended badly. Let's please not talk about that.

I'm sure all of your 'feminist waifu' would be well remembered if they all chose to "not talk about it"

 

[HolyBaikal]

I don't know if more or less infantilizing these famous figures would actually be seen as a positive, feminist message.

What does infantilization mean to you, if you don't mind me asking?

I read online that infantilization means "To treat or condescend to". If that's what it means, I don't think they should be infantilized. And that's not what moe means to me.

"Moe" characters by like definition seem to lack any agency, even when they're personalized as tough or snarky, there's always sort of this implied weakness inherent in their design.

I don't think that's true.

I don't think that most moe characters have weaknesses and flaws. But don't most fictional characters have weaknesses and flaws?

 

[Ultimadrago]

Well, there is a "Moe Dictators" book (titled Nyotai ka!! Sekai no Dokusaisha Retsuden) you could hunt down...

 

[The Smoking Bun]

Do Feminists exist in Japan?

 

[pants]

I'm sure all of your 'feminist waifu' would be well remembered if they all chose to "not talk about it"

NSFW

http://i.imgur.com/ThxxhY9.jpg

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

What does infantilization mean to you, if you don't mind me asking?

I read online that infantilization means "To treat or condescend to". If that's what it means, I don't think they should be infantilized. And that's not what moe means to me.

Moe characters always strike me, as well, like dolls. They have a really superficial personality, have a sort of innocence to them and imply a need to be "protected", and just don't seem to have any agency. One of the posters in my thread made a great point about how there's no such thing as a moe-character who is actually 'sex-positive', there's always an awkwardness about them that is made to appeal to the viewer. The opposite of how I imagine a feminist icon would be.

I don't think that's true.

I don't think that most moe characters have weaknesses and flaws. But don't most fictional characters have weaknesses and flaws?

There's a difference. The weakness of a moe character is basically inherent to their design, they are designed to look fragile. You can have a strongly written moe character, but if they're designed to look like a little child, always blushing, looking unsure of themselves, which more or less is basically what moe is as far as I understand, then there's going to be a weakness about them regardless of what message they put.

Do Feminists exist in Japan?

Uh, yes. Every place on earth has feminists, although the goal-posts are of course different depending on the culture. Japan has a major sexism-issue, so naturally there are people who speak out against it.

 

[Puruzi]

Most moe characters are bland, but there are shows with good moeblobs like Madoka

 

[SDBurton]

I'm sure all of your 'feminist waifu' would be well remembered if they all chose to "not talk about it"

/thread

Honestly OP, if you wanna have your heart stirred just watch Marimite or Simoun. Both shows are fantastic.

 

[Zane]

You're weird

 

[HolyBaikal]

I'm sure all of your 'feminist waifu' would be well remembered if they all chose to "not talk about it"

To be honest, I don't think I'm as strong as the feminists I look up to. If something happened to me like happened to Anita Sarkeesian. I might become scared and bed-ridden.

And also, I don't want this thread to get locked like the other thread. If we started talking about that, I'm afraid this thread might get locked, too. I'm sorry if I hurt someone's thread for a visual novel they liked. It was just for the Greenlight, I think someone could make an "OT" thread or something for it. I wouldn't bother it. And I'm sorry if I hurt anyone from what I talked about.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Most moe characters are bland, but there are shows with good moeblobs like Madoka

But in cases like that it just strikes me as a "despite being moe". Like whenever I hear that show brought up, it's "well, it's a great show despite having little moe girls..."

So HolyBaikal wanting to use moe to push these messages...it's just like, why? Why do you need to make these famous icons into cute characters to get across their message? To me it just strikes me as a fetish disguised as social progress.

 

[Mechanical Snowman]

What was the 'other thread'? Need context.

 

[Fugu]

I feel like the reason this hasn't happened yet is because representing women as proto-babies with big eyes and (usually, but not always) superficial personalities is fairly at odds with feminism. It might be as close as you can get to reinforcing stereotypical gender roles in the form of anime.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Moe characters always strike me, as well, like dolls. They have a really superficial personality, have a sort of innocence to them and imply a need to be "protected"

Maybe we have a different idea of who moe characters are.

Because if moe characters are infantalized, then maybe I'm infantalizing myself. Because I look up to and would like to be more like lots of moe characters.

The characters in Axis Power Hetalia are moe, to me. They act a lot like the characters in K-On! and things like that. Are they like dolls?

 

[Spider from Mars]

All moe is bad moe.

 

[Zane]

Maybe we have a different idea of who moe characters are.

Because if moe characters are infantalized, then maybe I'm infantalizing myself. Because I look up to and would like to be more like lots of moe characters.

The characters in Axis Power Hetalia are moe, to me. They act a lot like the characters in K-On! and things like that. Are they like dolls?

You are infantalizing yourself

 

[Puruzi]

But in cases like that it just strikes me as a "despite being moe". Like whenever I hear that show brought up, it's "well, it's a great show despite having little moe girls..."

I get what you're saying, but Madoka is better because it has moe girls. What it does wouldn't work as well if they were regular characters imo. A bit off topic, but I just wanted to say that all moe isn't inherently bad, even though most is

 

[HolyBaikal]

/thread

I would like to. But I feel like I'm not going to come to an understanding with other users, and it would just turn nasty and people would make fun of me and say mean things again.

The moderators locked the threads where I talked about it twice. And a moderator even told me that NeoGAF wasn't a good place to try to talk about that sort of thing. So I might even get in trouble with the moderators if I try to keep talking about it.

So if we don't talk about it, we're not just respecting my wishes, but also the wishes of the moderators.

 

[Ryuukan]

Maybe we have a different idea of who moe characters are.

Because if moe characters are infantalized, then maybe I'm infantalizing myself. Because I look up to and would like to be more like lots of moe characters.

The characters in Axis Power Hetalia are moe, to me. They act a lot like the characters in K-On! and things like that. Are they like dolls?

Your goal is to spread feminism. Hetalia's goal is not to teach world history, its just satire. Doesn't make sense to compare the two.

 

[freenudemacusers]

To me it just strikes me as a fetish disguised as social progress.

pretty much.

 

[HolyBaikal]

You're weird

You're being mean. :<

 

[Mechanical Snowman]

So what was the other thread...

 

[Puruzi]

So what was the other thread...

Don't.

 

[Fugu]

You are infantalizing yourself

You're being mean. :<

You're providing a lot of fodder for this argument, OP.

 

[HolyBaikal]

You are infantalizing yourself

I don't know. If it's the defition in Google, then I don't think so. And I can see why people think that infantization is bad.

But if this is infantilization, the way I like to behave and the things I enjoy. Then I like infantilizing myself. And find it empowering.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Maybe we have a different idea of who moe characters are.

Because if moe characters are infantalized, then maybe I'm infantalizing myself. Because I look up to and would like to be more like lots of moe characters.

The characters in Axis Power Hetalia are moe, to me. They act a lot like the characters in K-On! and things like that. Are they like dolls?

Well, not to offend you, but I think you do sort of have an issue with acting a bit---infantile. It doesn't have anything to do with your tastes or anything, rather I think people are a bit bugged by how you always talk about your feelings getting hurt in extremely vague terms, and needlessly apologize for things you don't have any reason to apologize for. So, yes, I do think you're infantalizing yourself in your attempt to be more like moe characters.

As for the Axis Power Hetalia characters, yes, I consider them dolls...they're personifications of countries with superficial personalities that trivialize real life. They're more or less like if you made a line of Barbies where each one was an ethnic stereotype.