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[fennec fox]

http://www.icv2.com/articles/talkback/7483.html

For years people like me have given a lot of serious thought to why super-hero comic books don't sell better. Even now, during one of our brief periodic "booms" when comic consciousness is at an apex, sales of the actual books remain, for the most part, static. I tend to break down the most likely reasons into three categories:

* The distribution system
* The format
* The contents

In last Sunday's New York Times there was a lengthy piece about Leslie Moonves, chairman of CBS, which had a quote from him about why he ultimately decided to cancel the cult favorite program Joan of Arcadia:

"In the beginning, it was a fresh idea and uplifting, and the plot lines were engaging," Moonves said, sounding a little sad and frustrated, "But the show got too dark. I understand why creative people like dark, but American audiences don't like dark. They like story. They do not respond to nervous breakdowns and unhappy episodes that lead nowhere. They like their characters to be part of the action. They like strength, not weakness, a chance to work out any dilemma. This is a country built on optimism."

Of course Les isn't entirely right. Americans do like dark; see the success of such FX series as Nip/Tuck, Rescue Me, and Over There. But it's undeniable that fewer do; as good as they are, these are considered "niche" programs on a "boutique" network (i.e., they're not The Big Tent). Recently Rescue Me cast member Diane Farr left the program to join the cast of CBS's Numb3rs because it offered her a higher salary--more viewers equaling more money.

What I propose here is that we may finally have to accept the notion the super-hero comic book is a "niche" genre; not because this vast mass audience rejects as silly our cherished adolescent power/revenge fantasies. From the way Hollywood has steadily been "borrowing" from us over the last few years its clear America has developed a taste for the fantastic.

But as currently written and drawn, the super-hero comic book is just too overwhelmingly dark to appeal to them.

In one of those strange coincidences that plague our industry, earlier this year on the same month DC released Wonder Woman #202 and Marvel The Pulse #2. Both comics featured a major villain brutally and ruthlessly killing a minor cast member. As written they were genuinely chilling scenes integral to the plot, but as the months went by and the criminals went unpunished it became clear the Green Goblin and Dr. Psycho had just gotten away with murder. They were never going to be punished for their crimes. Never.

Because, ultimately, the publishers need them both too much to permanently put them in a cell or stick a needle in their arms, if not next month then next year; and by then they'll have committed fresh new atrocities and no one will remember (or care) about the death of a couple of nobodies.

Batman can't protect Gotham City. Every recent issue has been another variation on the theme that the world's greatest detective is incapable of capturing a criminal who's only distinguishing characteristic is he wears a piece of his father's coffin on his face. And it should be noted that Blackmask keeps a private torture garden in his office where he occasionally flails some poor innocent schmuck so the writer can once again hammer home the point, "oooh, he's baaaad."

The Flash is clearly incapable of capturing any of his Rogue's Gallery, not even Captain Cold whose entire shtick consists of a freeze gun and a parka.

In Spider-Man: Breakout #5 it's established the criminals Crossfire and The U-Foes killed (at least) fifteen people -- and the U-Foes escape.

In the just published Green Lantern #4 we see the return of the villains Hector Hammond, reborn as a Hannibal Lector style psychopath (with an unhealthy attachment to Hal Jordan) and the Shark, who emerged from the surf...with a human body part dangling from his jaw.

In Marvel Knights Spider-Man, the Absorbing Man is depicted as being a drug addict.

And not long before the light-hearted, much reviled Fantastic Four movie (which, according to some, was a hit because it wasn't a teeth-gnashing super-hero movie), in the comics "noble" villain Dr. Doom killed the only woman he'd ever loved and started running around wearing her skin as a mask.

As a man of a certain age I can vividly remember the Silver Age, but it would be a mistake to see this as a diatribe about how comic books should go back to The Good Old Days of alpha males and happy endings, consarn it. I'm simply asking, in all abject honesty, is this really anybody's idea of fun?

 

[Flynn]

http://www.icv2.com/articles/talkback/7483.html

His assertion that superhero comics are a niche genre is correct, but for the wrong reasons. Readers don't continue to abandon comics because they're dark, but because they're inherently silly. Guys in skin-tight costumes that fly around and punch each other is goofy to the mainstream public, no matter what kind of "mature" subtext you inject into the story line.

 

[G4life98]

His assertion that superhero comics are a niche genre is correct, but for the wrong reasons. Readers don't continue to abandon comics because they're dark, but because they're inherently silly. Guys in skin-tight costumes that fly around and punch each other is goofy to the mainstream public, no matter what kind of "mature" subtext you inject into the story line.

no thats wrong to because the mainstream will embrace all types of goofy shit...comics biggest problems are distrubution and prohibitivly priced for new readers.

 

[Escape Goat]

Guys in skin tight uniforms chasing a ball isn't silly

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

no thats wrong to because the mainstream will embrace all types of goofy shit...comics biggest problems are distrubution and prohibitivly priced for new readers.

Prohibitively proced *and* prohibitively complex. You can't just pick up a comic and read a story anymore, you've got to collec the whole "arc." Comics stories that ran 4 issues used to be rare, now that's about average. Plus, many (not all) comics rely on the readers' understanding of a complex backstory.

 

[karasu]

Weird. I thought superhero books were the mainstream genre in a niche medium. They can't be that 'niche' if they get 643 movies a year. Not that there's anything wrong with being niche. Not everything needs to be mainstream. Thank God everything isn't mainstream.

 

[FoneBone]

Fenky -- have you at least read Watchmen?

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I understand where the author and Mr. Moonves are coming from, but they're off the mark by just a bit.

It's not necessarily the "dark" that drove the actual comic books themselves to niche, it was that the darkness was less focused and skillfully integrated. It's more like a reverse Deus Ex Machina that fucks over shit whenever spirits rise. Nihilism in the place of actual mature storylines in most cases.

And that's only one reason. Ignatz brought up two more with story arcs all over creation and higher issue prices, then there's characters in 50 issues a month, artists not being able to draw fight scenes worth beans for a long while, and taking characters that reside on years of backstory off that foundation over and over again yet still trying to build these huge backstories, (that are similar but different).

 

[VALIS]

That is one odd and delusional explaination. Wow. There are a multitude of problems including, as previously mentioned, price and complex back stories. Also, comics (the non-trade paperback kind) are only available in comic shops and those are few and far between and carry a huge geek stigma that would keep a lot of people out. You have to go to a comic book store to buy comic books, and not many people are gonna do that who aren't fans already. Also, they could really stand to bring back covers that have something to do with and entice the story inside, not these pointless and lifeless pin-up type covers. If I see a Spider-Man cover that has him fighting the Vulture on the side of a skyscraper (with some text balloons, too, thanks!) that's gonna catch my eye and my interest. But if I see a Spider-Man cover with him just posing, my eyes are scanning right past it as "generic superhero comic."

 

[Flynn]

the mainstream will embrace all types of goofy shit....

Superhero comics are only one type of goofy shit. For a medium, like movies, tvs, novels, music or whatever, to be valid it has to be all-encompassing. American comics, which are 99% superdude-centric are far from all-encompassing.

If the only movies out were superhero movies, you could bet that people would stop going to the movies too.

Wait...

 

[G4life98]

Superhero comics are only one type of goofy shit. For a medium, like movies, tvs, novels, music or whatever, to be valid it has to be all-encompassing. American comics, which are 99% superdude-centric are far from all-encompassing.

If the only movies out were superhero movies, you could bet that people would stop going to the movies too.

Wait...

but tv, movies and music all have genres that are more dominant than others, much like the superhero genre and american comics. those other industries are just bigger and produce more content so there is more variiety even though it is a small percentage of what the medium produces.

the biggest thing comic companies need to do is get back to the poit where if you see a magazine rack, there is a comic rack right next to it.

 

[Flynn]

I know I'm not going to be able to convince you that it's more subject matter than distribution that's killing comics, but here's a couple of interesting surveys of comics sales numbers.

More thematic diversity back then:

1952

* Walt Disney Comics and Stories 2,850,000
* Sweethearts (Fawcett) circa 1,000,000
* Young Romance circa 800,000
* Classics Illustrated 670,000
* Romantic Adventures (ACG) circa 650,000
* Adventures into the Unknown (ACG-1953) circa 550,000
* Tales From the Crypt (EC-1953) 400,000
* Treasure Chest 329.903
* Mad (EC-1953) 325,000
* Two-Fisted Tales (EC-1953) 225,000

VS manga and indies the only alternative today:

2005
Shonen Jump 177,000
The New Avengers 154,000*
Astonishing X-Men 134,000*
Superman/Batman 117,000*
Superman 104,000*
Wolverine 89,000*
Ultimate X-Men 87,000*
Ultimate Spider-Man 86,000*
Amazing Spider-Man 81,000*
Teen Titans 65,000*
JLA 64,000*
Batman 60,000*

From:
Part One
Part Two

 

[shoplifter]

The Flash is clearly incapable of capturing any of his Rogue's Gallery, not even Captain Cold whose entire shtick consists of a freeze gun and a parka.

I quit reading right there.

 

[G4life98]

I know I'm not going to be able to convince you that it's more subject matter than distribution that's killing comics, but here's a couple of interesting surveys of comics sales numbers.

More thematic diversity back then:




VS manga and indies the only alternative today:



From:
Part One
Part Two

that comparison doesnt even support your point...it only shows that over time "the capes" proved to be a more dominant genre.

im not saying a greater variety isnt good for comics...especially at the big houses like marvel and dc, but the simple fact is you cant force people to buy books and all those "non-cape" books wont be worth the paper they are printed on if you cant get them to people who care and for the most part those people dont visit comic shops.

and honestly price is a big factor too..i would go back to newsprint if it meant a buck or so less.

 

[shoplifter]

and honestly price is a big factor too..i would go back to newsprint if it meant a buck or so less.

I hear that from a lot of people, but I'll be much happier with my $3 purchase if I can still read it in 40 years without the time wear that I see even on stuff from 15 years ago.

 

[Flynn]

that comparison doesnt even support your point...it only shows that over time "the capes" proved to be a more dominant genre.

im not saying a greater variety isnt good for comics...especially at the big houses like marvel and dc, but the simple fact is you cant force people to buy books and all those "non-cape" books wont be worth the paper they are printed on if you cant get them to people who care and for the most part those people dont visit comic shops.
.

More dominant, but selling at 1/10th the volume. It does support my point. As diversity dropped, so did overall sales.

 

[G4life98]

More dominant, but selling at 1/10th the volume. It does support my point. As diversity dropped, so did overall sales.

first of all you cant really compare eras since prices were a fraction of what they are now and they hardly had to face the stiff competition from other media that comic companies do now.

and the simple fact is all those other comics died and the capes survived.

its not like companies just said, "hey, lets drop all thes great books in favor of dudes in capes" the consumer chose.

 

[LuCkymoON]

I think one of the biggest problems with comics today:
Long running series.
Its great that Super X-Friends is in its 200th issue but this scares new readers away. No one wants to read from the middle. They want to start at the first and ACTUALLY get to an ending. I think it would be great if Comic companies would break up thier large big name series in to volumes of short story arcs with trade paperbacks following closely behind and not years later. I dunno.... Thats one of the reasons I stopped reading Xmen and Punisher. The other is that they will never come to an end, I hate that most off all.

 

[shoplifter]

its not like companies just said, "hey, lets drop all thes great books in favor of dudes in capes" the consumer chose.

It could be argued that the comics code played a bigger role in that than the comic-buying public.

 

[Flynn]

first of all you cant really compare eras since prices were a fraction of what they are now and they hardly had to face the stiff competition from other media that comic companies do now.

and the simple fact is all those other comics died and the capes survived.

its not like companies just said, "hey, lets drop all thes great books in favor of dudes in capes" the consumer chose.

Consumers chose not to read comics at all. The tiny group that remain read superhero books.

You make it sound like millions decided that superhero books are the superior genre, when in fact, the decided that comics just aren't for them. They stopped reading comics altogether.

It's important to mention that the dawning of the comics code, which effectively neutered comics stories of all intrigue and danger occurs a the same time as the gradual decline -- this is the same time when publishers such as EC began to bow out of publishing anything but the safest product.

And your "stiff competition" arguement doesn't hold up, considering the fact that television and films were huge forces at their time. The decline of comics happened before video games, so don't go there, in fact one of the biggest upswing in comics sales occured during the 8bit and 18bit generations, so don't try to argue that video games killed the comics business.

Pricing is a good argument, considering the fact that prices have grown way past the average inflation rate. But still, no matter how cheaply you price a superhero book, you're just not going to get people to buy them.

I'd love to see the numbers on the "Free Comics Day" give aways. I'd bet they're just as poor as the contemporary sales numbers.

 

[G4life98]

It could be argued that the comics code played a bigger role in that than the comic-buying public.

im not familiar with the whole history of the code and how it affected content...do you know of any pplaces to find out some info?

 

[shoplifter]

im not familiar with the whole history of the code and how it affected content...do you know of any pplaces to find out some info?

heres one article i googled up pretty quickly. i'm sure there are better ones out there

http://www.sideroad.com/comics/column12.html

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Every fucking week, I swear!

It's obvious what's wrong with the US comic market, but inside forces will not change that. You won't get interesting new books, you'll just get three or four flavors of Spider / X / Super + Man; and if that doesn't stick - then clearly there's "something wrong with the market" and not product. :/

I care about the comic industry, but apathy wins out. I know what I like to read; and it isn't the four color funnies from Marvel and DC.

I just finished up three volumes of Hyper Police which I picked up for Mee's ability to draw hot babes; and I came away fairly impressed with his story telling ability too. A main character had a couple children, instead of just depicting throwaway sex. A main character's house burned down. Characters reactions were pretty believable in all these circumstances, even if they are wacky furries.

There was more change in three volumes of that book; than in the past 20 years of most comics.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Every fucking week, I swear!

It's obvious what's wrong with the US comic market, but inside forces will not change that. You won't get interesting new books, you'll just get three or four flavors of Spider / X / Super + Man; and if that doesn't stick - then clearly there's "something wrong with the market" and not product. :/

I care about the comic industry, but apathy wins out. I know what I like to read; and it isn't the four color funnies from Marvel and DC.

I just finished up three volumes of Hyper Police which I picked up for Mee's ability to draw hot babes; and I came away fairly impressed with his story telling ability too. A main character had a couple children, instead of just depicting throwaway sex. A main character's house burned down. Characters reactions were pretty believable in all these circumstances, even if they are wacky furries.

There was more change in three volumes of that book; than in the past 20 years of most comics.

or so you like to believe.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

or so you like to believe.

So, tell me where I can read about Peter Parker and Mary Jane's son; snake oil pimp.

Just an example. I can think of countless others if you want to go toe to toe.

The fact of the matter is these character's lives will remain in a state of closely guarded faux evolution; and if things go too far - ULTIMATE! HOUSE OF M! ALL STAR! "Reboot!"

A new Superman for Thursday! :lol

 

[Shinobi]

More dominant, but selling at 1/10th the volume. It does support my point. As diversity dropped, so did overall sales.

WTF...there's more variety now then there's ever been.

I think price is the main issue...the idea of coughing up $4.50 to read something I could blow through in less then five minutes is just laughable to me. Couple that with the fact that you've got long arcs that encompass most of these issues so you can't afford to miss one, plus the fact that few places outside of comic stores sell them, and frankly it's a wonder the sales numbers are as high as that link above suggests.

I'd like to know how TPB's sell in comparison...I reckon that would be fascinating.

 

[DDayton]

I've never been fond of stories which have ONLY a depressing ending and never get resolved...

Not that that really ties into all this, but I do prefer the Silver age stuff to the "modern age" stuff. Maybe it's just because characters weren't being killed/changed/replaced/etc. every year.

(Whatever was the deal with the Superman in contrasting color outfits they did a few years back, right after the SUPERMAN CAME BACK FROM ZEE DEAD gimmick?)

 

[Flynn]

WTF...there's more variety now then there's ever been.

I think price is the main issue...the idea of coughing up $4.50 to read something I could blow through in less then five minutes is just laughable to me. Couple that with the fact that you've got long arcs that encompass most of these issues so you can't afford to miss one, plus the fact that few places outside of comic stores sell them, and frankly it's a wonder the sales numbers are as high as that link above suggests.

I'd like to know how TPB's sell in comparison...I reckon that would be fascinating.

I don't think you're fully aware of the diversity of comic book subjects in the '30s through the '50s.

Besides the indies of Fantagraphics, etc. pretty much all comics are sci-fi, fantasy releated -- even much of the girl-centric manga.

In those days there were westerns, romance (broken into tons of subgenres), crime, pirates, war, and a vast, vast amount of childrens title. Many of these genres were represented with female-centric titles as well.

To call what we have now in comics "diversity" is a little depressing. Go look at the shelfs in your local video store. That's diversity.

 

[MASB]

1960
Mad Magazine 1,048,550
Uncle Scrooge 1,040,543
Walt Disney's Comics and Stories 1,004,901
Donald Duck 930,613
Superman 800,000

Ah, the good ol' days.

 

[krypt0nian]

His assertion that superhero comics are a niche genre is correct, but for the wrong reasons. Readers don't continue to abandon comics because they're dark, but because they're inherently silly. Guys in skin-tight costumes that fly around and punch each other is goofy to the mainstream public, no matter what kind of "mature" subtext you inject into the story line.

If people can watch and enjoy 24 then superheroes are not much of a jump.

 

[Flynn]

If people can watch and enjoy 24 then superheroes are not much of a jump.

The American public likes their superheroes in Members Only jackets, not tights.

Your point is dead on, though. But there's this weird thing going on right now in our culture where people want "realistic" heros -- people that make them feel big and strong -- even within the genres, people seem to be leaning towards grim, grounded heros over the fantastic.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

I think another contributing factor to the lack of public interest is marketing. When was the last time you saw an ad for comic books on television?

Not a cartoon, which is an ad. Not a movie for a licensed game or movie. An ad for comics.

Again, I'd love to have more info on the European comic market to cite, I've got to fall back on the example of Japan. Back when fansubs were acquired through networking and Nth generation VHS copies straight from TV; it wasn't uncommon to see a commercial for Shonen Junk / Ace on Japanese television.

I don't believe that even the most narrow minded comic nerd (the ones who think the market is fine, just fine) would argue that better marketing of comics would be a bad thing.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

1. Make comics for kids again. Seriously, and how about some nice, self-contained stories.
2. Make comics cheap again
3. Make comics on cheaper paper again, to bring costs down. I don't care if it fades. I read comics, I don't collect 'em.
4. More pages per comic, please
5. Bring back the funny books. I miss reading Capser the wimpy ghost and Scrooge McDuck at my local Safeway grocery store.
6. The artwork doesn't always have to be super-dynamic and the coloring doesn't always have to be CG. I enjoy the artwork in an issue of "West Coast Avengers" or "Dazzler" from 1987 just as much as I would in an issue of "Ultimate X-Men" from 2003.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

1. Make comics for kids again. Seriously, and how about some nice, self-contained stories.

They're out there, they're just rare and the market shouldn't have to bear the burden of Spiderman for losers who never moved out of their parents basement, and Spiderman for legal dependants.

2. Make comics cheap again
3. Make comics on cheaper paper again, to bring costs down. I don't care if it fades. I read comics, I don't collect 'em.

Fuck that. Old comics don't fade horribly unless you leave them in the sun. I've got 30 years worth of comics, and the ones that are beat to hell are that way because I beat them to hell.

Not to mention the super high glossy pages aren't conducive to reading comics in the bath. I've got thumbprints on the pages of some of my Savage Dragon issues because of that god damned stupid glossy paper.

4. More pages per comic, please

They have a hard enough time getting the lazy fuck artists to draw 22 pages; much less 36 or 48.

6. The artwork doesn't always have to be super-dynamic and the coloring doesn't always have to be CG. I enjoy the artwork in an issue of "West Coast Avengers" or "Dazzler" from 1987 just as much as I would in an issue of "Ultimate X-Men" from 2003.

I totally agree on the coloring. There are too many books today in which the coloring is terribly overdone, to the point of it taking away from the line art; or obscuring it completely, at which point you wonder why the colorist just didn't illustrate the damned book?

That House of M Iron Man is a fine example of shit coloring overcompensating for poor drawing skills. :X

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Fuck that. Old comics don't fade horribly unless you leave them in the sun. I've got 30 years worth of comics, and the ones that are beat to hell are that way because I beat them to hell.

Not to mention the super high glossy pages aren't conducive to reading comics in the bath. I've got thumbprints on the pages of some of my Savage Dragon issues because of that god damned stupid glossy paper.

Yep, same here. I take good care of my 'older' comics(and I've got shit from the fifties), and they as just as readable as they ever were. Heck....(this is gonna sound corny), I kinda prefer the 'aged' look in some cases. Okay, maybe not, but there's a certain novelty to the 'old and browning' classic comics.

As for lazy as fuck artists...kick their asses! I know a guy who draws a 30 page comic every WEEK. And he does it for himself, without pay! These artists don't have to make everything so detailed, just draw it well enough so that it conveys the story!

More simplistic artwork like this

less like this --> http://jeanmarc.besnier.club.fr/jmb-art.com/images/Planches/battlechasers-prelude-p06.jpg

 

[G4life98]

I think another contributing factor to the lack of public interest is marketing. When was the last time you saw an ad for comic books on television?

Not a cartoon, which is an ad. Not a movie for a licensed game or movie. An ad for comics.

Again, I'd love to have more info on the European comic market to cite, I've got to fall back on the example of Japan. Back when fansubs were acquired through networking and Nth generation VHS copies straight from TV; it wasn't uncommon to see a commercial for Shonen Junk / Ace on Japanese television.

I don't believe that even the most narrow minded comic nerd (the ones who think the market is fine, just fine) would argue that better marketing of comics would be a bad thing.

but honestly how do you effectively market comics, outside of print mediums?

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Going on the Japanese comic television ads I saw, talk up the story; or hot character and promote the release date. Here for example, Marvel or DC could do something simple on Saturday mornings - "New in comic shops this week!" and show a montage of pages, and the covers for the weeks upcoming big books.

Granted that could be a hassle, but I think it would be worth the effort. The only problem would be this would enforce the status quo belief that comics are a medium good only for children, and it wouldn't do much to promote the good comics like 100 Bullets, Hellblazer, or other stuff.

Then again, who's to say DC can't advertise those books during Buffy reruns or Smallville?

 

[DDayton]

Give us more Scrooge McDuck comics...

It's amazing when Lucas, Spielberg, and all sorts of other interesting folks keep crediting the Donald and Scrooge McDuck comics for their childhood inspiration.

(I still love the story of how a ship salvage guy took an idea from an old Scrooge comic and used it to successfully raise parts of a sunken ship.)

Oh, question here, regardings children's comics... what are the sales of the various Archie comics and "digests"? I thought I remember hearing that they were very good, which isn't surprising... given that they are the only "true" children's comic still being produced.

 

[Littleberu]

It angers me that they don't give comic books during the first week of a comic book themed movie. They could've given a copy of a custom made Batman book for Batman Begins, or for the Fantastic Four, even Hellboy.

Comic books need to get out of the comic books store. I need to buy my Comics by MAIL.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

...even Hellboy.

Hellboy opened with free copies of The Corpse. Chances are your theater didn't get them, or just threw them out. After all - they're only comics.

Comic books need to get out of the comic books store. I need to buy my Comics by MAIL.

Hell man, comics need to get out of the pamphlet ghetto. Most of the local library branches stopped carrying comics, and will not accept donations of them (I was looking to unload a long box of shit) because of the hassle of space and organizing each and every one of those flimsy shits. :lol

 

[Flynn]

Give us more Scrooge McDuck comics...

It's amazing when Lucas, Spielberg, and all sorts of other interesting folks keep crediting the Donald and Scrooge McDuck comics for their childhood inspiration.

(I still love the story of how a ship salvage guy took an idea from an old Scrooge comic and used it to successfully raise parts of a sunken ship.)

Oh, question here, regardings children's comics... what are the sales of the various Archie comics and "digests"? I thought I remember hearing that they were very good, which isn't surprising... given that they are the only "true" children's comic still being produced.

They sell poorly, the reason being that you need many titles available to have an impact on a market. Could you imagine if there were only one or two children's books available at bookstores or librarys. People would just assume that books weren't for kids and wait until they were older to look into reading.

The same goes for comics in my mind. There just isn't the multitude of kids and childrens titles available as there were during the golden age -- not even close. And that's part of why comics are dying. People don't grow up reading comics anymore. The only people left reading comics are the last generation that grew up reading them -- and they're all entering mid adulthood.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

The biggest thing about Scrooge Comics and the plight of other children's comics.

Kids in the 40s, 50s, and 60s read books.

Kids today watch TV and Live Journal.

You ain't gettin' no kid to pick up no book n'less he at school.

 

[DDayton]

They sell poorly, the reason being that you need many titles available to have an impact on a market. Could you imagine if there were only one or two children's books available at bookstores or librarys. People would just assume that books weren't for kids and wait until they were older to look into reading.

The same goes for comics in my mind. There just isn't the multitude of kids and childrens titles available as there were during the golden age -- not even close. And that's part of why comics are dying. People don't grow up reading comics anymore. The only people left reading comics are the last generation that grew up reading them -- and they're all entering mid adulthood.

Again, what are the actual sales of the Archie comics line? I thought I remember hearing that they were fairly decent, all things considered. I'm curious because that's all the "children's market" is these days... and those things have never died. They just keep going on and on and on and on...

I don't think it's a matter of kids not being interested in comics as much as comics moving into this weird quasi-"MATOOR" stage, actively dumping the elements which helped them thrive when the did sell to kids...

Edited Content: Hmm... Diamond Comics shows the Archie comics group as having about .4% of the monthly comic dollar share... someone could try to extrapolate that and determine what the actual sales are. They are fairly close to Bongo comics -- which doesn't sound like a good thing.

Edit 2: Now I'm coming across vague references claiming that the Archie comic group is the third largest publisher of comics in the USA...

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Again, what are the actual sales of the Archie comics line? I thought I remember hearing that they were fairly decent, all things considered. I'm curious because that's all the "children's market" is these days... and those things have never died. They just keep going on and on and on and on...

I don't think it's a matter of kids not being interested in comics as much as comics moving into this weird quasi-"MATOOR" stage, actively dumping the elements which helped them thrive when the did sell to kids...

Edited Content: Hmm... Diamond Comics shows the Archie comics group as having about .4% of the monthly comic dollar share... someone could try to extrapolate that and determine what the actual sales are. They are fairly close to Bongo comics -- which doesn't sound like a good thing.

Edit 2: Now I'm coming across vague references claiming that the Archie comic group is the third largest publisher of comics in the USA...

Not sure about Archie, but I do know that Archie's Sonic comics sell very well, and are probably Archie's biggest seller.

 

[DDayton]

According to one of the various Archie Comics websites, total sales of all their comics are about 850,000 a month, over about 10 or so titles.

 

[Flynn]

According to one of the various Archie Comics websites, total sales of all their comics are about 850,000 a month, over about 10 or so titles.

I stand corrected. Those are pretty good numbers.

EDIT:

I wonder, though, if they're counting returnable stuff that they ship to grocery stores, magazine stands, etc.

 

[DDayton]

I stand corrected. Those are pretty good numbers.

EDIT:

I wonder, though, if they're counting returnable stuff that they ship to grocery stores, magazine stands, etc.

I was assuming it was actual sales... other stuff I've read implies that Archie comics sell constantly... "old titles" will be purchased, slowly. The don't seem to have returns/etc. to any meaningful degree.

Again, stupid question -- is 80,000 sales a month above average, average, or seriously below average for "normal comics"? I have no clue.

 

[Flynn]

I was assuming it was actual sales... other stuff I've read implies that Archie comics sell constantly... "old titles" will be purchased, slowly. The don't seem to have returns/etc. to any meaningful degree.

Again, stupid question -- is 80,000 sales a month above average, average, or seriously below average for "normal comics"? I have no clue.

80,000 is good for comics. See the links I posted above to see some average sales numbers -- they're not that big.

 

[DDayton]

Ok. Someone help me on this -- is someone currently printing the Disney Duck comics again in the USA? Gladstone did drop the license back around 2002 or so... but I keep hearing SOMEONE say that the new comics are being sold. If they are... someone needs to get those things in the hands of buyers. Heck, splice them all into the "digest format" and sell 'em in grocery stores... it works for Archie.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Ok. Someone help me on this -- is someone currently printing the Disney Duck comics again in the USA? Gladstone did drop the license back around 2002 or so... but I keep hearing SOMEONE say that the new comics are being sold. If they are... someone needs to get those things in the hands of buyers. Heck, splice them all into the "digest format" and sell 'em in grocery stores... it works for Archie.

That's a good idea, actually. I don't believe I can recall any of the Duck comics being distributed in 'cheap' digest format.

I'd buy 'em in a heartbeat.