Part 1
Honda: To this day PlayStation have brought changes in gaming for each generation. First it brought real 3D graphics then PS2 reached the entrance to virtual reality. Then, what of gaming will PS3 change?
Kutaragi: PS3 is what we've managed to reach as the product that was thought as the goal when we founded SCEI. We don't manufacture PlayStation to play games, we've been running the company to exploit wonderful power of computers for entertainment. In the first generation we put a 3D graphics chip, in PS2 we put Emotion Engine. PS3 is not a game-oriented architecture. It's not a computer for children. In terms of a computer for entertainment that is our goal, it's like PS1 and PS2 existed just for PS3.
Honda: "Using computer power for fun", "want to create a computer designed for entertainment", these were the words often heard when the first PlayStation emerged. So, the dream you had in those days has materialized this time.
Kutaragi: PC have been a computer as a tool so far. It's only a port of various philosophies from mainframe to PC. Therefore the mainstream moved from desktop PC to note PC when certain performance was reached. In PC of today, both hardware and OS are made for business tools.
However, a computer as a business tool got matured, and then they went to the direction such as Media Center PC etc. that have media playback capability. It only imitates what consumer appliances have been doing already and is not built for entertainment.
In contrast to that, PS3 is a computer created to realize entertainment. Entertainment includes not only games, but also various factors, PS3 is a computer that has become to be able to offer functions useful for all of them.
So, with what kind of approach can we realize it? In the first PlayStation, we had thought how we could bring what SGI did (3D graphics) into homes as entertainment. Likewise, things which are impossible with human power, things only solvable with supercomputers, technology to analyze invisible places in the world - the approach in PS3 is to bring them into homes to use them for entertainment.
Because of it, we allied ourselves with IBM that knows supercomputers, co-developed CELL with Toshiba in the 3-company alliance, and created the new GPU with nVIDIA. Especially we could sympathize with nVIDIA very much, and I and Jen-Hsun (nVIDIA CEO) drew the future roadmap. The entrance of this roadmap is RSX. Those who aren't in the know seem to think it's an off-the-shelf PC GPU, but in reality, they are totally different in their architectures. Including Dr. Kirk (nVIDIA architect), all people at nVIDIA are visionaries actually. Also in that regard we sympathize with each other, and we are in talks to do new thing in the future. OTOH, nVIDIA Shader can exploit past assets as it has compatibility with various shading programs in the PC world.
Honda: After you resigned as Sony corporate VP, it looks you've regained your former attitude, like chasing dreams.
Kutaragi: As a corporate VP you are always required to judge various products you are in charge of. But now, I can concentrate only on PlayStation and can elaborate it. When you have more chances to see the products you'll find our elaboration in many places.
Honda: You used to talk about the concept of CELL or PS3 with grid computing as one of analogies. Since then it's been disclosed what kind of processor CELL actually is. How does the computing model of CELL that has networking functions by itself translate into a game console in future?
Kutaragi: In the next spring, CELL will start to enter homes as the form of PS3. Thought in it there are 7 SPEs, it may be seen only as one hardware from users. But since PS3 has Gigabit Ethernet from day one, you can connect CELLs right away at 1Gbps when you have more CELLs in your home. It can be a home server, or more PS3s, in various styles CELLs in home can connect with one another via network. With 100Mbps bandwidth, they can be connected even through internet.
Honda: Is PS3 itself rigged with such mechanism for CELL computing?
Kutaragi: Of course it'll be implemented in the Cell OS that's running on PS3. As you know CELL has a secure execution layer in the processor level, it has high security even in the case where they are connected through a network. The world where power of CELL connecting with one another through a network - we prepare it properly and it's implemented in PS3.
Honda: Yesterday I interviewed with Robbie Bach of Microsoft. About the difference between XBOX360 and PS3, he said XBOX360 is oriented to integer calculation and SMP which are natural progression in computing power as a general computer, and PS3 is an approach specifically meant for augmenting floating point calcuation. It's the viewpoint like while they respect the choice of PS3, for Microsoft also as a software vendor, XBOX 360 is more friendly.
Kutaragi: I can understand the approach where computing performance is augmented by putting several general-purpose processor cores. But what you can improve by higher integer performance is only general infomation processing application. It has more power as a general-purpose computer, but it doesn't change the level of entertainment. In contrast CELL is designed from day one to generate virtual things and phenomena in a computer.
(I omit Honda's comment about supercomputer and entertainment here)
Honda: What kind of power does Entertainment Computer need?
Kutaragi: The approach where improving computing performance as much as possible and combining GPU with it is just connect a PC with a TV and redesign packaging of a case, that is not new as a concept. XBOX was such a game console in its first generation too. But we want to create the future which was previously impossible by expanding computer entertainment more than ever before. At the press conference we showed the demo of ducks driven by physics simulation, it's just about generating a virtual world in PS3.
For us it's very acceptable that Microsoft invests in this area. But just upping output resolution of a conventional game console and improving graphics power don't expand the world of game consoles as of today.
This is only XBOX 1.5 rather than a next-generation XBOX. Rather than replacing what existent game console vendors have been doing with high-performance hardware, I want them to find a totally new field by their own originality. If they do so, we can expand the world of computer entertainment together.
Honda: Though this is very rough point of view, it looks functions and performance required for home appliances are thoroughly analysed for target usage and are implemented very efficiently in silicon as PS3. OTOH XBOX360 looks like a very general and flexible hardware well expected from a PC software vendor.
Kutaragi: It's the culture of SCEI that sticking onto details we implement them one by one. Every part has elaboration and it's reflected in detailed parts of system architectures.
For example,
RSX is not a variant of nVIDIA's PC chip. CELL and RSX have close relationship and both can access the main memory and the VRAM transparently. CELL can access the VRAM just like the main memory, and RSX can use the main memory as a frame buffer. They are just separated for the main usage, and do not really have distinction.
This architecture was designed to kill wasteful data copy and calculation between CELL and RSX. RSX can directly refer to a result simulated by CELL and CELL can directly refer to a shape of a thing RSX added shading to (note: CELL and RSX have independent bidirectional bandwidths so there is no contention). It's impossible for shared memory no matter how beautiful rendering and complicated shading shared memory can do.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0521/e305.htm
Part 2
Honda: It seems PS3 is designed and has the spec that can naturally exist in home as an AV appliance.
Kutaragi: It's of course. Because PlayStation is not a game console. I have never remarked that PlayStation is a game console. These days a display becomes fixed-pixel so there'll be more displays for home use that can output full HD in the real resolution. Thus it's natural move that it has 2 1080p outputs.
Honda: In the aspect of AV entertainment, what function does CELL computing that centers at PS3 offer us?
Kutaragi: Imagine we can realize the world where can easily use supercomputing power in home. CELL can realize it. PS3 and other CELL-embedded machines have the base for CELL computing through network. What's possible with a supercomputer?
For example, we internally call it as "ripening", if you lay a content in a storage server on a network, CELL ripens it when it's not used and improves its quality. For example it can ripen an SD resolution movie to up-convert to an HD movie with more details. Those contents are stored in "CELL Storage" that is a network stroage with Gigabit Ethernet and RAID. We have many plans but will certainly offer CELL Storage.
(Honda's comment: the same kind of upconverting a movie was demonstrated by Intel but they explained it requires a future many-core CPU. CELL will be able to do it and other wonderful things on a home network)
Kutaragi: In future CELL home server will be in home and it'll automatically maintain contents in CELL Storage. With the security function in CELL, you can rip a copyrighted material such as DVD and put it on a storage then can ripen it to be more beautiful.
Honda: When the era of digital contents comes in the mainstream, a home network will be filled with digital data. For example you can't sort digital camera pictures by yourself because they are too many. TV programs and music are like that too. How to maintain directories for those contents and how to search them may be solved by image analysis. Moreover, the part that visualizes results for analysis and search can be navigated plainly with 3D graphics in PS3 as a frontend.
Kutaragi: Don't worry, as it's what I want most, we'll start the development soon after we release PS3. Technologies for information analysis of movie, still picture, and sound have a tremendous number of methods including research projects not well known. With supercomputer power we can apply them in home.
Honda: As a control center of digital media, it's interesting that PS3 has an SD card slot as a default feature. It's a feature not seen in Sony (not SCEI) products, does this represent the open attitude in such an area as premium contents media distribution?
Kutaragi: Indeed there is an image that for Sony products only memory stick and ATRAC are allowed and outside technologies are ignored. But SCEI, and PlayStation, continue to use actively the world standard and what engineers in the world appreciate as the best things. So memory stick and SD card are the same. They are treated as equivalents and we won't go to our own way.
In terms of codec, as CELL has power to do realtime transcoding singlehandedly, it'll be non-significant in which format a movie is stored in a storage. You can use the best technology available in the time.
Honda: Though it must be difficult for you to tell the very price of PS3, will PS3 take the same depreciation model as the one of PS2? For instance PSP was cheaper than most expected.
Kutaragi: PSP was evaluated by many people as inexpensive, but still 24,900 Yen. Its cost model can have a feasible cash flow by the higher in-house development ratio and other factors.
The same thing can be said for PS3, but a far more number of PS3 will be sold if you compare it with PSP. But as I mentioned before PS3 has no consciousness as a game console. It was our goal that we wanted to sell a computer for entertainment with added values.
Probably in this generation, PS3, will be able to be sold even for 200,000 Yen for those who want the power. Those who want it won't judge by the price. Of course if it's the case not many people can enjoy it, but some people may think it's expensive if they think game consoles as the standard. However, PS3 is built as a product overwhelmingly wanted. Car and TV are like that. You can't help wanting it. Even we, who developed it, want it. We created such a product.
(Honda's comment: To complement Kutaragi, apparently SCE told partners that PS3 would be sold under 40,000 Yen. So far PS1 & PS2 were launched at 39,800 Yen so they are not very expensive. But, as PSP was launched at the "final price" that contains no further pricecut, PS3 may launch at 39,800 as the final price without pricecut in the near future. Anyway PS3 will be launched at a price well in the range of a common sense)
Honda: For the last question, can you show me concrete examples of the application of CELL to home appliances?
Kutaragi: In addition to the aspects I mentioned earlier such as image quality and searching digital media, automatically analysing still pictures to optimize it for printing, or when you have more CELLs in home, image quality in TV may be improved somewhere along the line unknown by a user.
Also, CELL Storage is important. Ordinary NAS is enough to store contents simply, but it's not that interesting. We make it analyze movies and sounds, and detect what they are, then add semantics. Though automatically adding semantics to things originally without metadata requires huge computing power, CELL will be the key to the problem.
