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[Tommie Hu$tle]

This is a question I have wondered for a while. Well from my POV unlike Facism, Communism, and Nazism where were external threats to Democracy. Terrorism seems to make Democratic populations change themselves (i.e. willingly give up rights).

Am I just being pollyannaish?

 

[DarienA]

...yes your are IMO.

During it's height Communism was the biggest threat democracy had ever faced as well. It caused people to accuse each other of it... witch hunts, etc... It caused nations to almost launch WWIII.

This to will pass.

 

[Blatz]

I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat. Some would argue that it has already crippled democracy.

Now Terrorism may be Capitalism's biggest threat...

 

[Instigator]

I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat. Some would argue that it has already crippled democracy.

Now Terrorism may be Capitalism's biggest threat...

What he said.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat. Some would argue that it has already crippled democracy.

Now Terrorism may be Capitalism's biggest threat...

That's interesting and I suspect that I could go with that. But, can Capitalism exist without Democracy?

 

[Instigator]

That's interesting and I suspect that I could go with that. But, can Capitalism exist without Democracy?

It already does in many countries.

 

[pollo]

China?

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

It already does in many countries.

Well I suspect captialism can co-exist with any form of govenment. But back to my original question. I think that terrorism is a bigger threat than the others because the way it works. The fear of terrorism could turn a democracy into a police state by the will of the people.

 

[Instigator]

China?

Singapore is a better example. So was and still is HK.

 

[ToyMachine228]

China?

China is the biggest threat to our position as economic leader. Action by them on Taiwan could also bring about military conflict between the US and China, but that's a different story.

 

[Guileless]

--Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War.
--During World War I, under the Espionage and Sedition Acts, Woodrow Wilson detained citizens without trial and made it a crime to slander the United States.
--Roosevelt had saboteurs convicted and executed through military tribunals and sent thousands of Japanese Americans to relocation camps.

I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat.

And why is that?

 

[ManDudeChild]

--Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War.
--During World War I, under the Espionage and Sedition Acts, Woodrow Wilson detained citizens without trial and made it a crime to slander the United States.
--Roosevelt had saboteurs convicted and executed through military tribunals and sent thousands of Japanese Americans to relocation camps.


And why is that?

Your tag is so fitting.

 

[Zaptruder]

And why is that?

Because, capitalism and human nature in their purest form will have the practical result of all the money been siphoned to the richest, leaving those not at the top, destitute, poor, and slave like. Due to their economic situation, they'd also not be able to attain a proper education, thus less able to make sound decisions and have strong opinions on the direction of the country, are more easily manipulated as such, in the sense even though they're in a pressing situation, even though their human nature would want to rebel against the oppression, they may not be capable of doing so, due to reduced ability from lack of education.

Those that are rich, tend to be rich as a result of their ability to hold onto money. When pitted against everyone else, over time, they'll hold onto money with increased effectiveness, due to the increase in wealth vs the ability to spend that wealth.
Moreover, it can be passed down through generations, through a strong education as well as the material foundation (i.e. the inheritance) to practice that education.

Of course, this is exaggerated, the most extreme of circumstances... but in truth, this is exactly what is happening at this point in america and many other nations, although slowly, it is happening surely. There's still enough time to balance things such that you don't end up at either extreme (which has never proven a good thing).

 

[Guileless]

I understand the theory Zaprtuder, but I don't see the practical problems. This country, whatever its imperfections are, is the most true meritocracy in history. That's why immigrants have come here since its founding. Millions of people think coming here with literally nothing offers them a better opportunity to succed than staying in their own countries, most of which are more socialist. That evidence is more compelling to me than 100 books worth of theory.

As for human nature, I think more problems arise from vesting the power to redistribute wealth in a small elite than from having a capitalist society. Inevitably, some people will be more equal than others.

ManDudeChild, you must think that my tag reads "Offers relevant historical perspective."

 

[Phoenix]

I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat. Some would argue that it has already crippled democracy.

Now Terrorism may be Capitalism's biggest threat...

Quoted for truth, justice, and the American way...

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Is terrorism the biggest threat democracy has faced.

No, George W. Bush is.

 

[Phoenix]

I understand the theory Zaprtuder, but I don't see the practical problems. This country, whatever its imperfections are, is the most true meritocracy in history.

That is a load. This country is far from a meritocracy and is nearly the opposite. Those with wealth control this country, not those of the highest intellect or merit. That much is both obvious and easily provable.

That's why immigrants have come here since its founding. Millions of people think coming here with literally nothing offers them a better opportunity to succed than staying in their own countries, most of which are more socialist. That evidence is more compelling to me than 100 books worth of theory.

First, there are plenty of people migrating here from Mexico, Canada, and parts of Western Europe that are far from socialist. Our largest immigrant population comes from countries that aren't socialist.

As for human nature, I think more problems arise from vesting the power to redistribute wealth in a small elite than from having a capitalist society. Inevitably, some people will be more equal than others.

Sounds like capitalism to me

 

[Guileless]

I am using the word "meritocracy" in the sense of a system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievment, not who controls the country. And while this country is not and never will be a perfect meritocracy, it is the most advanced one in the world. This system is based on equality of opportunity, not equality of result as in socialist countries.

The bulk of our immigrants come from Latin America and South Asia. While improving (as they adopt evil capitalist policies), those areas still rank low as liberal economies. That's why people leave and come here for more opportunity that comes from comparitively low taxes, a better quality legal system, access to sound money, and fair regulation of business. Including Mexico.

 

[Phoenix]

I am using the word "meritocracy" in the sense of a system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievment, not who controls the country. And while this country is not and never will be a perfect meritocracy, it is the most advanced one in the world. This system is based on equality of opportunity, not equality of result as in socialist countries.

I won't take that one at face value. While the US does a lot of things right, I'd be interested in you showing how its doing 'advancement based on individual ability' better than Japan, Germany, France, Britain, Russia, Canada, India, etc.

The bulk of our immigrants come from Latin America and South Asia. While improving (as they adopt evil capitalist policies), those areas still rank low as liberal economies. That's why people leave and come here for more opportunity...

A lot of people from Cuba and Haiti (for example) come to America because their ships can't cross the ocran to get to western Europe. Many people immigrate from eastern Europe to western Europe because of geographic proximity as well. Determining the intentions of immigrants is very difficult because they are all leaving their various countries for various reasons.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

The bulk of our current immigrants come from Latin America and South Asia. While improving (as they adopt evil capitalist policies), those areas still rank low as liberal economies. That's why people leave and come here for more opportunity that comes from comparitively low taxes, a better quality legal system, access to sound money, and fair regulation of business. Including Mexico.

Most of our Immigrants came from Europe.

 

[ronito]

I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat. Some would argue that it has already crippled democracy.

Now Terrorism may be Capitalism's biggest threat...

Quoted yet again, because it bears repeating.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I think religious Fundamentalism in general -- Muslim, Christian et al -- is the biggest threat democracy faces.

Then again, I'm not entirely sold on democracy -- at least not our faux-capitalistic abuse of it.

 

[Blatz]

Originally Posted by Blatz: I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat. Some would argue that it has already crippled democracy.

Now Terrorism may be Capitalism's biggest threat...

And why is that?

Because Capitalism has allowed Corporations to undermine the rights of the people the Democratic government is supposed to protect. This practice began long before either any of us were born...J.P. Morgan comes to mind (but he probably wasn't the first).

Anytime business puts profits over the liberty of the individual, Democracy has failed.

 

[King Jippo]

I think Capitalism is Democracy's biggest threat. Some would argue that it has already crippled democracy.

YEAH!! Down with 99 cent McDonalds hamburgers!! Starbucks + Amoco = teh DeVall!!!

The bums lost Mr. Lebowsky. I suggest you do what your parents did...GET A JOB!

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Because Capitalism has allowed Corporations to undermine the rights of the people the Democratic government is supposed to protect. This practice began long before either any of us were born...J.P. Morgan comes to mind (but he probably wasn't the first).

Anytime business puts profits over the liberty of the individual, Democracy has failed.

But haven't wealth people underminded the laws since the concept of currency?

 

[lexy]

Because Capitalism has allowed Corporations to undermine the rights of the people the Democratic government is supposed to protect. This practice began long before either any of us were born...J.P. Morgan comes to mind (but he probably wasn't the first).

Anytime business puts profits over the liberty of the individual, Democracy has failed.

Oh boy, here we go.

 

[Guileless]

Because Capitalism has allowed Corporations to undermine the rights of the people the Democratic government is supposed to protect.

Yes I know what you think but what are the reasons? And what's the alternative?

Anytime business puts profits over the liberty of the individual, Democracy has failed.

lol is this some kind of self-parody? I can refer you to a commune in Oklahoma, I have a friend who really likes it there. Grows organic produce and lives in a tent year round. They probably won't get Xbox 360s at launch there though. You'd probably get more out of reading Walden than playing PGR3 anyway.

Phoenix-- the consensus among sociologists is that the US does a better job of integrating immigrants than Western Europe. Obviously there are many factors for why people undertake a momentous decision such as whether and where to immigrate, and I'm just speaking in general terms. My point is that there is much more opporunity here than a country that still retains statist trappings and all the bureacracy and corruption that comes with that.

Based on history, I would say those side effects of a centrally planned economy are unavoidable. But hey, it's fun to bitch about capitalism while living in the richest and most prosperous country in history. Don't any of you appreciate the irony?

 

[argon]

Capitalism is Democracy.

Now Terrorism may be Capitalism's biggest threat...

Fixed.

 

[maharg]

Since when are the only alternatives a centrally planned dictatorship or a capitalistic democracy? Capitalism existed long before democracy resurged in the west post-greece. Centrally planned economies are a 20th century creation.

At any rate, capitalism is, at it's most fundamental level, opposed to the concepts of modern democracy. Democracy gives each individual one vote and thus an equal share in governance. Capitalism gives an individual a vote proportional to their wealth, which leaves them with an extremely unequal share in governance.

To suggest they go perfectly well together is to assume that money plays no role in politics. If ever there has been a nation where this was more obviously not the case, it is the United States.

(btw, I am not making a value judgement here -- I believe the balance the above situation creates can be a good thing. But democracy certainly is not equal to capitalism, and neither is dependent on the other for existence)

 

[Hitokage]

Capitalism is democratic only as long as the market has controlling power over resource distribution and artificial barriers to entry are kept to a minimum, otherwise it can slip into fragmented command economies when oligopolies or worse unnatural monopolies form... and this process is in the suppliers best interest, even if not the consumers. In other words, capitalism, like government, fundamentally needs checks and balances.

At any rate, desperation and instability have been and will continue to be democracy's worst enemy.

 

[Phoenix]

Based on history, I would say those side effects of a centrally planned economy are unavoidable. But hey, it's fun to bitch about capitalism while living in the richest and most prosperous country in history. Don't any of you appreciate the irony?

History called, the Roman empire wants a word with you

 

[Guileless]

The Roman Empire was sprawling, powerful, and rich but the lives of the vast majority of its subjects were of the nasty, brutish, and short variety. They also didn't have any real way to change that other than seizing treasure in military campaigns. Happily we have things much better.

I'm repeating myself (but apparently it's neccesary,) but those of us living in the West right now have a higher quality of life than 99.9% of every human who has ever lived, going back to when we came down from the trees. It continually amazes me why so many of you feel the need to solemnly proclaim how terrible things are or will be getting soon. Relax and enjoy your hopefully long and happy lives.

Edit: I'm about to endure the terrible wages of capitalism as I sit in my climate controlled house in a recliner while I play some anonymous guy in NCAA Football via our nation's communications infrastructure on a 27'' Sony WEGA flat screen, using the university I graduated from almost totally for free based on my SAT score. I don't know about you but for me it beats subsistence farming. Amazing what the optimal allocation of capital can do isn't it?

 

[ronito]

Please, please, kids, stop fighting.
Maybe Guileless right about America being the land of opportunity,
and maybe everyone else got a point about the machinery of capitalism
being oiled with the blood of the workers.

 

[lexy]

Please, please, kids, stop fighting.
Maybe Guileless right about America being the land of opportunity,
and maybe everyone else got a point about the machinery of capitalism
being oiled with the blood of the workers.

Hahaha,

Also, some of you seem to be under the impression that America is a democracy. That's mildly amusing.

 

[Gattsu25]

No. Politicians.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

They also didn't have any real way to change that other than seizing treasure in military campaigns. Happily we have things much better.

*knock, knock*

Guileless: Who is it?

Iraq: Iraq can I come in?

Guileless: No, you'll fuck up my whole arguement.

Iraq: *mumbling* Ok, I'll come back later.

 

[ronito]

No. Politicians.

You know this bears repeating as well. Professional politicians and lobbyists are probably a bigger threat to democracy than capitalism. Of course the lobbyists are driven by capitalism.

 

[Phoenix]

The Roman Empire was sprawling, powerful, and rich but the lives of the vast majority of its subjects were of the nasty, brutish, and short variety.

while living in the richest and most prosperous country in history. Don't any of you appreciate the irony?

The United States is simply not the richest and most properous country in history. There have been far more prosperous countries in history than the US.

I'm repeating myself (but apparently it's neccesary,) but those of us living in the West right now have a higher quality of life than 99.9% of every human who has ever lived, going back to when we came down from the trees. It continually amazes me why so many of you feel the need to solemnly proclaim how terrible things are or will be getting soon. Relax and enjoy your hopefully long and happy lives.

Sorry, but this is just a decoy argument. The United States is not "the West" there are many other western countries which enjoy the same and in some cases arguably better quality of life than ourselves (I'm sure Canadians will jump in soon about their free health care system). Just because things are better here than they are elsewhere does not mean that its the best here.

I'm about to endure the terrible wages of capitalism as I sit in my climate controlled house in a recliner while I play some anonymous guy in NCAA Football via our nation's communications infrastructure on a 27'' Sony WEGA flat screen, using the university I graduated from almost totally for free based on my SAT score. I don't know about you but for me it beats subsistence farming. Amazing what the optimal allocation of capital can do isn't it?

Right, so since you don't see any negative impact on your life from capitalism (because your eyes are apparently closed to it), its all good - capitalism is all good. Never mind the fact that money driven lobbyists and special interests are at this very moment erroding away your rights - for profit, that people are building products that endanger you - for profit, that your life now revolves around the acquisition of wealth and paying off debt (unless you are independently wealthy or mooching off your parents), that our nations communications infrastructure is currently dropping to 16th in the world because of companies after profit, etc.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I'm repeating myself (but apparently it's neccesary,) but those of us living in the West right now have a higher quality of life than 99.9% of every human who has ever lived, going back to when we came down from the trees.

Guileless: Who is it? God, I hope it isn't Iraq again

Haiti: Hey it's me, your friend Haiti can I come in?

Guileless: No, you'll fuck up my whole arguement.

Haiti: *mumbling* Ok, I'll come back later.

 

[HokieJoe]

Those with wealth control this country, not those of the highest intellect or merit. That much is both obvious and easily provable.

:lol

Name me a country where that ISN'T the case.

In communist societies, it doesn't necessarily follow that the richest have the power; but the powerful sure as hell control the wealth. Socialist countries aren't too far from that. "Highest intellect", or who scores the highest on an IQ test is not the only variable in determining merit. As well, IQ tests are not the ONLY measure of intelligence. There are different kinds of intelligence.

No human is perfect and no economic system is perfect. That said, I far prefer capatilism over that goofy ass egalitarian crap.

 

[HokieJoe]

But haven't wealth people underminded the laws since the concept of currency?

Nail... hammer... head.

 

[Phoenix]

:lol

Name me a country where that ISN'T the case.

Your comments is way from left field and out of context...

 

[HokieJoe]

I thought my comments were quite salient to the dialogue between you Guileless. As well, my comments were directed at the larger notion that capitalism is the biggest threat to democracy. I'm not sure if you're trying to make that point or not.

 

[Phoenix]

I thought my comments were quite salient to the dialogue between you Guileless. As well, my comments were directed at the larger notion that capitalism is the biggest threat to democracy. I'm not sure if you're trying to make that point or not.

here is the definition of meritocracy

Meritocracy is a system of government based on rule by ability (merit) rather than by wealth or social position.

As such a system based on wealth and/or social position would be the opposite of a meritocracy. As such your comment is out in left field.... near the wall

 

[Deku]

Capitalism is by itself not incompatible with most governments, but it has proven more compatible with open societies than with state run economies. Capitalism is also not quite the same as the harnessing of the market economy with a social twist ie: socialism. The only real problem with socialism is the problem Europe is facing right now. Weak economies and a financial disaster waiting to happen due to generational accounting.

To answer the question, Terrorism is the great threat not to Democracy but to the free and open 'developed' states of the world. It's not one enemy like the soviets, and it is quite capable of fragmenting public opinion and paralyzing the governments from acting.

I won't take that one at face value. While the US does a lot of things right, I'd be interested in you showing how its doing 'advancement based on individual ability' better than Japan, Germany, France, Britain, Russia, Canada, India, etc.

In Japan your highschool test scores and college test scores decide how high you go in life. There's some slack of course, as someone from a medium ranking university could still do quite some well, but by an large, where you studied matter more than your actual on the job performance. There's a very distinct class in Japan called 'Elites' エリト and these are highly educated graduates from the top schools. It is still the most hierarchical country in all of G8. It actually matters if you're a bastard child or a pure Japanese, and they make you tell them when you register to live in district.

In France, your pedigree and social standing matter more than your ability. Most people in French management have very high standing in society based on their family name.

Canada is just like the US, if a Canadian tells you it's not, he's lying and being nationalistic.

Britiain still has shades of its old class system at play.

India = caste system.

As for human nature, I think more problems arise from vesting the power to redistribute wealth in a small elite than from having a capitalist society. Inevitably, some people will be more equal than others.

All western democracies are welfare states of some form. The US is the one furtherest from that, but even it has a strong centralized government collecting taxes and redistributing wealth.

Edit: If I can be an ass for a moment, most of the responses so far are from being trying to be a smartass and it's too bad because it tends to bring out the worse in people. This could have been really be an interesting topic without the left wing self-hate.

 

[Hitokage]

I've heard the term thrown around a lot, but equality of opportunity is being able to get quality schooling and land jobs due to their own ability, rather than socioeconomic status which plays subtly yet so prominently in recent American society. Education is opportunity, not a result.


[Now that I think about it, I'm not really sure if I have a reason for saying this. Oh well, carry on...]

 

[Guileless]

Phoenix you're veering off into Fight For Freeform territory here. Whay is your point?
I didn't say capitialism is perfect, I said it's the best system we know of and it's exponentially better than anything else humans have tried.

If the original poster said something like "capitalism, while certainly not without its merits, has some rough edges that should be addressed through sound public policy" then I would never have posted anything because that's a reasonable statement. Instead, he said that "capitalism is the biggest threat to democracy" and didn't offer a single rationale for such a bold assertion.

The US has had the highest GDP in the history of the world every year since the end of WW2 by a wide margin. Ergo, it is the most prosperous country in history by my definition of prosperous. You may have a more esoteric definition for prosperity, but that is mine.
______________________

Iraq and Haiti? Is the US required to invade countries to steal gold and carry off livestock to create wealth in a zero-sum game or does it generate massive amounts of wealth in a post-industrial service economy? Are you seriously applying my comment about how ancient Rome financed its standing army to the US in 2005? Hmmm I could either invest some money in a mutual fund or plunder Haiti, I wonder what we do here in 2005 to generate wealth?

 

[Shiggy]

No, George W. Bush is.

I agree, this was what I thought first.

 

[Deku]

After the fall of communism, the world lost an alternate economic model or rather it was proven an economy run by the state is unsustainable. And as much as people want to ignore it, China's success is because of capitalism.

Capitalism is a very flexible economic system, it can exist under autocracies, a one party state, as well as under democracies and socialist governments. That's a broad spectrum of left to right, but with varying degrees of effectiveness. But the conventional wisdom is, more open societies tend to have strongest capitalistic economies because capitalism in part relies on free movement of labour, something a restrictive state cannot provide.

What capitalism needs to thrive and drive an economy is a stable government, law and order, and trade.

Capitalism failings is that it does not require intellectual freedom, freedom of speech and many of the liberties people in the west take for granted to work. Singapore is proof of this and China will soon be proof of this as well, although, an average Singaporean is still much freer than an average Chinese. In this sense Capitalism as an economic model is largely detached from all political ideologies. It only comes into contact with political ideology at one particular point and that is how much freedom it has to operate under the economy which is the usual regulation/government involvement in the economy vs. a hands off approach.

 

[Hitokage]

Capitalism is also unsustainable as defined. Human nature being as it is, suppliers will conspire against consumers and leverage control of the market away from them, placing themselves in control of the economy because that is what is in their best interest. The result is no different from a command economy, except commanding economic power rests in a nongovernmental body. Through regulation and socialist reforms, capitalist nations have formed systems that aren't necessarily independent of government, but attempt to place just enough control so that the balance of power doesn't tip towards popular oppression or self destruction. It's a balancing act that needs constant attention, but so are all forms of power in a sustainably free society.

In the end, it is no more wise to "trust" economic power to economic leaders than it is to "trust" political power with political leaders.