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John Titor was right. Bush allowed to hold American citizens without charges or trial

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Tenguman

Member
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040628/D83G2UC81.html

And the sad thing is, these powers carry over to future presidents. So if John Kerry wins, he'll have the same powers :/

WTF is going on with America


Bush Can Hold Citizens Without Charges
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Jun 28, 10:46 AM (ET)

By ANNE GEARAN

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court ruled narrowly Monday that Congress gave President Bush the power to hold an American citizen without charges or trial, but said the detainee can challenge his treatment in court.

The 6-3 ruling sided with the administration on an important legal point raised in the war on terrorism. At the same time, it left unanswered other hard questions raised by the case of Yaser Esam Hamdi, who has been detained more than two years and who was only recently allowed to see a lawyer.

The administration had fought any suggestion that Hamdi or another U.S.-born terrorism suspect could go to court, saying that such a legal fight posed a threat to the president's power to wage war as he sees fit.

"We have no reason to doubt that courts, faced with these sensitive matters, will pay proper heed both to the matters of national security that might arise in an individual case and to the constitutional limitations safeguarding essential liberties that remain vibrant even in times of security concerns," Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote for the court.

O'Connor said that Hamdi "unquestionably has the right to access to counsel."

The court threw out a lower court ruling that supported the government's position fully, and Hamdi's case now returns to a lower court.

The careful opinion seemed deferential to the White House, but did not give the president everything he wanted.

The ruling is the largest test so far of executive power in the post-Sept. 11 assault on terrorism.

The court has yet to rule in the similar case of American-born detainee Jose Padilla and in another case testing the legal rights of detainees held as enemy combatants at a U.S. military prison facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

O'Connor said the court has "made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."

She was joined by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and justices Stephen Breyer and Anthony Kennedy in her view that Congress had authorized detentions such as Hamdi's in what she called very limited circumstances.

Congress voted shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks to give the president significant authority to pursue terrorists, but Hamdi's lawyers said that authority did not extend to the indefinite detention of an American citizen without charges or trial.

Two other justices, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, would have gone further and declared Hamdi's detention improper. Still, they joined O'Connor and the others to say that Hamdi, and by extension others who may be in his position, are entitled to their day in court.

Hamdi and Padilla are in military custody at a Navy brig in South Carolina. They have been interrogated repeatedly without lawyers present.

The Bush administration contends that as "enemy combatants," the men are not entitled to the usual rights of prisoners of war set out in the Geneva Conventions. Enemy combatants are also outside the constitutional protections for ordinary criminal suspects, the government has claimed.

The administration argued that the president alone has authority to order their detention, and that courts have no business second-guessing that decision.

The case has additional resonance because of recent revelations that U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi prisoners and used harsh interrogation methods at a prison outside Baghdad. For some critics of the administration's security measures, the pictures of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison illustrated what might go wrong if the military and White House have unchecked authority over prisoners.

At oral arguments in the Padilla case in April, an administration lawyer assured the court that Americans abide by international treaties against torture, and that the president or the military would not allow even mild torture as a means to get information.


Someone should tell the Supreme Court TO READ THE FUCKING BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
 

human5892

Queen of Denmark
First Mad Cow, now this...John Titor really was a time-travellin' man!

On a more serious note, this ruling is pretty disturbing.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
So basically, you can be detained without even being charged, but now you can at least contest it.

Still fucking stupid. The administration is stepping all over "innocent until proven guilty," I'd imagine the founding fathers are spinning fast enough in their graves to power Vegas.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The administration argued that the president alone has authority to order their detention, and that courts have no business second-guessing that decision.
Checks and balances, you fucking assholes.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
However, it should be noted that they seem to be sticking to the formal mode of submitting a Writ of Hapeas Corpus... that is, although law enforcement may hold you in jail without charges under normal circumstances, you have the explicit right to contest it in court.

So... I dunno.
 

Tenguman

Member
Hitokage said:
However, it should be noted that they seem to be sticking to the formal mode of submitting a Writ of Hapeas Corpus... that is, although law enforcement may hold you in jail without charges under normal circumstances, you have the explicit right to contest it in court.
The only thing you can contest is if you're being mistreated. You can't contest being held without charges or trial.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
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And the laaaaaaand of the freeeeee!
 
I'm disappointed by Hamdi as well. I was hoping for a real rebuke against the Bush administration's drive towards an imperial, all powerful presidency (also visible in the torture memos). This is serious stuff.

But, really, couldn't the Hamdi case be solved by the Congress stepping up to the plate and revoking the blank check they handed GWB post-9/11? Just amend that resolution (the AUMF?) to say - 'oh yeah, and you can't hold American citizens without charges or a trial, because that's fuckin' bullshit. Everything else is still cool, though.' Time to write your Congressman for some democracy in action sort of stuff, I guess. Somehow, I don't think that even the most conservative lawmakers realized that they were authorizing eternal detentions of american citizens when they passed that resolution.

(PS, Hamdi can challenge his detention's legality, ie whether or not he is an enemy combatant, not just his treatment. Er, at least that's how I'm reading it....)
 

Tenguman

Member
Hitokage said:
BTW, citing John Titor is equally stupid. :p

John Titor is the uber time traveling man. And it's my right as a citizen of the USA to cite him whenever I want! ;)

Oh, and name is fixed (had a similar quote to yours, but then changed it to yours without updating the user name)
 

deadhorse32

Bad Art ™
Because democracy is noble, it is always endangered. Nobility, indeed, is always in danger. Democracy is perishable. I think the natural government for most people, given the uglier depths of human nature, is fascism. Fascism is more of a natural state than democracy. To assume blithely that we can export democracy into any country we choose can serve paradoxically to encourage more fascism at home and abroad.

-Norman Mailer
 
This is nothing new. Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus rights during the Civil War. I'm pretty sure all the Patriot Act is doing with this situation is making it easier to do so. Normally the nation needs to be in a crisis.

Fucking Patriot Act.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
United States Constitution said:
Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Using the basis of Invasion in this case is reaching, to make an understatement.
 

MetatronM

Unconfirmed Member
StrikerObi said:
This is nothing new. Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus rights during the Civil War. I'm pretty sure all the Patriot Act is doing with this situation is making it easier to do so. Normally the nation needs to be in a crisis.

Fucking Patriot Act.
Except Lincoln lost that Supreme Court case.
 
Actually, it sounds like the Bush administration dodged a huge bullet today. If Padilla had not been sidestepped by those crafty bastards on the Supreme Court, they likely would have ruled that his detention was flat out illegal, based on what they're saying in the Hamdi opinion. And even Hamdi cannot be held indefinitely.

Padilla will likely win when he brings his case properly. Jesus, even Scalia seems to think so - his dissent concludes that the government has to either charge Hamdi or get Congress to suspend Habeas.

So... if you're an American citizen nabbed in America for plotting terrorism, you can't be held indefinitely without a trial. Err... I think that's what's going on, anyway. Hard to tell for sure.
 

Tekky

Member
Milhouse31 said:
Rules are made to change....so i heard

Yeah, you know that rule about not killing prisoners? I've heard Bush & Co. have changed that one too. Of course, now that they can put anyone they want into prison without any restraint...
 

Belfast

Member
Milhouse31 said:
Rules are made to change....so i heard

That's the Constitution, not the Bill of Rights.

Besides, amendments ADD clauses based upon significant changes made in the country, they do NOT take away from the basic freedoms and statements promised by above documents.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Amendments are enumerations of changes to the Constitution itself, not seperate documents, and they can add or take away. The Bill of Rights happens to be the first set of amendments to the original Consitutution.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
No person in this fucking world should possess power to detain you without valid reason. I find this ruling quite disturbing, eventhough they include the caveat that detainees have access to the federal judicial system. But this is still unreasonable. A lot of time can pass before you get processed and have your case heard. This ruling means the government can put you on ice for months at a time, even if they know they're wrong. By the time you get a fair judgement in your favor, you've just spent a few months in some federal detention center out out contact with anyone. It's a bit of an extreme case, but it's not like these changes all happen overnight. This is a step in the wrong direction. It's a bit ridiculous that the only way to fight crime/terror/whatever is to restrict everyone's rights. Not very clever, not very creative, not very good. :x It's time for that civil war Titor predicted. ;) PEACE.
 
Guileless said:
Any of you objectors want to try your hand at actually criticizing the legal reasoning of the majority, instead of 4 letter words and Nazi references?

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/03slipopinion.html
Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (4th case down from the top).

I've already spoke my piece on these decisions. When Padilla comes up again, he will win. That's what's important. Hamdi speaks to an incredibly small class of 'enemy combatants' - American citizens who take up arms against American troops on a battlefield. Padilla-type 'enemy combatants' - Americans who are accused of plotting terror in america - cannot be held indefinitely by the government without charging and trial. That's the ruling I expect - if it comes up to the SC again, Scalia will be the fifth vote in Padilla's favor. (I basically agree with Scalia's dissent to Hamdi, but I've expressed my view of how to solve the Hamdi problem altogether in an earlier post).
 

Belfast

Member
Hitokage said:
Amendments are enumerations of changes to the Constitution itself, not seperate documents, and they can add or take away. The Bill of Rights happens to be the first set of amendments to the original Consitutution.

I didn't say they were separate documents, and I still don't believe they can "take away" (and when I say that, I mean take away positive, reasonable freedoms that improve the condition of the Constitution and the people). You might cite something like prohibition, of course, but the idea of prohibition does not overtake the original ideals presented in the Constitution. It is not held on a higher plateau. Besides, we all know how that turned out.

What I'm basically trying to say is that an amendment is not meant to decrease our inherent freedom.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Hah, I can tell Guileless actually hasn't read the decision himself, or he wouldn't be asking people to debate the legal reasoning. The report of the court's decision is unduly vague and misleading. The subject of possible protest is not the detainees condition while under suspension, but rather the suspension itself. The Supreme Court decision establishes two things, both important:

- He did indeed have the right of Habeas Corpus, although the extent to which the evidence can be reviewed may depend on the situation.

- He did indeed have the right to legal counsel.

Although it seems the justices were less decided as to whether or not the detention itself was legal... oh well, there's another case to clear that issue up.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I also like how O'Connor flatly denounces the claim that Executive decision is beyond objection on grounds of seperation of powers.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
No, I haven't read the decision. That's why I haven't expressed an opinion on it yet. I have no basis on which to form an opinion.
 

MASB

Member
MetatronM said:
Except Lincoln lost that Supreme Court case.
Yeah, but didn't Lincoln basically tell the Court to screw itself and ignored their ruling? I believe that's what he did at any rate. Today's ruling, well, it's stupid to say the least. If a person is detained, then they need to be charged and put on trial where evidence is given and a defense mounted. Either do that or let them go. Anything else is not good enough.
 

Shinobi

Member
Absolutely sickening...again, the idea that terrorists were the ones who attacked freedom on 9/11 while this shit goes on continues to be a laugh riot.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
>>>WTF is going on with America?<<<

The terrorists win. Flawless victory.
 
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