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[gofreak]

Since a picture speaks a thousand words...an example:

After all the fallout from Nintendo's keynote, I've just gotten around to reading this quote from Reggie, and thinking about the possibilities it could open up:

IGNcube: Will the DS online network serve as an infrastructure for future online Revolution games?

Reggie: About DS wireless Internet play. Yes, we're going to be making announcements about that tomorrow. And there's going to be a lot of activity that we'll be sharing now through E3 and to the end of this year. We'll be launching wireless enabled games on DS this year. Could that framework be compatible with Revolution? Certainly it could. We'll be talking more about that, again both tomorrow and at E3. But it's very important for your community out there to understand that we see the potential for Internet play for all of our platforms to be a huge opportunity and something that we're going to be driving very aggressively.

Now, potentially this could allow for a lot of very cool stuff to happen, if certain things fall into place. Stuff like the following, perhaps:

Messaging between Revolution and DS?- imagine going online with your DS with something like Pictochat and not only seeing friends in the immediate vicinity, or even friends online with DS, but friends who are online with their Revolutions. Imagine instant messaging between all of these, or perhaps even voice messaging? Basically, an integrated messaging service across DS and Revolution as part of the core Nintendo online service.

Multiplayer gaming across Revolution and DS? - this could take a number of possible forms. This could be a very neat, and a far more appealing extenstion of what Nintendo was trying to do with "connectivity", but without cables, without even the need to have people in the same room as you. As a motivator, imagine going online with your DS, seeing that your friends are online playing a Revolution game, and being able to participate in that game in some form or another. Perhaps you'd need to already own that game on Revolution before Nintendo would allow you to particpate in this kind of way with DS, or perhaps they'd be generous and simply allow you to participate in whatever your friends are doing on Revolution regardless of whether you've invested in the Revolution game or not. Think of, for example, how you could hook a GBA up with Wind Waker, but think about doing that wirelessly over the net (and perhaps with more sophisticated ideas than what was shown in WW). It could be like some of the stuff you see in PC land, like Dungeon Masters in Neverwinter Nights or the commander viewpoint in Battlefield 2 - just a way for you to continue participating in your online Revolution games when you have to get up and go - not in the same way that you can on Revolution, but in ways that make sense on DS (and I think stuff like the above two mentioned games are doing with "commander views" and DMs would fit on DS fine, with the touchscreen and all). Think perhaps also of a massively multiplayer online RPG - you're playing on your Revolution, and then you have to get up and leave, but you can keep gaining experience in the game by playing in another form on your DS, with it saving data back to a server. Or a strategy game that's across DS and Revolution, where you can play against other people regardless of the platform - play with your DS when you're out during the day, and then come home and play at night on your Rev with much richer graphics etc. Or a pokemon game...(yeah, there could be some pretty freaking amazing potential right there..).

I guess, to encapsulate it in one point, I'm talking about the possibility of a persistant, integrated Nintendo community across both your Revolution and your DS. And in some ways, a resuscitation of the ideas Nintendo experimented with in "connectivity" but this time, it'd actually make sense. With GC/GBA, I wanted to know why I had to use my GBA to do this stuff - why couldn't I just do it on my GC as part of the game? With this idea, the reason why you can't is because you're not anywhere near your Revolution to use it! You're away, out for the day - but now you can still keep in touch with your Rev games. When it's like that, it becomes a compelling bonus, and it makes sense. I think the potential could be HUGE. On the feasibility end of things, there are two questions I can see:

1) With regards to the first idea, cross-platform messaging, in order to do this, there'd have to be a way for Nintendo to upgrade the built-in DS software (unless such capability is already in the DS, just waiting to be unlocked, which I think is unlikely). Would there be away for Nintendo to stream new software to your DS the first time you connect to their service? Or would it have to be done via cartridges that would flash your in-built software to this new online enabled version? The former would be preferable to the latter, if possible..of course, there's also the question of how your DS will connect to the service in the first place. I guess they could do it using the first online game you try - the game knows what to do, connects, and on the first time streams new built-in software that'll allow your DS to connect on its own subsequently (and handle any online DS-DS communication, or DS-Revolution communication, and over-the-net game streaming)

edit - it struck me that a far easier, and more obvious solution to getting the built-in software online ready would be to include the software with any online games - so that if you're using an online game for the first time with your DS, it could perhaps flash your built-in software with the online ready version..would be much faster than streaming over the network etc.

2) For the second idea to come to fruition, DS would need to be able to capture games streamed to it, and play them without any extra carts etc. However, that it is already capable of streaming multiplayer games to other DSes wirelessly should be a good sign (even if streaming over the net might be slower?)? It also wouldn't be like when GC streamed games to your GBA, for example in Animal Crossing, and then when your turned off your GBA you lost the game - with online stuff, if you turned off your DS, you'd lose it, but when you turned it back on, you could just stream the game back onto your DS over the net, and start where you left off. Presumably there's a limited capacity for this, though..I'm guessing there's some memory in DS reserved for games streamed onto it? How much is there? If it's not a lot, or enough, perhaps Nintendo could provide a DS cart that'll serve as a "utilty" cart with lots of space for cross-DS/Revolution games etc.

Anyone want to chip in with ideas/thoughts on feasibility for this?

 

[gofreak]

No one else thinking this is what they might be up to? :lol For those with an aversion to long posts, I'm talking about one online "world/community" shared between Revolution and DS with communication and multiplayer between and across both platforms. See above for details

And a bump..

 

[ImNotLikeThem]

i think that all that was meant by both the question and the answer to that, was that could the "framework" that Nintendo has created for the back end of the internet system be applied to both the DS and the Revolution. Not so much could they communicate with each other, but more like how Xbox and XboxNext will share the same Live "framework".

 

[gofreak]

Indeed, perhaps, but I think this is so obvious that Nintendo would be silly not to persue it, imo (unless, of course, there are some major technical issues I'm not thinking of).

Re. the whole messaging thing, I was just thinking also of how Miyamoto had been talking a fair bit about instant messaging recently, and how perhaps DS might integrate with other instant messaging systems..I think if Revolution is to have one (and that seems highly likely), wouldn't it make sense to start with that? Why not make the logical extension to more general gaming services too?

 

[krypt0nian]

At this point I just want actual DS games to come out.

I give two shits about linking it with anything.

 

[Agent X]

Messaging between Revolution and DS?- imagine going online with your DS with something like Pictochat and not only seeing friends in the immediate vicinity, or even friends online with DS, but friends who are online with their Revolutions. Imagine instant messaging between all of these, or perhaps even voice messaging? Basically, an integrated messaging service across DS and Revolution as part of the core Nintendo online service.

This could work very well, and I predict that it will happen.

Multiplayer gaming across Revolution and DS? - this could take a number of possible forms. This could be a very neat, and a far more appealing extenstion of what Nintendo was trying to do with "connectivity", but without cables, without even the need to have people in the same room as you.

I think that's the whole point.

The GBA/GC connectivity was a bit cumbersome, because people had to buy cables for each GBA, and the GBA was somewhat limited in what it could do (communication speed, controls, etc.). The only reason to connect the GBA to the GC was to use the GBA's screen, because the controls provided less options than the standard GC controller.

With the DS, you've got a couple more buttons now, and a touch screen interface. While you still don't have the analog sticks and all of the buttons of the GC controller, at least now you have something different in the touch screen, which probably won't be present on the standard Revolution controller. The data communication speed is much faster, and the DS has much more memory available to it. All you would need to do is boot up the game disc in the Revolution, and make a menu selection that tells the machine that tells it you've got a DS in the vicinity.

I guess, to encapsulate it in one point, I'm talking about the possibility of a persistant, integrated Nintendo community across both your Revolution and your DS. And in some ways, a resuscitation of the ideas Nintendo experimented with in "connectivity" but this time, it'd actually make sense. With GC/GBA, I wanted to know why I had to use my GBA to do this stuff - why couldn't I just do it on my GC as part of the game? With this idea, the reason why you can't is because you're not anywhere near your Revolution to use it! You're away, out for the day - but now you can still keep in touch with your Rev games. When it's like that, it becomes a compelling bonus, and it makes sense. I think the potential could be HUGE.

I agree. It could also be applied to the single-player experience. You could play an action-RPG at home on the Revolution, when your friends invite you to see an awesome new movie that just opened. You decide that you want to play a few bite-sized side quests while you're waiting in line for tickets, so you grab your DS and your character is now along for the ride. When you get home, you turn on the Revolution, and your character is once again playable on the big screen, complete with his added experience points and items that were accumulated while playing the portable side quests.

Regarding games that are playable between DS and Revolution, it would probably lend itself better to games where large amounts of graphical prowess isn't demanded, like puzzle games, board games, and card games. You could play Bejeweled or Scrabble or a poker game on either system, and get a similar gameplay experience.

If it's not a lot, or enough, perhaps Nintendo could provide a DS cart that'll serve as a "utilty" cart with lots of space for cross-DS/Revolution games etc.

It would be good for them to provide some cheap flash memory cartridge for the DS at some point to facilitate this.

 

[DCharlie]

the Revolution controller IS the revolution.

why put DS in the way?

 

[gofreak]

Regarding games that are playable between DS and Revolution, it would probably lend itself better to games where large amounts of graphical prowess isn't demanded, like puzzle games, board games, and card games. You could play Bejeweled or Scrabble or a poker game on either system, and get a similar gameplay experience.

The experience on the DS side wouldn't have to be the same as on the Revolution side. You could do different things in the game that suit that system versus Revolution. Like, as I mentioned in the first post, if you had a game like Battlefield 2, with two styles of play - the "standard" FPS action mode, and also a more strategic top-down commander mode. Imagine doing the whole FPS action bit on your Revolution, and then getting up and going out, to college, wherever and still being able to play with your mates who are still on their Revolutions, but instead now using the top-down commander mode in DS (the touchscreen etc. would be perfect for this. add voice commands if possible etc.). As long as you're within range of a hotspot, you're good to go. That's just one example where it could work well. Customers wouldn't expect an identical experience..I think they'd easily accept that this is how you can play the game on your Revolution, this is how you can play it on your DS - the important part is that no matter whether you're at home, or away (near a hotspot), you can still partake in that same game, and play with your friends, regardless of whether they're at home or away too.

the Revolution controller IS the revolution.

why put DS in the way?

Not sure if I get what you mean..? One system can't have too many innovations, can it?

edit - here's another possible idea, kinda inspired by kirby DS. you go online with your DS, see a friend playing Mario 128 on Revolution - decide to "join" him, and you're presented with a various different 2D views of the level he's playing (top down, profile etc.) and where he is. Using your stylus you draw some platforms, or destroy some etc. alter other stuff - your level alterations get rendered in realtime on his Revolution and affect his game. Obviously you could only do this in a limited fashion, and it would need to be designed carefully to avoid frustration etc. but meshing the creativity allowed by the touchscreen in terms of drawing etc. with what's going on in full 3D on someone's Revolution game could be very cool. It could be a seperate mode from singleplayer..a challenge mode, perhaps, that would offer levels of pure platforming..perhaps you need to reach a goal within a certain timeframe, and the DS user has to try and prevent you doing that. You could have rankings worldwide based on best times, who defeated who etc. etc.

 

[bitwise]

i remain unexcited.

 

[gofreak]

i remain unexcited.

As you can tell, I am, quite Personally, since I'm around wifi spots most of my day, I would love it. I think, creatively, the potential is enormous. I'm mean, I'm just a regular joe..the pros could come with something spectacular. It'd be a good way for Nintendo to differentiate themselves too (at least from MS..), while still appealing to the hardcore (it'd appeal to me anyway!).

 

[DCharlie]

"Not sure if I get what you mean..? One system can't have too many innovations, can it? "

I'm convinced that the revolutionary part of the Revolution is not the machine itself. It's the controller.

 

[dock]

Gofreak, I can see where you're coming from, and I think we'll see some of this - although to a lesser degree. There are some gameplay experiences already which can illustrate an appropriate use of the technology.

Imagine a Zelda Four Swords game, available for DS and revolution.
DS can play locally, or even over Wifi.
The Rev can play over wifi, with one player on the system, and playing with other DSs or Revs. Also, it can be played traditionally... but over wifi. Imagine two players playing on DS on one Rev, and another two DS on another rev.

This isn't really that complicated, it's just the same game concept with more options available. I'm expecting more Zelda Four Swords / Crystal Chronicles style experiences on the Rev/DS, as you can play with other players online it will immediately elliminate the 'problems' with playing (ie finding enough people + GBAs + cables).


Another alternative would be to have a MMO game of some sort, where players on Rev serve one role, and players on DS serve a different role completely. If the role was compulsary and bound to the platform, it would make it pretty interesting, and would be easy to control the technological gap.

 

[gofreak]

"Not sure if I get what you mean..? One system can't have too many innovations, can it? "

I'm convinced that the revolutionary part of the Revolution is not the machine itself. It's the controller.

I expect that's what they're talking about too, but I see no reason why that might prevent them from persuing this...(?)

Gofreak, I can see where you're coming from, and I think we'll see some of this - although to a lesser degree. There are some gameplay experiences already which can illustrate an appropriate use of the technology.

True, and that's what I'm talking about. But I'm not sure if it would have to be done to a lesser degree than some of the examples I've shown - although I am wondering what the upper limit is in terms of information sharing between a DS and a Revolution is - just how much can a DS accept etc. Consider what a DS can accept being streamed to it from other DS's in terms of current DS wireless games - 3D tracks in Mario karts, plus info about 8 other players, for example. That's a not inconsiderable amount, and not incomparable to what I was talking about in my examples earlier (which mostly featured 2D views for example). I'm sure the DS can accept far more being streamed to it than GBA could, for example. The other issue is bandwidth - broadband (which can be assumed if we're talking wifi..?) should allow us to do a lot (which makes me think that voice communication between DS and Rev should also be possible)?

 

[dock]

One thing to consider, is that DS cartridges/cards are very cheap to manufacture (hense the demo of Metroid/wario that is available). This should make it theoretically possible for games to come packaged with both a Rev game and a DS cart. Much like Animal Crossing included a memory card, this would do something similar with the DS version of the Rev game, and allow for more flexibility - much moreso than downloading the game from the machine does.

 

[soundwave05]

I think the Game Boy Next will be able to do more things than the DS. It should have more RAM and more processing power than even the PSP (one would think anyway).

Maybe the GB Next might be able to stream Revolution type graphics off its screen even.

A interoperable Revolution-Nintendo handheld network is basically inevitable now though.

 

[Agent X]

The experience on the DS side wouldn't have to be the same as on the Revolution side. You could do different things in the game that suit that system versus Revolution. Like, as I mentioned in the first post, if you had a game like Battlefield 2, with two styles of play - the "standard" FPS action mode, and also a more strategic top-down commander mode. Imagine doing the whole FPS action bit on your Revolution, and then getting up and going out, to college, wherever and still being able to play with your mates who are still on their Revolutions, but instead now using the top-down commander mode in DS (the touchscreen etc. would be perfect for this. add voice commands if possible etc.). As long as you're within range of a hotspot, you're good to go. That's just one example where it could work well. Customers wouldn't expect an identical experience..I think they'd easily accept that this is how you can play the game on your Revolution, this is how you can play it on your DS - the important part is that no matter whether you're at home, or away (near a hotspot), you can still partake in that same game, and play with your friends, regardless of whether they're at home or away too.

That's true, and that's a good example. To clarify, I didn't want to give the impression that games couldn't be played between the DS and the Revolution--just that I think certain genres or types of games might lend themselves better to it. I was also thinking that sports games could probably be playable between the two machines.

I also liked your other example below.

edit - here's another possible idea, kinda inspired by kirby DS. you go online with your DS, see a friend playing Mario 128 on Revolution - decide to "join" him, and you're presented with a various different 2D views of the level he's playing (top down, profile etc.) and where he is. Using your stylus you draw some platforms, or destroy some etc. alter other stuff - your level alterations get rendered in realtime on his Revolution and affect his game. Obviously you could only do this in a limited fashion, and it would need to be designed carefully to avoid frustration etc. but meshing the creativity allowed by the touchscreen in terms of drawing etc. with what's going on in full 3D on someone's Revolution game could be very cool. It could be a seperate mode from singleplayer..a challenge mode, perhaps, that would offer levels of pure platforming..perhaps you need to reach a goal within a certain timeframe, and the DS user has to try and prevent you doing that. You could have rankings worldwide based on best times, who defeated who etc. etc.

Didn't the GameCube version of Rayman 3 have something like this for two players, with the second player using a connected GBA? I've read in reviews that the GBA user would play some Tetris-like game where he would assemble falling blocks on his screen, which would be seen by the GameCube player as a 3D pathway forming piece by piece in realtime in front of Rayman, that he could walk on.

 

[gofreak]

Didn't the GameCube version of Rayman 3 have something like this for two players, with the second player using a connected GBA? I've read in reviews that the GBA user would play some Tetris-like game where he would assemble falling blocks on his screen, which would be seen by the GameCube player as a 3D pathway forming piece by piece in realtime in front of Rayman, that he could walk on.

That's actually pretty cool, I'd no idea it had something like that. The extra screen of the GBA would actually be useful for that, avoids splitting the screen I guess. I could imagine on DS, though, the "editability" would be a good bit more freeform.

I think the Game Boy Next will be able to do more things than the DS. It should have more RAM and more processing power than even the PSP (one would think anyway).

True, it could make the experience on a handheld more like the experience at home. But may not be even desireable...if the experiences are different, there's a reason to own both. If you handheld was the exact same, why bother with the home console really at all? Plus, the DS has features the next GB may not, that perhaps make it more suited to this kind of interoperability and as a communications device..like the touchscreen, the mic, the two screens etc.

I added "illustrative" pic to my first post, since I was bored and it probably says more than my long winded post ever could

 

[Rahul]

Messaging between Revolution and DS?- imagine going online with your DS with something like Pictochat and not only seeing friends in the immediate vicinity

Imagine instant messaging between all of these, or perhaps even voice messaging?

imagine going online with your DS, seeing that your friends are online playing a Revolution game

Imagine doing the whole FPS action bit on your Revolution

Imagine a Zelda Four Swords game,

Imagine two players playing on DS on one Rev,

I could imagine on DS, though,

The problem with this thread is that there is no underlying practical involvement. Please illustrate how exactly you expect gameplay like this to be proven as significant added value for the consumer (without going into "imagining" how cool Zelda/Advance Wars/Final Fantasy/Mario/etc. would be with this feature), as well as the developer, as well as Nintendo's network. How is data portability going to work? You just want to fling things around in the ether and not worry about it? How are developers supposed to create games using this underlying principle if they can't be sure of demographics that make it worth investing time and money into? Are you going to spend $300 + $150 for several games that just use gimmicky additive puzzle games and mini-quests to "entertain" while playing remotely? How exactly does this initiative really differ from GBA/GC insofar as being executed all the way rather than only haphazardly and primarily by Nintendo themselves?

I'm as progressively oriented as the next gamer but I think you're a generation ahead of yourself. Unless Nintendo has great, solid network architecture and business models ready to massively support this kind of initiative not only with the DS' minute installed base but also GBA and GBNext, as well as making the interaction entirely free and independent of Revolution purchases, I don't see it happening.

I'd like to imagine with you, though. It'd be cool if it happened.

 

[duckroll]

You're obviously missing his main point..... :lol :lol :lol

 

[Rahul]

You're obviously missing his main point..... :lol :lol :lol

Sorry. Just applying logic.

Also, good song, A Perfect Circle did a cover of that last year.

 

[Drexon]

Ok, so mic in Revo controller? Gah.

 

[gofreak]

The problem with this thread is that there is no underlying practical involvement.

Please read the thread title - the first question I ask is, "feasibility?" I'm not as well versed as others in terms of how possible this will be from a networking point of view, which is why I brought it up here, hoping we could figure out if it was possible or not.

Please illustrate how exactly you expect gameplay like this to be proven as significant added value for the consumer (without going into "imagining" how cool Zelda/Advance Wars/Final Fantasy/Mario/etc. would be with this feature)

It's a value-add, because as I would see it at the very least your purchase of the Revolution game would entitle you to connect online with your DS, download the "DS version" and then play with other Revolution or DS users. I'm not talking at all about buying a DS cart that'll let you do this, or buying another DS version of the game. At home, you could perhaps engage in both types of gameplay using just your Revolution, but when not at home, if you have a DS, you can at least access a DS style of gameplay - how can that be anything but a bonus? Nintendo could even allow people who don't own the Revolution game to play - it'd be a good way to promote products.

How is data portability going to work?

If you mean, how do you share data, presumably it'd be similar to how the GC could share data with the GBA, as with the Wind Waker etc. If Nintendo could define a common standard packet for use with DS and Revolution online games, then it's completely up to the developer what goes into those packets..you could have a Revolution sending data to a DS or to a server which would subsequently pass it on to a DS, that would be useable by the DS game. In terms of this, and in terms of all the technical specifics, certainly it's up to Nintendo to provide a good framework and good tools to make this happen. I think a lot of the pieces of the puzzle are already there, though, but done locally, and now it'd be a case of elevating it across the internet.

How are developers supposed to create games using this underlying principle if they can't be sure of demographics that make it worth investing time and money into?

I think from a creative standpoint, the urge to utilise such a common framework would be overwhelming. If a developer is making an online revolution game, they could ask themselves "is there any way to expose this game to our users who also have DS?", and if there's something there that makes sense, they could go for it. The payback could come in terms of promotion of product to DS users who don't have the Rev game, or perhaps (yes) third parties could even charge for it if they felt they were offering enough extra value. But yes, it certainly would be up to Nintendo to lead the way, and I expect they would if they persued such a common service.

Are you going to spend $300 + $150 for several games that just use gimmicky additive puzzle games and mini-quests to "entertain" while playing remotely?

In terms of the spend, I'm not sure if you got me wrong, but in case you did, I'm not talking about buying any extras. There are no extras, you don't need to buy DS specific version of the game. This is something you could avail of if you had a DS. Also, I'd argue that far more would be possible than simple puzzle games and mini-quests - don't compare what was possible with GBA-GCN connectivity with what might be possible here. Consider that the DS can hold a lot more game without a cart than the GBA can. Consider the touchscreen. Consider the mic. In terms of one of the examples I mentioned above, I see no reason why you could couldn't have a BF2 type setup with FPS on Rev and 2D commander mode on DS, with voice communication between them all. That's far more compelling than anything that was shown with GBA-GCN imo, and the fact that it's done over the net, not requiring you to be in a room with someone, automatically legitimises it. Yeah, you could be playing the Rev version...if you were at home! But you're not! You're out! But flip open your DS, and you can still join the game, albeit in a different way.

How exactly does this initiative really differ from GBA/GC insofar as being executed all the way rather than only haphazardly and primarily by Nintendo themselves?

Executing it all the way is what makes all the difference. As I said before, GBA-GCN connectivity in most cases didn't make sense, because it usually didn't allow for anything that wasn't possible on GC. That aside, we're talking about two technically different systems. The DS opens up far more possibilities than the GBA did in terms of communication and more.

I'm as progressively oriented as the next gamer but I think you're a generation ahead of yourself.

Maybe, I question the feasibility myself, that's why I've brought it up here.

Unless Nintendo has great, solid network architecture and business models ready to massively support this kind of initiative not only with the DS' minute installed base but also GBA and GBNext, as well as making the interaction entirely free and independent of Revolution purchases

Where does the GBA come into it? And why does it have to be independent of Revolution purchases? If you don't have a Revolution, you can still play all the regular DS online games, it's just if you do, you could now stay connected to them even when you're not at home.

 

[Rahul]

Please read the thread title - the first question I ask is, "feasibility?" I'm not as well versed as others in terms of how possible this will be from a networking point of view, which is why I brought it up here, hoping we could figure out if it was possible or not.

I did read the thread title - the point of my response is to bring these things to the table instead of meandering in daydreams all day and accomplishing nothing

It's a value-add, because as I would see it at the very least your purchase of the Revolution game would entitle you to connect online with your DS, download the "DS version" and then play with other Revolution or DS users. I'm not talking at all about buying a DS cart that'll let you do this, or buying another DS version of the game. At home, you could perhaps engage in both types of gameplay using just your Revolution, but when not at home, if you have a DS, you can at least access a DS style of gameplay - how can that be anything but a bonus? Nintendo could even allow people who don't own the Revolution game to play - it'd be a good way to promote products.

The problem with the entire model as you propose it lies in the chicken-egg situation as I will explain below...

If you mean, how do you share data, presumably it'd be similar to how the GC could share data with the GBA, as with the Wind Waker etc. If Nintendo could define a common standard packet for use with DS and Revolution online games, then it's completely up to the developer what goes into those packets..you could have a Revolution sending data to a DS or to a server which would subsequently pass it on to a DS, that would be useable by the DS game.

To send information from the Rev to your DS, you need to be in reach of the Rev providing it has that capability. If not, the network needs to support massive bandwidth for streaming this kind of information around worldwide at any time without limitations beyond basic protocol (since each game will have its own definitions of what information should be sent). Nintendo intends to provide a free service; I'm not sure it's feasible to then go and allow unlimited data streaming on a worldwide scale.

I think from a creative standpoint, the urge to utilise such a common framework would be overwhelming. If a developer is making an online revolution game, they could ask themselves "is there any way to expose this game to our users who also have DS?", and if there's something there that makes sense, they could go for it. The payback could come in terms of promotion of product to DS users who don't have the Rev game, or perhaps (yes) third parties could even charge for it if they felt they were offering enough extra value. But yes, it certainly would be up to Nintendo to lead the way, and I expect they would if they persued such a common service.

Absolutely, from a creative standpoint it's a great idea. But creativity doesn't define the game experience these days as we all to often have to bear. The core question is "is there any way to ensure that the added development time we put into this extension will be played by a relevant percentage of consumers?"

In terms of the spend, I'm not sure if you got me wrong, but in case you did, I'm not talking about buying any extras. There are no extras, you don't need to buy DS specific version of the game. This is something you could avail of if you had a DS. Also, I'd argue that far more would be possible than simple puzzle games and mini-quests - don't compare what was possible with GBA-GCN connectivity with what might be possible here. Consider that the DS can hold a lot more game without a cart than the GBA can. Consider the touchscreen. Consider the mic. In terms of one of the examples I mentioned above, I see no reason why you could couldn't have a BF2 type setup with FPS on Rev and 2D commander mode on DS, with voice communication between them all. That's far more compelling than anything that was shown with GBA-GCN imo, and the fact that it's done over the net, not requiring you to be in a room with someone, automatically legitimises it. Yeah, you could be playing the Rev version...if you were at home! But you're not! You're out! But flip open your DS, and you can still join the game, albeit in a different way.

By $300 I mean Revolution, and by $150 I mean DS. OK, so you're hypothesising that you might be able to play alongside your friends without owning the Revolution. I say this isn't happening unless Nintendo is willing to suck up the cost of being connected. Your $40 that goes into the purchase of the Rev game won't be paying for it, so what will? Your initial DS purchase? No. Will developers be interested in supporting a network where participating consumers get things for free? Unlikely. So we're in a chicken-egg situation where the developer isn't willing to spend significant time developing additional gameplay experiences if there isn't enough relevant demographic to make it profitable, and the consumer isn't going to buy into the infrastructure unless they can be guaranteed, en-masse, that the purchase will have valuable gameplay experiences waiting for them. I'm aware that a lot of gameplay options are open on the techincal level and that an amazing array of communicative applications could be developed, but the problem is that no one is going to want to until there's a good reason to. And you have this problem on both sides of the purchase.

Executing it all the way is what makes all the difference. As I said before, GBA-GCN connectivity in most cases didn't make sense, because it usually didn't allow for anything that wasn't possible on GC. That aside, we're talking about two technically different systems. The DS opens up far more possibilities than the GBA did in terms of communication and more.

The DS also has 1/50 installed base that the GBA does. So when does something like this become interesting for the developer? When they know that there are a certain percentage of DS' out there with the ability to connect to their game? Out of, say, 15 million DS' worldwide when Revolution launches, how many of those are interested in participating in the Revolution game? How many of those are able to connect frequently on the hardcore level (with games like Battlefield)? What can either party do to ensure mutual contentedness from pursuing this model? I'm still not convinced.

Where does the GBA come into it? And why does it have to be independent of Revolution purchases? If you don't have a Revolution, you can still play all the regular DS online games, it's just if you do, you could now stay connected to them even when you're not at home.

The GBA comes in because it's a handheld with wireless communication capability and it has a massive installed base. If you're going to suggest a handheld for communication with Revolution, then you might as well talk about GBA, because DS just isn't out there on the level that any Rev developer would consider worthwhile at this point. Not now, probably not in 2006, and if they wait much longer than that, what's the point of even using the network?

 

[acidviper]

Great ideas, but something tells me it will be very simplistic. And in some way be useful for the type of games Nintendo makes as opposed to games everyone else makes.

 

[shuri]

The whole fps + rts commander hybrid has been done about 2 years ago on PC in a strange persistant fps game. The name escapes me, I'm sure some other gaffer could help me there. While it's a "cool concept", I really doubt that Nintendo will launch themselves into such a project after the whole Final Fantasy Chronicle debacle.. Dont you think?

 

[gofreak]

To send information from the Rev to your DS, you need to be in reach of the Rev providing it has that capability. If not, the network needs to support massive bandwidth for streaming this kind of information around worldwide at any time without limitations beyond basic protocol (since each game will have its own definitions of what information should be sent). Nintendo intends to provide a free service; I'm not sure it's feasible to then go and allow unlimited data streaming on a worldwide scale.

I'm not sure how the bandwidth required would be any larger than any other online game? In fact, the packets being sent to DSes would probably be smaller.

By $300 I mean Revolution, and by $150 I mean DS. OK, so you're hypothesising that you might be able to play alongside your friends without owning the Revolution. I say this isn't happening unless Nintendo is willing to suck up the cost of being connected. Your $40 that goes into the purchase of the Rev game won't be paying for it, so what will? Your initial DS purchase? No.

Fair enough, but then I did say "if nintendo wanted to be generous" I still think inviting DS users into the world of another Revolution online could be a great promotional tool, even if it's availability wasn't limitless... But I think anyway that it'd be readily acceptable to the consumer if such interaction was limited to people who own the Revolution game.

The DS also has 1/50 installed base that the GBA does. So when does something like this become interesting for the developer?

When did DS on its own become interesting for a developer? The install base is 1/50 of the size, but there are plenty of games in the pipe..

I get your point, that there has to be users for it to be worthwhile, but I think if Nintendo has the framework/api in place, the resources required to expose an online Revolution game to DS in some fashion wouldn't be that great (relatively, even to a DS game), and many devs may simply do it out of experimentation starting off. Sure, though, in the long run, the users would have to come. But let's face, who here with a DS wouldn't take advantage of this type of service?

 

[gofreak]

The whole fps + rts commander hybrid has been done about 2 years ago on PC in a strange persistant fps game. The name escapes me, I'm sure some other gaffer could help me there. While it's a "cool concept", I really doubt that Nintendo will launch themselves into such a project after the whole Final Fantasy Chronicle debacle.. Dont you think?

This is completely different from "connectivity". It actually makes sense, read my above posts for a fuller explanation (i know some of them are long)

Connectivity failed because in most cases it served no purpose - it wasn't clear why you had to connect a GBA to your GC to do these things. When you're talking about remote interaction, over the net, away from your Revolution, that "why" disappears. It's more like "why not?". You buy your Rev game, go online and play - then if you have a DS, you can go out, go to work, whatever, and despite being away from your home console still connect to other players in that game and participate at no extra charge (you pay for it when you buy the Rev game). You know how it's cool to go look at Bungie's Halo2 site, look up your stats and see which of your friends are online playing right there and then? Imagine being able to go online with your DS and being able to watch your friends play online (with a similar 2D view as on Bungies site). A very very small simple example of what I'm talking about, asides from any gameplay potential.

 

[Spencerr]

Best case scenario:

Online MMORPG for DS and Revolution. Play while you're at home on your revolution, on the go at hotspots on your DS with the same account/character(s)

To keep it being the best case scenario, you'd really only need it for DS or Revolution if you didn't want to play on both.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I'm a little concerned that with all this wireless, MMORPGs will take over the world. I hate those things.