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[ManDudeChild]

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-11-11-marvel-sues-over-avatars_x.htm

LOS ANGELES — Marvel Enterprises is suing two firms behind a computer superhero role-playing game it claims allows players to make virtual characters that are too similar to "The Hulk," "X-Men" and other heroes in the comic book company's stable.
The lawsuit claims South Korea-based NCSoft and San Jose-based Cryptic Studios violated Marvel's trademark characters in their game City of Heroes. Marvel seeks unspecified damages and an injunction against the two companies to stop using its characters

Marvel sure likes to be asshats about this sort of stuff. In the Freedom Force situation last year they at least had a little legal (although douchbaggery was high) ground. If they were to somehow win this case, the MMO genre would be seriously hurt by this, especially with the character engines having more depth.

 

[Funky Papa]

Lets ban pencils and paper too.

 

[ManaByte]

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-11-11-marvel-sues-over-avatars_x.htm

Marvel sure likes to be asshats about this sort of stuff. In the Freedom Force situation last year they at least had a little legal (although douchbaggery was high) ground. If they were to somehow win this case, the MMO genre would be seriously hurt by this, especially with the character engines having more depth.

Uh, even before CoH was in retail, there were perfect versions of Wolverine and The Hulk running around open beta. I'm surprised it took Marvel this long to sue.

Oh, and this won't hut the MMO genre. It'll only hurt CoH.

You can't make an exact copy of Wolverine in WoW or EQ2.

 

[ManDudeChild]

Look at the bigger picture though. If Marvel were to somehow win this one, it would create a precidence, one that could be used in the future. If they won, how hard would it be for say New Line to sue Sony Online Entertainment if a character used player customization in EQ2 or a future version to create a character from LOTR down to the name?

 

[ManaByte]

Look at the bigger picture though. If Marvel were to somehow win this one, it would create a precidence, one that could be used in the future. If they won, how hard would it be for say New Line to sue Sony Online Entertainment if a character used player customization in EQ2 or a future version to create a character from LOTR down to the name?

New Line can't, they don't own the characters. The Tolkien Estate would, and that's already been addressed with major fantasy MMOs. The Tolkien people contact MMO companies when their game is still in development and warns them. LOTR stuff is policied when the game is released. If a player makes a character with a LOTR name, and they're caught, the name gets changed. Even stupid names that sound like LOTR names, like Dildo TBaggins. The main spellings of the names should be in the name filters by the time the game launches, but people work around that and then they get in trouble.

There's a huge difference between making a character that looks EXACTLY like Wolverine or the Hulk and naming your character "Legolas":

The company singles out a game feature for creating "a gigantic, green, 'science-based tanker'-type hero that moves and behaves nearly identically" to the "Hulk." Players can also create a "mutant-based" hero powers and a costume nearly identical to Marvel's "Wolverine," according to the suit.

Marvel can win this easily, and Cryptic will need to modify the character creation in CoH.

 

[Tellaerin]

I love how lawsuits have become a perfectly acceptable substitute for legitimate competition. Marvel has an MMORPG in the works, but City of Heroes is already phenomenally successful. So rather than trying to release a better game than the competition to win over players, Marvel sets loose their kennel of rabid attack lawyers. Apparently it's cheaper to cripple your competition in the courtroom than it is to develop a superior game.

Marvel can win this easily, and Cryptic will need to modify the character creation in CoH.

I certainly hope they can't 'win this easily', because frankly, the whole thing's bullshit. Protecting the rights to their characters is one thing, but with this suit, Marvel's trying to break down its characters into discrete elements and lay claim to each one individually, since they could potentially be assembled into something that looked like a Marvel character by an end-user. It's one thing if the CoH admins had prominent NPC's running around in the game world that are dead ringers for Cyclops, Wolverine, etc. It's another to look at a visor with an eyeslit and say, 'If some player decides to make that visor yellow and the eyeslit red, they could potentially build a Cyclops lookalike!' It's a nasty can of worms they'd be opening with that.

 

[ManaByte]

I love how lawsuits have become a perfectly acceptable substitute for legitimate competition. Marvel has an MMORPG in the works, but City of Heroes is already phenomenally successful. So rather than trying to release a better game than the competition to win over players, Marvel sets loose their kennel of rabid attack lawyers. Apparently it's cheaper to cripple your competition in the courtroom than it is to develop a superior game.

I certainly hope they can't 'win this easily', because frankly, the whole thing's bullshit. Protecting the rights to their characters is one thing, but with this suit, Marvel's trying to break down its characters into discrete elements and lay claim to each one individually, since they could potentially be assembled into something that looked like a Marvel character by an end-user. It's one thing if the CoH admins had prominent NPC's running around in the game world that are dead ringers for Cyclops, Wolverine, etc. It's another to look at a visor with an eyeslit and say, 'If some player decides to make that visor yellow and the eyeslit red, they could potentially build a Cyclops lookalike!' It's a nasty can of worms they'd be opening with that.

Which is the exact argument that Cryptic will use, to which Marvel will respond that it doesn't matter what the end user did; the game gave them the ability to create exact copies of Marvel characters with the tools the developers gave them. Thus, Marvel will win.

 

[ferricide]

Which is the exact argument that Cryptic will use, to which Marvel will respond that it doesn't matter what the end user did; the game gave them the ability to create exact copies of Marvel characters with the tools the developers gave them. Thus, Marvel will win.

you sound smug, like you think they should. gross.

 

[Zaptruder]

Which is the exact argument that Cryptic will use, to which Marvel will respond that it doesn't matter what the end user did; the game gave them the ability to create exact copies of Marvel characters with the tools the developers gave them. Thus, Marvel will win.

I hope CoH fans find you and jam you in pieces into Marvel management butts.

It would certainly be more entertaining to hear about then this tripe.

 

[mrklaw]

but then any game that allows you to skin your character could be sued by *every* company that has any character IP at all.

So ID could be sued by all the movie studios, and disney etc, because users can use the tools to create replicas of their IP.

One stage further, does this mean that I can now sue Smith and Wesson for making a gun that allows me to kill people? Thats the kind of switch this is. People are no longer responsible for their actions?

 

[ManDudeChild]

but then any game that allows you to skin your character could be sued by *every* company that has any character IP at all.

So ID could be sued by all the movie studios, and disney etc, because users can use the tools to create replicas of their IP.

One stage further, does this mean that I can now sue Smith and Wesson for making a gun that allows me to kill people? Thats the kind of switch this is. People are no longer responsible for their actions?

Exactly what I was saying. It's not so much THIS one suit that's the issue (although this is an issue), it's what could easily happen if Marvel were to win this.

 

[Panajev2001a]

but then any game that allows you to skin your character could be sued by *every* company that has any character IP at all.

So ID could be sued by all the movie studios, and disney etc, because users can use the tools to create replicas of their IP.

One stage further, does this mean that I can now sue Smith and Wesson for making a gun that allows me to kill people? Thats the kind of switch this is. People are no longer responsible for their actions?

You hit the nail on the head: manabyte in this case is defending insanity and what is wrong and perverse of the current system.

Hopefully courts will not let Marvel start a huge snowball which could destory the industry.

 

[Link316]

Which is the exact argument that Cryptic will use, to which Marvel will respond that it doesn't matter what the end user did; the game gave them the ability to create exact copies of Marvel characters with the tools the developers gave them. Thus, Marvel will win.

um this is stupid, if Marvel wins it sets a precedent for no more "create a character" in any type of game whether its wrestling, MMOPRG, football, etc, etc

 

[Matlock]

The limiting of the character creation process to avoid lawsuits is painfully stupid. As a game-maker, it means that you are now responsible for your own customers' creativity (or lack thereof) with your unique and deep character system. Just because they can be copycats doesn't mean you should be liable.

Holy shit, nevermind, someone made a bigass green guy who beats things down!

 

[Unison]

Next up on CourtTV:

Britney Spears sues The Sims!

 

[FitzOfRage]

The limiting of the character creation process to avoid lawsuits is painfully stupid. As a game-maker, it means that you are now responsible for your own customers' creativity (or lack thereof) with your unique and deep character system. Just because they can be copycats doesn't mean you should be liable.

Holy shit, nevermind, someone made a bigass green guy who beats things down!

Well on the other side of it, what rights does Marvel have at all then? What stops any company from including a create a character that intentionally makes it easy to copy Marvel characters in any game at all for the sole purpose of getting around licensing the characters?

I mean if Activision were to release an unlicensed game called "Web Attack" which allowed you to make a Spider-Man replica, are they safe, as long as they count on users to put it together, and include generic alternatives for show? And if that's the case, can developers use that as an excuse to throw any charcter into any situation (like Link in Mortal Kombat)?

Not really taking one side or the other, just not sure where the line is.

 

[Razoric]

Which is the exact argument that Cryptic will use, to which Marvel will respond that it doesn't matter what the end user did; the game gave them the ability to create exact copies of Marvel characters with the tools the developers gave them. Thus, Marvel will win.

How can you defend this shit? Pathetic.

Cryptic gave you the ability to make any kind of super hero you wanted (which in turn means that you could possibly replicate an existing super hero)... and Marvel should win this lawsuit?

Maybe Summers Eve should sue you for imitating one of their products so well.

 

[Matlock]

How can you defend this shit? Pathetic.

Cryptic gave you the ability to make any kind of super hero you wanted (which in turn means that you could possibly replicate an existing super hero)... and Marvel should win this lawsuit?

Maybe Summers Eve should sue you for imitating one of their products so well.

:lol

 

[borghe]

they won't win.

plain and simple the EULA says it is against TOS to create characters or names based on existing licensed characters AND they have been actively pursuing the enforcement of those rules.

Everyone points out Napster, but you forget that for a brief period of time Napster WAS allowed to operate in its original form when they attempted to block copyrighted music through fingerprinting. It was only after the blocking proved to be ineffective that the service eventually had to be shutdown.

All Cryptic has to do is show that they are actively enforcing the EULA and deleting potential trademark infringements and a judge will throw this one out.

Ruling in favor of marvel would be like ruling against Xerox because you can scan a comic book with a copier. The more customizable character generators become the more this type of thing will occur. As long as companies are prohibiting and enforcing copyrights and trademarks, it is ridiculous to think the original holders will get away with such bullying.

I personally don't see how manabyte can see this as a slamdunk. this is just a lousy attempt by marvel to eliminate competition to their game.

I love marvel but I hope NCSoft and Cryptic countersue for damages and fees.

 

[krypt0nian]

To be fair to Cryptic, they do have a firm policy in place about protected charas (Marvel. DC, etc) and no "clone" makes it in the world long before being banned.

There may be some n00bs still creating fake Wulvereens, Supraman's, etc. but they cannot progress long.

There is actually a large percentage on the CoH boards that makes it their mission to report such clones to the GM's for banning.

 

[Matlock]

I wonder if I made a Hulk and gave him Groucho glasses and a sombrero, if I'd be banned.

 

[borghe]

not to mention you notice it is only MARVEL pursuing this.

hmm.. marvel has an MMORPG coming out.. they are attacking an existing MMORPG that is direct competition.

This won't even make it to pre-trial.

 

[ohamsie]

That is really shitty of Marvel in my opinion.

 

[bishoptl]

Maybe Summers Eve should sue you for imitating one of their products so well.

:lol

 

[Willco]

Yeah, most clones get banned. And as a former CoH player myself, I can tell you that any self-respecting player makes an original character. They're so much funnier.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Well on the other side of it, what rights does Marvel have at all then? What stops any company from including a create a character that intentionally makes it easy to copy Marvel characters in any game at all for the sole purpose of getting around licensing the characters?

I mean if Activision were to release an unlicensed game called "Web Attack" which allowed you to make a Spider-Man replica, are they safe, as long as they count on users to put it together, and include generic alternatives for show? And if that's the case, can developers use that as an excuse to throw any charcter into any situation (like Link in Mortal Kombat)?

Not really taking one side or the other, just not sure where the line is.

I think the line in this case is something like this: if the game has a built-in character that copies an existing property the game maker should be sued unless they have licensed the character.

Should Discreet and Alias be sued because their 3D rendering packages allow you to create Spider-man look-alike characters ?

Are we going crazy ?

Say you have a service that allows users to transfer to each other home-made videos.

How can anyone hold you responsible if someone tapes himself dressed as Spider-man ?

 

[etiolate]

Maybe Summers Eve should sue you for imitating one of their products so well.

:lol

 

[Great Wasabi Man]

They saw this coming form a miles away...form day one on the board theyre was talk about marvle suing, yet all they did was ban people who used names. Oddly a clawsscrapper looks familiar. Very familiar. The hunched over posture when the claws are unshethed through the knucked (if your a guy character), the distinctive snikt sound, 3 triangular claws on each hand form the Jim Lee era, not to mention you can make you claws scrapper have regen powers...hmmm can't see why marvel would go after them?! such a shock!

It funny cause on the CoH soapbox known as a message board everyone figured (including the devs) the a suit would come from people coping names or anything remotley soundng like those names like SoupOrMon was baned on site. Even wiereder is the stupid ass radio stations encougaring players to make clones to win prizes.

 

[SaitoH]

It will be a sad day if Marvel wins this lawsuit.

 

[tralfazz]

To extrapolate on this frivilous suit, a former wrestler could sue THQ for the create a wrestler feature in the WWE or Michael Jordan could sue EA for their create a player. This is rediculous.

 

[IJoel]

Maybe Summers Eve should sue you for imitating one of their products so well.

:lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

How can you defend this shit? Pathetic.

Cryptic gave you the ability to make any kind of super hero you wanted (which in turn means that you could possibly replicate an existing super hero)... and Marvel should win this lawsuit?

Maybe Summers Eve should sue you for imitating one of their products so well.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Matlock]

Michael Jordan could sue EA for their create a player. This is a rediculous.

That'd be so sweet, if DM lead to the end of EA.

 

[borghe]

here are Peter David's (admittedly non-legal expert) thoughts on it:

http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/002216.html

One has to be aggressive in protecting one's trademarks, because--at least it's my understanding--failure to do so weakens them to the point of possible forfeit. That's why George Lucas had to go after the US gov't over "Star Wars" as applied to SDI, even though it was pretty much a lost cause from the get-go.

So if Marvel's legal beagles genuinely believe their trademark is possibly being infringed, they literally have no choice but to file suit. The outcome itself is almost secondary to taking the action. I do not believe for an instant the notion that they're doing so just to try and make money from settlements or wins. There are so many more effective and assured ways for Marvel to turn a buck than the wholly unpredictable option of litigation that it's just too silly a notion for me to accept.

 

[Father_Brain]

Can someone please explain this ManaByte/Summer's Eve joke?

 

[FoneBone]

Can someone please explain this ManaByte/Summer's Eve joke?

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jhtml?CATID=100224&id=prod355725