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Metal Gear Solid:Twin Snakes Depreciation Thread

M

mrkgoo

Member
Ok, so for some background history to my involvement in the MGS series:

I had no PS1, so I never really played MGS, the supposed 'system-seller-best-game-ever-made-ever-ever' game for this system, duking it out for GotY on release of Loz:Toot. I did, however, rent it out (along wiht Res Evil2) at one stage to experience it. Even then I thought it was high in production value (and even in experience value), but low in gameplay. Dialogue was good, but overthetop cheeseyness (which is fine by me, if it's the right game to do so). Only played a bit, thoguh - maybe the first third.

Fast forward, I buy MGS:2, based on the praise of the series, but also this title in particular - you know, to broaden my horizons. Once again, I get the same opinions - great production, presentation, gameplay elements, and even experience, but the game itself is too stop-start, too focused on trial-and-error (I know most gameas are in a way, but MGS seems to be in a bad way), and I seem to be fighting the control system far too often. And the fact you watch and listen more than you play (it seems) gets on my nerves.

I only play MGS2 halfway before I decide I've had enough.

Fast forward again, and Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes comes out, complete with deriding of the quality of the game compared to the original. I decide to give it another go, seeing as I may change my mind, and also because it gives me incentive to play through 2 properly, knowning the full story (or as full as you get in MGS).

I have fun, I don't see the problem with anything, and I finally 'get' the game - stealth, immersion, and the whole 'breaking down the fourth wall' parts of the game.

I replay MGS:2 - and I understand where the hate for MGS:TTS comes from - MGS:2 seems far superior technically (although I really like the cutscenes in MGS:TTS).


TODAY: After describing the game to a friend, he plays through the enitre Twin SNakes on very easy to experience the story, even though it's in a tensionless environment, so the 'spirit' of the game is lost.

And Dear God, what a feat. Just watching the game run-through I see again why I never fully liked it. The controls are solid enough, but never perfect - the way the cameraswitches, but the controls don't, went you flatten a gainst a wall is mind-boggling. Holding down 'Z' to target is weak (I don't mind the Z-button, but not for holding down). And the ridiculous nature of the game was simply too much to bear. The codec conversations are boring, and never serve to be immersive (who in their right mind talks in their head IN THE MIDDLE OF A PERILOUS SITUATION). I got annoyed at the Colonel talking about 'pressing the action button', and other such instances. And who's brilliant idea was it to allow you to skip the conversations by pressing a- only to never be able to hear them again, or at least read through them at your pace? Not to mention Snake's stupid always-responding-with-repeated-question ("You have to get the passcard. "Passcard?". "It's a nuclear weapon." "Nuclear weapon?". "Go to the communication tower." "Communication tower?").

Ok, so it was late, and we were trying to push through quickly, so maybe we were extra grumpy, but two incidents stick out in my mind as being extremely aggravating:

1) Whose genius idea was it to make the final card a three for one card, created for the SOLE purpose of making you backtrack two more times? You know the bit, the one with the cold-heat card. It seemed utterly pointless, and stands out as one of the WORST gaming moments in history. What exactly is the point of sendign you back through multple loading areas, backthrough a lift you can't even skip, where you have to stand and watch snake ride the lift...TWICE...to reach an area where you have to stand still for a few mintues...and repeat all again? I mean, sure many games have their share of backtracking, but at least you do things, or discover new paths or DO something when you get back. But standing around? I am utterly boggled by this so-called 'puzzle'.

2) the ending - yeah, it was 4am by the time we reached the final boss - and just after 5am when the credits were rolling. The ending sequence is far too long. Cutscene after cutscene of pseudo-philosophical drivel, written to make people who never ever read a decent book feel smart. It always felt like they were trying too hard. To it's credit, I suppose, though, that kind of person is me, but I still didn't appreciate it.

It all makes me wonder and think - is MGS 1 on PS1 (since most swear by that more) any different? How were cutscenes handled on that? Is the dialogue any different? I did finish MGS2, and that game had a pretty crazy storyline too, but I don't remember it being as stupid, but definitely more crazy and 'out there' - and I'm DEFINiITELY not playing it again to find out. These stories are so over-the-top, I simply forget them - didn't even remember half the ending of MGS1.

Lastly, should I get MGS3?

Ok, end rant.
 
Here we go again!

Im sick of talking about Twin Snakes, but yeah get MGS3. You may want to wait for Subsistence come out though, especially if it's $29.99 (current price on Ebgames/Gamestop)

And just in case anyone wants to know, MGS1 > Twin Snakes
 
Himuro said:
The gameplay was broke completely. How did it do anything better than the original? The music was way better in MGS1, ditto to the voice acting, cutscene direcion, and gameplay.
Click to expand...

Nothing was broken, you are just making excuses.
 
Hop in the Wayback Machine...

Me when Twin Snakes came out said:
A few weeks back I purchased Twin Snakes, beat it in 48 hours, then sold it back to Wanpaku for 800 yen less than I had bought it. That’s your capsule review: well worth playing, not worth owning.

Never has a good game been so disappointing. Twin Snakes should have been the new, definitive version of Metal Gear Solid, a reimagining of a classic that supercedes and deprecates the original. Instead, it’s a game better in some ways, but worse in others; difficult to choose, when the choice should have been blindingly obvious.

The original Metal Gear Solid, while not perfect, was perfectly cohesive. The gameplay, the characters, the cinemas, the voice acting, the easter eggs, even the codec sequences - they all worked together to realize Kojima’s vision. The game is tight, interconnected, and solid (no pun etc.) in a way few games since have matched.

Twin Snakes, in contrast, is a Frankenstein’s monster of a game. The gameplay is now on par with MGS2, but the level designs and enemy placements still hail from MGS1. This makes the new abilities either useless (hanging from rails) or game-breakingly useful (first-person head sniping). The graphical quality veers wildly from sub-MGS1 to supra-MGS3. The new voice acting and music are both inferior to the original’s.

The new cutscenes, while fun to watch, severely undermine the story. Snake is a badass because, like Batman, he’s an ordinary man doing extraordinary things. He’s not a superhero, he’s just super tough. In the original, when Snake casually mentions, “Oh, I had to take out that helicopter,” we laugh at his nonchalance because we know how difficult it actually was to take that helicopter down. When Snake repeats that line in Twin Snakes, we think, “well, you just dropped into bullet time, twisted your way past a few dozen machine gun rounds, and skipped your way across the top of a barrage of heat-seeking missiles. I would certainly hope you took out the helicopter.” Snake has become Neo from the Matrix sequels; worse, he’s only facing real-world level threats. It’s like watching Gary Kasparov decimate the middle school chess club; impressive on one level, but sort of boring and embarassing for everyone involved on another.

The game lacks the “polish” found in MGS1 and MGS2. The fight with Ninja doesn’t have any papers flying around. The ice cubes in MGS2 bounce around with real physics, but firing at Twin Snakes’ GameCube just runs a canned animation loop. Screens shatter in preset patterns, not dynamically. These things may seem small, but as Michaelangelo observed: “Trifles make perfection, and perfection is no trifle.” Kojima is obsessive-compulsive about trifles, and that passion elevates his games to the next level. Silicon Knights is a creative company, and I would have loved to have seen their own passionate reinterpretation of the Metal Gear franchise. Instead, they churned out a bad cover version: 90% the same, 90% as good, and 0% as necessary.

Despite my lengthy protestations, Twin Snakes is a good game. But the original is a great one - and the next time I want some Tactical Espionage Action, the original is what I’ll play.
Click to expand...
 
mrkgoo said:
It all makes me wonder and think - is MGS 1 on PS1 (since most swear by that more) any different? How were cutscenes handled on that? Is the dialogue any different? I did finish MGS2, and that game had a pretty crazy storyline too, but I don't remember it being as stupid, but definitely more crazy and 'out there' - and I'm DEFINiITELY not playing it again to find out. These stories are so over-the-top, I simply forget them - didn't even remember half the ending of MGS1.
Click to expand...

The cutscenes are handeled much better in the PSone version. They aren't nearly as over the top as what you see in Twin Snakes. Dialogue is the same, but the voice acting is much better.

mrkgoo said:
Lastly, should I get MGS3?
Click to expand...

Yes, but what till Subsistence.
 
If you didn't like MGS1 or MGS2 at all...dunno if you should try MGS3. :P

Uh Wario, he probably means it took him 2 days to beat it.
 
The best part was the inclusion of the Hot/Cold pipes in the Metal Gear room, thank fuck Silicon Knights is there to fix what's broken. Backtracking is the worst thing imaginable, and Twin Snakes neatly eliminates that.
 
demi said:
The best part was the inclusion of the Hot/Cold pipes in the Metal Gear room, thank fuck Silicon Knights is there to fix what's broken. Backtracking is the worst thing imaginable, and Twin Snakes neatly eliminates that.
Click to expand...
wait... hot/cold pipes in the Metal Gear room!? You mean I DIDN'T have to do that bullshit backtracking? OMG. Oh well, not like it took more than half an hour.
 
Wario64 said:
Here we go again!

Im sick of talking about Twin Snakes, but yeah get MGS3. You may want to wait for Subsistence come out though, especially if it's $29.99 (current price on Ebgames/Gamestop)

And just in case anyone wants to know, MGS1 > Twin Snakes
Click to expand...


Yah, I know - however, it seems to be the norm to revive old discussions for no reason. I just wanted to vent, because, God, I'm tired after staying up all night to play a game again that I never fully enjoyed in the first place.

Funny, because my memory of it must have been repressed - I thought it wasn't so bad after going through it the first time. Hell, I even thought the graphics were pretty good. But sitting through it all again just gave me flashbacks. You know, the roll up in a foetal position ones.
 
MGS3 is superior to the other two in every possible facet except camera, IMO. I love the series, and was disappointed by Twin Snakes as well.

You're doing yourself a great disservice by skipping MGS3, please either buy it now for cheap or wait a little bit and get Subsistence (new camera + online multiplayer + MG + MG2). It's a great gaming experience, and has a phenomenal story (one that's easily understandable compared to MGS2).
 
@JackFrost
Your complaints pretty much hold for the PS1 version, too. Cutscenes are different in Twin Snakes (more over the top) and you don't have first person view in the original, but otherwise it should be the same.

I saw those problems as well but I was pretty much ok with them. The "push action button" feature I found actually nice. I like tutorial stuff.

Storywise Snake Eater is easily the best of the three, although still a little MGSish. But it has longer playtime, better overall graphics, etc. And the title song rocks. Get it with substinence. (Controls are the same as in MGS2, sorry).
 
Good game, as a Metal Gear Solid fan, it's a keeper, but JackFrost2012's review is pretty dead on, especially with using the heliocopter example explaining what was lost in the the transition in how Twin Snakes handled it's source material.
 
Twin Snakes did have a toggle option for first person view so you don't have to hold the Z button down. Maybe I missed something, but does MGS3 have an option to toggle for first person view, or not? I like the toggle option more than holding the button down.
 
Twin Snakes was a rushed, half-hearted game that could have been so much more. I was so looking forward to that game, but I was really let down. MGS1 > Twin Snakes.
 
OpinionatedCyborg said:
wait... hot/cold pipes in the Metal Gear room!? You mean I DIDN'T have to do that bullshit backtracking? OMG. Oh well, not like it took more than half an hour.
Click to expand...

They were in a hidden place, and quite frankly I wouldn't have found it if I didnt check Gamefaqs. I wished they would add more stuff like that though. Extra rooms and stuff....but I guess Konami didn't want them to change too much of the game since there's hardly any extras to be found. You don't even get any bonuses for getting all dog tags, WTF is that bullshit

Friggin Dyack is a liar. Bunch of extra stuff? Sorry, Mario and Yoshi don't count
 
Some of us never owned a PSOne, so some of us enjoyed Twin Snakes.

And for the record,
I thought the bullet-time over-the-top stunts were awesome.
 
Danthrax said:
Some of us never owned a PSOne, so some of us enjoyed Twin Snakes.

And for the record,
I thought the bullet-time over-the-top stunts were awesome.
Click to expand...

You make Ohio proud.

But UT > BG.
 
TTS vs MGS

GAMEPLAY
They added MGS2 gameplay elements and kept the level design of MGS1. The gameplay of TTS was completely unbalanced even though you could do more than you could in MGS.
MGS +1

GRAPHICS
What do you expect? The games came out six years apart.
TTS +1

MUSIC/VOICE ACTING
Preference.

CUTSCENES
What the fuck?
MGS +1
 
demi said:
The best part was the inclusion of the Hot/Cold pipes in the Metal Gear room, thank fuck Silicon Knights is there to fix what's broken. Backtracking is the worst thing imaginable, and Twin Snakes neatly eliminates that.
Click to expand...

Holy crap.

You know, even on this so-called second play thourgh, I once again made the same mistake of traversing back to get teh cold, traversing back to get teh warm, making it back and realising it had only returned to room temperature.

I feel like such a scrub.

Just on a side note, I was revisiting all sorts of 'old' games while my friend was here:

MGS:TTS - as above - also realised graphics have improved sicne then. At the time I thought they were great, and thought he animation is awesome, the rest of it isn't so impressive in light of Res Evil 4.

Shenmue (DC): Obviously aged, but still looks remarkable - and the concept is very unique - a blend of adventure, sims, rpg, fighting. Voice acting has got to be the funniest -for-the-wrong-reasons I ahve encoutnered in a video game.

Grandia II (DC): Grahpics still preety great - framerate seems atrocious though. At least somekind of flickering was bothering.

Soul Calibur (DC): The increase in SC2 becomes extremely apprent, but it's still jaw-dropping when I consider I was playing Mojora's mask at about the same time. Teh exhibtion mode seems more impressive han SC2 (maybe the camera angles).

Advance Wars2 (GBA): played multiplayer on one screen, two controllers on the GB-player. OMG-level awesomeness.
 
It's the same game as the original just with better gameplay.

The downside to MGS:TT is the crappy cut scenes they put in. They were just ridiculously dumb.

Overall I enjoyed it more than the originals. The graphics were also better than MGS 2's.
 
JackFrost2012 said:
Hop in the Wayback Machine...
Click to expand...

Cool - that's very welll expressed. I can see what you mean. Still, I enjoyed the over-the-top cutscenes, or at elast didn't mind them. Of course, since MGS:TTS was my first fully-completed MGS, imy impression of Snake must differ to others (on my first time through MGS2- I never played the tanker, seeing as I selected "never played MGS1" - and I never minded Raiden).

On that note, My friend went and bought a second-hand copy of MGS2 - hopefully he'll play it one more than easy to get the full spirit of the game. Funny, as he paid for it, the game clerk said, " Oh have you played this one before? It's actually really cool. You do know you play most of it as..." -I could nearly have slapped him, but he did catch himself before he went to far.
 
mrkgoo said:
Ok, so for some background history to my involvement in the MGS series:

I had no PS1, so I never really played MGS, the supposed 'system-seller-best-game-ever-made-ever-ever' game for this system, duking it out for GotY on release of Loz:Toot. I did, however, rent it out (along wiht Res Evil2) at one stage to experience it. Even then I thought it was high in production value (and even in experience value), but low in gameplay. Dialogue was good, but overthetop cheeseyness (which is fine by me, if it's the right game to do so). Only played a bit, thoguh - maybe the first third.

Fast forward, I buy MGS:2, based on the praise of the series, but also this title in particular - you know, to broaden my horizons. Once again, I get the same opinions - great production, presentation, gameplay elements, and even experience, but the game itself is too stop-start, too focused on trial-and-error (I know most gameas are in a way, but MGS seems to be in a bad way), and I seem to be fighting the control system far too often. And the fact you watch and listen more than you play (it seems) gets on my nerves.

I only play MGS2 halfway before I decide I've had enough.

Fast forward again, and Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes comes out, complete with deriding of the quality of the game compared to the original. I decide to give it another go, seeing as I may change my mind, and also because it gives me incentive to play through 2 properly, knowning the full story (or as full as you get in MGS).

I have fun, I don't see the problem with anything, and I finally 'get' the game - stealth, immersion, and the whole 'breaking down the fourth wall' parts of the game.

I replay MGS:2 - and I understand where the hate for MGS:TTS comes from - MGS:2 seems far superior technically (although I really like the cutscenes in MGS:TTS).


TODAY: After describing the game to a friend, he plays through the enitre Twin SNakes on very easy to experience the story, even though it's in a tensionless environment, so the 'spirit' of the game is lost.

And Dear God, what a feat. Just watching the game run-through I see again why I never fully liked it. The controls are solid enough, but never perfect - the way the cameraswitches, but the controls don't, went you flatten a gainst a wall is mind-boggling. Holding down 'Z' to target is weak (I don't mind the Z-button, but not for holding down). And the ridiculous nature of the game was simply too much to bear. The codec conversations are boring, and never serve to be immersive (who in their right mind talks in their head IN THE MIDDLE OF A PERILOUS SITUATION). I got annoyed at the Colonel talking about 'pressing the action button', and other such instances. And who's brilliant idea was it to allow you to skip the conversations by pressing a- only to never be able to hear them again, or at least read through them at your pace? Not to mention Snake's stupid always-responding-with-repeated-question ("You have to get the passcard. "Passcard?". "It's a nuclear weapon." "Nuclear weapon?". "Go to the communication tower." "Communication tower?").

Ok, so it was late, and we were trying to push through quickly, so maybe we were extra grumpy, but two incidents stick out in my mind as being extremely aggravating:

1) Whose genius idea was it to make the final card a three for one card, created for the SOLE purpose of making you backtrack two more times? You know the bit, the one with the cold-heat card. It seemed utterly pointless, and stands out as one of the WORST gaming moments in history. What exactly is the point of sendign you back through multple loading areas, backthrough a lift you can't even skip, where you have to stand and watch snake ride the lift...TWICE...to reach an area where you have to stand still for a few mintues...and repeat all again? I mean, sure many games have their share of backtracking, but at least you do things, or discover new paths or DO something when you get back. But standing around? I am utterly boggled by this so-called 'puzzle'.

2) the ending - yeah, it was 4am by the time we reached the final boss - and just after 5am when the credits were rolling. The ending sequence is far too long. Cutscene after cutscene of pseudo-philosophical drivel, written to make people who never ever read a decent book feel smart. It always felt like they were trying too hard. To it's credit, I suppose, though, that kind of person is me, but I still didn't appreciate it.

It all makes me wonder and think - is MGS 1 on PS1 (since most swear by that more) any different? How were cutscenes handled on that? Is the dialogue any different? I did finish MGS2, and that game had a pretty crazy storyline too, but I don't remember it being as stupid, but definitely more crazy and 'out there' - and I'm DEFINiITELY not playing it again to find out. These stories are so over-the-top, I simply forget them - didn't even remember half the ending of MGS1.

Lastly, should I get MGS3?

Ok, end rant.
Click to expand...


What does it matter whether people get their philosophical drivel from a book or a video game?

/devil's advocate
 
Joester said:
It's the same game as the original just with better gameplay.

The downside to MGS:TT is the crappy cut scenes they put in. They were just ridiculously dumb.

Overall I enjoyed it more than the originals. The graphics were also better than MGS 2's.
Click to expand...

After playign through MGS2 AFTER MGS:TTS, I thought MGS2 was better overall. It seemed less dithered and 'muddy'. Some of the character models put question marks over my head. But then, this is Silicon Knights, so I guess that's not suprising.
 
Belfast said:
What does it matter whether people get their philosophical drivel from a book or a video game?

/devil's advocate
Click to expand...


It doesn't. My point was that many people probably thought it was a mind blowing affair, when really, it was more like a typical manga-style science-fiction, wrapped up in a real-world blanket. The story was actually pretty poor to me (and I don't even read that much, nor watch much anime), though I admit the execution was excellent.
 
The people that liked TTS are Ninty fans, and they like it for the same reason they like Tales of Symphonia.....because it's on a Nintendo system
 
Tamashii Sensei said:
Could you possibly explain why you think that? Or are you simply going to post that and not explain at all why?
Click to expand...

Eh, I rather just let it go. If a person gets to the point of hating an entire series than there is probably no convincing otherwise and we probably just end up in circles of argumentive rhetoric.
 
Wafflecopter said:
The people that liked TTS are Ninty fans, and they like it for the same reason they like Tales of Symphonia.....because it's on a Nintendo system
Click to expand...

I liked it because I had a chance to play it on a system I own. I'm sure PS2 owners feel the same way about Resi 4.

demi said:
You make Ohio proud.

But UT > BG.
Click to expand...

Har har har, you could derail a whole thread with talk like that.
 
koam said:
The game rocks. This thread sucks.
Click to expand...

This man wins. Original poster loses.

Twin Snakes let me relive a great game all over in a new way.
And yes, baby Jesus wants you to buy MGS3. And if you make a depreciation thread about that I will mentally will anal rape on you I swear.
 
Himuro said:
Noone appreciated MGS:TTS if they've played the original. It is shit.
Click to expand...
You speaking for all of us tiger? I played the hell out of MGS, but prefer Twin Snakes thanks to its production value and MGS2-gameplay additions. Notice how I said "I prefer" and not "It's a GOOD game".
 
Wafflecopter said:
The people that liked TTS are Ninty fans, and they like it for the same reason they like Tales of Symphonia.....because it's on a Nintendo system
Click to expand...

Actually, I have a huge bias towards Nintendo - and I wanted to liek TTS more, but in the end, I had to give credit to where it was due - MGS:TTS was not as good as MGS2.

However, I never had the enthusiasm to finish MGS2, without having played through TTS first.
 
mrkgoo said:
Actually, I have a huge bias towards Nintendo - and I wanted to liek TTS more, but in the end, I had to give credit to where it was due - MGS:TTS was not as good as MGS2.
Click to expand...

I would concede that. Its not as good as MGS2 (gameplay wise... the original MGS story still rules) and nowhere near as good as MGS3 (best in the series, buy it now)

.. but you really didn't like MGS TTS? :(
 
The cutscenes are handeled much better in the PSone version.
Click to expand...

Agree. TTS was one of the few games in recent memory I can remember that made me actively angry at the cutscenes - I kept expecting a Mighty Morphin' Power Ranger to jump out at any second and coat the missile that Snake kicks out of the air with delicious strawberry icing moments before impact, and have that missile fly into the mouth of an unsuspecting enemy who would congratulate snake on his happy lucky icing missile. The gameplay was good, the cutscenes nearly ruined the experience for me.

I enjoyed MGS2 a lot more than TTS.
 
radioheadrule83 said:
I would concede that. Its not as good as MGS2 (gameplay wise... the original MGS story still rules) and nowhere near as good as MGS3 (best in the series, buy it now)

.. but you really didn't like MGS TTS? :(
Click to expand...

Well, maybe not so much dislike as in [i[hate[/i], but mroe dislike as in, well, just not loving the game. It definitely has its moments...moments that made me smile and make me remember why I like video games, but as things turn out, there are more moments of sheer frustration that overshadows those.

I still played through it...and I will keep it, because I like to hold onto it, because it's kind of a milestone in Nintendo history (Nintendo, MGS??!?!), and even something I'd have to recommend to others, but it's not for me.
 
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