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[Guy LeDouche]

warning - spoilers in this thread regarding MGS1, MGS2 and MGS3, with basic story discussion of MG1 & MG2. Don't worry about spoiler tags. If you don't want to accidently read details of MGS3 (the best of the series, imo) because you are waiting for Subsistence, proceed with caution. I don't want to say "get out" because there are 4 other games that deserve serious discussion.

First off, here is the best, most comprehensive Metal Gear plot summary/analysis that I can find:

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/metal_gear_solid_13_plot_char.txt

I read the entire thing in the course of a couple hours and it really helped me put some of the cause & effect events together.

I'm gay for the Metal Gear franchise. Criticisms are fine, I have a few of my own, but if you are here to just troll and say Splinter Cell is better, lol snake is old in MGS4 lol, or whatever other oh-so-whitty joke you want to recycle, here is not the place. Go start a "MGS is for gay people who like to play gay games gay gay" for all I care, I'll stay out. This thread is for some serious storyline discussion/analysis.

Yes, I know some of the subplots are odd at times (mostly in MGS2), but the overarching storyline, branching chronologically from MGS3, through MG1, MG2, MGS1 and then MGS2 is unparalleled in the history of videogames, imo, and I think Snake Eater could be made almost directly to a movie and would be better than 90% of the drivel currently being green-lighted by Hollywood. The story of MGS4 is more attractive to me right now than the graphics - I want to see what happens to Solid Snake and the Patriots!

Quick background:
I played the NES port of Metal Gear as a young lad and enjoyed it despite not understanding the storyline at the time. MGS1 was one of the first PS1 games I remember enjoying, and boy was it a good one. The "... Mr. President" thing sent me into a emotional tailspin for days (hey, I was only like 12 or 13). MGS2 was a headtrip, but I loved it anyway. I could have done without the "Otacon slept with his step-mom" subplot and some of the Jack/Rose codec rambling, but overall it was a showpiece of the PS2 and still is among the best on the system. MGS3 is my personal Game of the Generation. Many around GAF share my feelings. I thought of myself a much more mature gamer before I started MGS3, but damn the ending sent me over the edge, much more so than the relatively tame MGS1 ending. I even got choked up at the gravesite scene.

Obviously, my #1 next-gen priority is Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots. We have all seen the TGS trailer and know how amazing the graphics are (and so early in development, with ~1 year left, according to Kojima at TGS), but like I said, I'm actually more interested in seeing how everything comes together.

I'm eagerly looking forward to Subsistence, even though I've beaten MGS3 a couple times already and am currently bouncing between MGS1, 2 and 3. Being able to play officially translated versions of Metal Gear 1 & 2 will be great. While many seem to dismiss them, both (especially MG2) have alot of great story developments. I'd love to see a Metal Gear Liquid, or a Metal Gear Solidus, as the back-stories are definately worth persuing, in my opinion.

I have a bunch of questions, but I'll start with my main one - What is the deal with the Patriots by the end of MGS2? The gamefaqs link has some ideas, but even he is unsure (as Kojima really hasn't made it clear). From MGS3, we know how the Philosophers/Patriots came about, but it seems that now that the Wisemen are long dead and the 3 factions have splintered apart, "The Patriots" now takes the form of an AI construct, which the author of the gamefaqs summary seems to feel is now a guideline, but is it? Are "The Patriots" still a real group of people, just a decision-making AI (although insanely complex), or somewhere in the middle?


One last quick thing - Revolver Ocelot is the greatest antagonist in gaming. No one but the biological son of the Boss could be worthy of being Snake's nemesis (whether Naked or Solid).

e: I know we've had all sorts of MGS/MGS4 threads, but I searched and couldn't find anything related to the overarching story, which is obviously the focus of this thread. Any questions about the story in any of the titles are welcome here.

 

[BigBoss]

The Patriots are definitely real people. I'm guessing they use AI's like GW and JFK(MGS2) to conceal their own identities. MGS3 made it quite clear that when one member of the Wisemen Committe dies a another steps up and takes his/her place. While the organization was once comprised of members from the Soviet Union, China, and the US, that is no longer the case. Thanks to Ocelot recovering the Philosopher's Legacy the US branch has its power restored and took total control while the other members from the USSR and China could do nothing but watch. The funny thing is that The Boss wanted to restore the Philosophers to their former glory(pre-WWII) and reunite the 3 countries members because of how corrupted they had become but she ended up making things even worse.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The Patriots are the biggest mystery because of MGS3 being a prequel. It's all just speculation but most believe that they're still alive in some form and not AI. Part of the story of MGS2 was how we passed our genes from generation to generation, and having the people that are the "Patriots" now be the offspring of the original in some way would play into the overall story.

The Patriots had Olga's baby taken, and that's where Snake is going next. That's still a mystery also, not just where they are but who exactly is the babys father. With it being left in the air like that makes it seem like it could be another plot point in the series.

 

[BigBoss]

Part of the story of MGS2 was how we passed our genes from generation to generation.

Wasn't MGS1 main message about how we pass our genes to future generations while MGS2 was about passing on memes?

 

[speedpop]

Not to be a party pooper or anything, but there was quite a decent sized thread about the entire Metal Gear storyline and discussion about it awhile ago. Shame is I wish I could be bothered to find it..

Regardless, on with more Kojima discussions!

 

[Juice]

The funny thing is that The Boss wanted to restore the Philosophers to their former glory(pre-WWII) and reunite the 3 countries members because of how corrupted they had become but she ended up making things even worse.

I don't know what you're smoking, but it's abundantly clear that America being in control of unilateral power is an absolutely GOOD thing.

[thread == derailed]

 

[SolidSnakex]

Wasn't MGS1 main message about how we pass our genes to future generations while MGS2 was about passing on memes?

I think it was, but part of it was still about passing our genes along. Solidus was a son of BB too and took down a similar path that he did when he was older, while Solid is more like the younger (and naive) BB. The MEME aspect dealt with Solidus and Raiden. They weren't biologically linked but Solidus did bring Raiden up to be cold hearted, but as he got older he went down his own path insted of the one Solidus wanted him to. MGS3 even dealt with the gene aspect because of

Spoiler

The Boss, Ocelot and The Sorrow.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

^^^ btw, you don't have to spoilerize stuff like that. We're all coming in with a base knowledge of all the MGS games. I didn't put every detail together myself, but that's kind of the point of the thread, we can all sort of put the puzzle together as a group, even though we're missing the pieces that will be revealed in 4.

The Patriots are definitely real people. I'm guessing they use AI's like GW and JFK(MGS2) to conceal their own identities. MGS3 made it quite clear that when one member of the Wisemen Committe dies a another steps up and takes his/her place. While the organization was once comprised of members from the Soviet Union, China, and the US, that is no longer the case. Thanks to Ocelot recovering the Philosopher's Legacy the US branch has its power restored and took total control while the other members from the USSR and China could do nothing but watch. The funny thing is that The Boss wanted to restore the Philosophers to their former glory(pre-WWII) and reunite the 3 countries members because of how corrupted they had become but she ended up making things even worse.

Interesting, but I already have more questions -

"While the organization was once comprised of members from the Soviet Union, China, and the US, that is no longer the case." Are you sure? Everything I have read seems to say that the Soviet Union, China and the US are still the three main factions of the original Philosophers. From the beginning, Ocelot is loyal to the US in everything he does and EVA (do we know her real name?) is either a decentant of a Philosopher (like the Boss, actually), or an actual Philosopher herself. We know she went to the Philosopher school, but I'm unclear how she ended up a double-agent for the Chinese. BTW - did anyone else freak out as much as I did during her final soliloquy where she revealed she'd been a Chinese agent all along?

Second point - "Thanks to Ocelot recovering the Philosopher's Legacy the US branch has its power restored and took total control while the other members from the USSR and China could do nothing but watch." I don't think this is necessarily true. Ocelot only recovered a part of the Legacy, the rest of which is still in the possession of the Ruskies. Aparently, China has been left out in the cold on this. Remember the microfilm EVA stole from Snake was a fake, so she got boned twice that night.


Third point - Damn, this storyline is good. I really want a Solidus backstory. Its funny to think HE was the good guy in MGS2, trying to bring down the Patriots once and for all (after failing to do so after Shadow Moses). Too bad he got played like a cheap fiddle by Ocelot and the Patriots.


Shit, another thing that's been itching at me. I think it will be most interesting to see how the Ocelot/Liquid's arm thing will be explained in MGS4. Think about it like this - Ocelot is the son of the Boss and the Sorrow, who had the ability to connect with the dead, so its entirely plausible in Kojima's world that Ocelot might have some of those abilities as well, at least to some degree. That would explain Ocelot's ability to channel Liquid Snake, unwillingly at times, it seems. Something that the Gamefaqs summary brought up would be the possibility that Liquid would have access to all of Ocelot's knowledge of the Patriots and that whole can of worms. Remember, if still alive, Liquid would probably be against Ocelot and the Patriots as his whole goal in MGS1 was to get a ton of cash and the remains of Big Boss to in effect re-establish Outer Heaven, Big Boss's home for discarded warriors.


you can probably see why I wanted to start this thread, there is a ton of shit I'd like to sort out, which probably won't happen until 4 comes out [img-sad panda]

 

[BigBoss]

"While the organization was once comprised of members from the Soviet Union, China, and the US, that is no longer the case." Are you sure? Everything I have read seems to say that the Soviet Union, China and the US are still the three main factions of the original Philosophers.

Whether the philosophers still exist in Russia or China in the present day MGS timeline is unknown but they have no real power anymore. Remember Ocelot had to recover the Legacy to revive the US branch of the Philosophers which would later be renamed to the Patriots ao without the huge pile of money that Ocelot recovered the other philosophers have no way of getting any power back.

From the beginning, Ocelot is loyal to the US in everything he does and EVA (do we know her real name?) is either a decentant of a Philosopher (like the Boss, actually), or an actual Philosopher herself.

We never learn her real name sadly. She seems to be an agent/spy that the Chinese Philosophers use, like the US branch uses Ocelot. I don't think she has any other connection to the agency.

We know she went to the Philosopher school, but I'm unclear how she ended up a double-agent for the Chinese.

Thats never explained but since the charm school she attended was run by joint US/Soviet/Chinese philosophers I imagine the Chinese government was picked her up after the war and took her back to China. I imagine the other countries did the same thing.

Second point - "Thanks to Ocelot recovering the Philosopher's Legacy the US branch has its power restored and took total control while the other members from the USSR and China could do nothing but watch." I don't think this is necessarily true. Ocelot only recovered a part of the Legacy, the rest of which is still in the possession of the Ruskies.

If you check the timeline at the end of MGS3 it says that the US government recovered the rest of the Legacy from the KGB in 1968. It could've been Ocelot, perhaps it was Big Boss, it'd make a great game.

Aparently, China has been left out in the cold on this. Remember the microfilm EVA stole from Snake was a fake, so she got boned twice that night.

Eva failed in getting the Legacy but she did bring back something of value to the Chinese government, the Shagohad data. In the timeline you can see that shortly after the mission the Chinese were able to develop their very first nuclear bomb so they weren't left entirely out in the cold even though I imagine the Chinese philosophers were quite pissed at Eva's failure.

 

[BobTheFork]

From the beginning, Ocelot is loyal to the US in everything he does and EVA (do we know her real name?) is either a decentant of a Philosopher (like the Boss, actually), or an actual Philosopher herself. We know she went to the Philosopher school, but I'm unclear how she ended up a double-agent for the Chinese. BTW - did anyone else freak out as much as I did during her final soliloquy where she revealed she'd been a Chinese agent all along?

Only played MGS3 thru once but I was under the impression that EVA and Adamska were the same, babies raised by foreign philosopher branches to be the best natural spies(EVA was a U.S. baby raised by the chinese to be a spy, Adamska was Russian and raised by the 'Patriots') Could be wrong but I think that's it.

Edit: oh didnt read that, someone already got that point

 

[SpokkX]

I have a question.. It´s been a while since i played MGS1 and MGS2..

did Ocelet ever "work" for big boss after MGS3?

I got the impression he did when I played MGS1 and 2 I think (long time ago)

but after playing part 3.. Big Boss and Ocelot seems to have been nothing but adversaries?

 

[BigBoss]

did Ocelet ever "work" for big boss after MGS3?

I got the impression he did when I played MGS1 and 2 I think (long time ago)

but after playing part 3.. Big Boss and Ocelot seems to have been nothing but adversaries?

I don't think Ocelot ever worked for Big Boss. While they may have been adversaries in MGS3(sort of) Kojima says in the cutscene commentary in the Extreme Package only released in Japan that Ocelot views Big Boss as a mentor. Big Boss told Ocelot to ditch the Makarov and get a revolver, hes constantly schooling Ocelot throughout the entire game, and Ocelot even mimics Big Boss' CQC moves. Kojima also says that when the Cold War is finished and Ocelot is no longer needed as a spy in the USSR, he requests to be transferred to FOXHOUND out of respect towards Big Boss, the founder of the group. By the time he gets to FOXHOUND Big Boss is already dead though and the group no longer resembles the old FOXHOUND.

 

[SpokkX]

ahh, that explains a lot.. Ocelot and the transfer to Foxhound after the cold war...

all this makes me want to play mgs2 again..

 

[Callo Merlose]

I thought Liquid's FoxHound was full of members that were once part of Big Boss' personal guard. At least, in various parts of the world. They each knew him personally, and Ocelot must've been in some sort of contact with Big Boss because he did notice a stark comparison between Solidus' and Big Boss.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I thought Liquid's FoxHound was full of members that were once part of Big Boss' personal guard. At least, in various parts of the world. They each knew him personally, and Ocelot must've been in some sort of contact with Big Boss because he did notice a stark comparison between Solidus' and Big Boss.

From what i've read, Ocelot was part of Outer Heaven (BB approached him after he was shot down in his helicopter) but left after Snake destroyed it. It does sound like Ocelot, he seems to always be close when someones plans backfire in their face.

 

[ourumov]

Just wanted to say that I am totally biased towards Big Boss plans...I'm sure his plans couldn't be worse than the Patriots ones...nor the shit Philantropy does. At the end of MGS3, it's clear why Big Boss acts that way in MG1/MG2...he has reasons for it.
Solid Snake/Otacon ideals are "too pure" for me...Someone has to pay for what happened.

Hideo Kojima should remade MG1/MG2 in 3D form/gameplay...Jejeje, Big Boss forever !!!

 

[Angst]

I just got to Federal Hall in MGS 2 and I have a couple of questions:

* Rose is part of the GW AI, but there's got to be a real Rose as well right?

* How does Otacon fit into all this? Is he just Snake's trusty helper?

* The Patriots - only AI or real? The AI states that "he"'s The Patriots, but couldn't that just be that the AI is megalomaniac and overestimates itself?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Just wanted to say that I am totally biased towards Big Boss plans...I'm sure his plans couldn't be worse than the Patriots ones...nor the shit Philantropy does. At the end of MGS3, it's clear why Big Boss acts that way in MG1/MG2...he has reasons for it.
Solid Snake/Otacon ideals are "too pure" for me...Someone has to pay for what happened.

While Solidus is closer to Big Boss, Solid is closer to being Naked Snake. He's what The bossw was talking about when she said that soldiers are only a tool of war. They don't make decisions they do what they're told to do. Big Boss plan went off track when he started building what seemed like a terrorist faction (and kidnapping people didn't help that). Snake and Ocelot are really the last people that could really take on that plan and make something out of it. Especially if they knew what happened to get the ball rolling.

The taint of disgrace will follow her to her grave. Future generations
will revile her. In America, as a despicable traitor with no sense of honor.
And in Russia, as a monster who unleashed a nuclear catastrophe. She will go
down in official history as a war criminal. And no one will ever understand
her. That... was her final mission. And like a true soldier, she saw it
through the end.

Rose is part of the GW AI, but there's got to be a real Rose as well right?

Yep you see her at the end. SHe's pregnant with Raiden's baby, and that's likely who he's holding in the artwork first released for MGS4.

How does Otacon fit into all this? Is he just Snake's trusty helper?

For the most part. He's like Solid's "Q".

The Patriots - only AI or real? The AI states that "he"'s The Patriots, but couldn't that just be that the AI is megalomaniac and overestimates itself?[/quote[

It's all speculation, but yah most people believe they're still real. The original group is dead, but there's another that took over for them.