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[ManaByte]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0317fox17.html

MEXICO CITY - Anti-immigrant sentiment appears to be growing in the United States, Mexican President Vicente Fox said Wednesday, and he urged U.S. officials to act quickly to control movements such as the 950-member-strong Minuteman Project on the Mexico-Arizona border.

Fox said he plans to push for U.S. immigration reform during a meeting with President Bush in Texas next week. He also said the two leaders, along with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin, likely will announce a plan to expand the scope of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Mexico's National Human Rights Commission recently issued a warning about several new grass-roots movements inspired by Arizona's Proposition 200. Other Mexican officials have cited the Minuteman Project, a plan by activists to patrol the border during April, as a sign of rising extremism.

There are signs of these kinds of problems present today, and (they are) progressing," Fox said during a news conference for foreign reporters. "We have to act quickly and on time to prevent these kinds of actions."

He said Mexico is watching the Minuteman Project carefully and will take action in U.S. courts or international tribunals if any of the activists break the law.

Hey, if people weren't breaking the law and sneaking across the border in the first place, and the US actually did something about the problem, there wouldn't be a need for the Minuteman Project.

It isn't an "Anti-immigrant sentiment" it's an Anti-illegal immigrant sentiment. Fuck.

 

[DarienA]

It's probably a bit of both. This is specifically aimed at illegals, but it's a sign of deeper anti-foreigner sentiment in the US.

Oh what else is new... this is the US... we hate people who don't live here as much as those who do.

 

[peedi]

I think latent racism lies at the heart of anti-immigration activism. Fox does have a point.

 

[ManaByte]

It's probably a bit of both. This is specifically aimed at illegals, but it's a sign of deeper anti-foreigner sentiment in the US.

What you say is the exact thing that the Illegal Immigrant Rights wackos say to try to defend people who sneak across the border illegally. If you knew anything about the Minutemen Project (or even read the full article at the link), you'd know that what the Minutemen are doing are patrolling the Arizona/Mexico border and reporting people sneaking across the border to Border Patrol, who is already stretched too thin to catch them on their own. There's talk of extending this to California in addition to the third wall they're putting up.

This statement by Fox is just him trying to defend the illegals crossing the border. Hell, there's even a quote from him where he wants the US to tear down the triple wall that's being built in San Diego. That's a great idea; they can just walk in without having to crawl under or over a fence!

I think latent racism lies at the heart of anti-immigration activism. Fox does have a point.

Try living in the border areas and then come back and try to defend illegals sneaking across the border.

Last week, this old man was hit by a large moving truck and got a mildly fractured skull. Since the driver of the moving truck was an illegal with no form of insurance, the old guy has to pay out of his pocket for all his medical expenses. There's another story recently where an illegal was working illegally in the US, got injured on the job, sued his employer for $4 million, and WON.

Oh what else is new... this is the US... we hate people who don't live here as much as those who do.

Again, this is just targeting the illegals who sneak across the border every day in Texas, Arizona, and California.

 

[AstroLad]

I for one am outraged that anyone would want to monitor the acts of a vigilante group.

And I'm from Arizona so don't give me this "you try to live by the border" shit.

 

[ManaByte]

I for one am outraged that anyone would want to monitor the acts of a vigilante group.

And I'm from Arizona so don't give me this "you try to live by the border" shit.

What part of the word illegal do you people not understand? They are not vigilantes. They are just notifying Border Patrol of illegals crossing the border illegally. If they are vigilantes, then everyone involved in a neighborhood watch program should be arrested as well.

 

[Boogie]

I think latent racism lies at the heart of anti-immigration activism.

Of course you do.

 

[AstroLad]

What part of the word illegal do you people not understand? They are not vigilantes. They are just notifying Border Patrol of illegals crossing the border illegally. If they are vigilantes, then everyone involved in a neighborhood watch program should be arrested as well.

I don't know; what part of the word 'vigilante' don't you understand?

vig·i·lan·te
1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2. A member of a vigilance committee.

Vigilance committee

n : a volunteer committee to maintain order where an efficient legal system does not exist

I don't feel like getting into stupid word games anyway, though I suppose I should have expected your taking offense to the word "vigilante," but the fact remains that even if that word hurts feelings, the Minutemen are putting themselves in a position where they could easily abuse their powers and some people are saying they're going to keep an eye on them, who knows if they actually will, but they're at least trying to motivate them to not overstep their bounds.

 

[peedi]

Of course you do.

What is that supposed to mean? It's not as if I view racism as the cause for every blemish on the facade of our country.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

some of my best pals were illegal immigrants if they were kept out of the country in the first place i wouldn't have those buddies, but i kind of see where people are coming from with this

p.s. i live in southern cali

 

[lexy]

I don't really understand the issue of illegal immigration from Mexico. Could someone tell me why there are companies in the US hiring illegal immigrants and why the government doesn't take action against these companies? If illegal immigrants couldn't get jobs in the US they wouldn't come to the US, right?

 

[ManaByte]

I don't feel like getting into stupid word games anyway, though I suppose I should have expected your taking offense to the word "vigilante," but the fact remains that even if that word hurts feelings, the Minutemen are putting themselves in a position where they could easily abuse their powers and some people are saying they're going to keep an eye on them, who knows if they actually will, but they're at least trying to motivate them to not overstep their bounds.

"We totally reject the idea of these migrant-hunting groups," Fox said. "We will use the law, international law and even U.S. law to make sure that these types of groups, which are a minority . . . will not have any opportunity to progress."

Fox doesn't want to keep an eye on them, he wants to stop them and for the US to tear down its border with Mexico.

"We are convinced that walls don't work. They should be torn down," he said. "No country that is proud of itself should build walls. No one can isolate himself these days."

What the FUCK is wrong with reporting a crime to the authorities? That's what these people are doing in April and everyone is throwing a fit that they are reporting illegals crossing the border to Border Patrol.

 

[ManaByte]

I don't really understand the issue of illegal immigration from Mexico. Could someone tell me why there are companies in the US hiring illegal immigrants and why the government doesn't take action against these companies? If illegal immigrants couldn't get jobs in the US they wouldn't come to the US, right?

That's exactly the problem. They are also coming to the US for free medical care.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

well loxy many times illegal immigrants have forged documents or things that matchup, but infact they are illegals. i dont know all the methods by which these workers are hired, but i will say one thing: cruel as it may sound the reason why my home owners association (which i am a part of) can afford upkeep of our garage and garden area is because of cheap mexican labor. my buddy had his floor redone because of cheap mexican labor.

i think some people have this weird vision of what illegal immigrants do here. as if they come into the country, TOOK UR JOBS!, and then live the good life. dude, no middle class citizen in CA is going to do the kind of shit jobs they are doing for the price they are doing them at. so you have these jack asses complaining that prices are too high in industry X, and the same jackasses want to keep immigrants out who are only going to come to this country and feed on the bottom of the barrel.

i'm not trying to talk shit on mexicans or any immigrants. the vast majority of my friends are mexican, i grew up in southern cal and thats what the environment was. there is definitely racism amongst people here, but it really makes no sense. people will find something to get up in arms about just for the sake of it, or because their life hasn't turned out as expected so they find a scapegoat.


p.s. but i do think something should be done about illegal immigration, i wasn't contesting that. all of my friends who were "illegal" are legal now and have been for quite sometime. one thing you will find about LA: it is already over populated as it is, we don't need people immigrating illegally here. however i feel like it's a race thing with a lot of anti-immigrant people, whether they say it or not (not accussing anyone in this thread of that, just what i see everyday)

 

[ManaByte]

I'm not even going to bother...

The fact that people can defend others breaking the law just boggles the mind.

 

[AstroLad]

Fox doesn't want to keep an eye on them, he wants to stop them and for the US to tear down its border with Mexico.



What the FUCK is wrong with reporting a crime to the authorities? That's what these people are doing in April and everyone is throwing a fit that they are reporting illegals crossing the border to Border Patrol.

I was referring to the statement which you bolded for some reason, "He said Mexico is watching the Minuteman Project carefully and will take action in U.S. courts or international tribunals if any of the activists break the law." If you have a problem with that, then you're the one "defending people breaking the law."

 

[ManaByte]

I was referring to the statement which you bolded for some reason, "He said Mexico is watching the Minuteman Project carefully and will take action in U.S. courts or international tribunals if any of the activists break the law." If you have a problem with that, then you're the one "defending people breaking the law."

Well, yea if they break the law they should be stopped. Last I checked, there was nothing wrong with reporting a crime, which is what they are doing.

And for the people calling them racists:

The MMProject has 40% participation from women and minorities.

The minority classifications follow:
32 Native American Indians (Apache, Cherokee, Comanche, Sioux, Blackfoot, and other tribes);
19 American Mexicans; 5 American Armenians; 5 American Russians; 1 American Lebanese; 1 American India (the continent); 1 Asian; 3 American Cubans; 3 American Africans.
In Addition:

5 WHEEL CHAIR BOUND PARAPLEGICS AND 7 AMPUTEES.

17 LEGAL immigrants from 7 countries.

 

[Doth Togo]

Of course you do.

:lol

 

[909er]

What is the number of illegals that come in to the US every year? I heard a million, of which only a 1/3 or less are caught.

I live in California where the huge bulk of them live. Those illegal immigrants affect my life alot. I pay more tax into social programs that don't go to tax paying citizens or legal immigrants. My university tuition keeps going up because our state government is bankrupt, again, alot of it due to illegal immigrants not paying into the system but taking out of it. Crime is up in LA because of the huge influx of illegal immigrants who come looking for jobs, but end up in gangs.

I could understand that plight of those people, but I can't condone illegal immigration. They are breaking the law.

And f*** the Mexican government. Mexicans look down on central Americans, and Mexico's southern border is sealed tight and armed. We should adopt the same damn immigration policy as Mexico, those hypocrites. Let's see how they like it.

 

[Pencil Boy]

The only "extremists" I care about are the ones who do funky tricks in a half-pipe! :lol

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I don't really understand the issue of illegal immigration from Mexico. Could someone tell me why there are companies in the US hiring illegal immigrants and why the government doesn't take action against these companies? If illegal immigrants couldn't get jobs in the US they wouldn't come to the US, right?

because the government is getting something out of it too. These are jobs that nobody else wants to do. If you got rid of all the illegals in California, the state's economy would take a massive hit.

 

[909er]

because the government is getting something out of it too. These are jobs that nobody else wants to do. If you got rid of all the illegals in California, the state's economy would take a massive hit.

Which is bullshit. People can garden they're own gardens. There will always be teens to work the stores, and there will always be people who need jobs and who will take what is available. And we won't have as much pollution, over population of inner cities, gangs in those inner cities, more tax money freed up, and more. Honestly, getting rid of illegals seems like a benefit to one who lives in this state, and really doesn't give a crap about who Wal Mart wants to hire.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Which is bullshit. People can garden they're own gardens. There will always be teens to work the stores, and there will always be people who need jobs and who will take what is available. And we won't have as much pollution, over population of inner cities, gangs in those inner cities, more tax money freed up, and more. Honestly, getting rid of illegals seems like a benefit to one who lives in this state, and really doesn't give a crap about who Wal Mart wants to hire.

how many people do you think are going to be lining up to pick fruit for 10 hours a day at less than $5 an hour in the hotass summer months? I think its a problem too, im just saying the reason you don't see and won't ever see swift action taken by the government regarding this issue is because you can't just snap your fingers and make it go away and expect everything to pick up right where it left off.

 

[909er]

how many people do you think are going to be lining up to pick fruit for 10 hours a day at less than $5 an hour in the hotass summer months? I think its a problem too, im just saying the reason you don't see and won't ever see swift action taken by the government regarding this issue is because you can't just snap your fingers and make it go away and expect everything to pick up right where it left off.

I know that. I also know that "the snap of a finger" won't get rid of 3 to 5 million people from California.

But in the end, Californians will adjust, and it will end up better.

 

[Nerevar]

Which is bullshit. People can garden they're own gardens. There will always be teens to work the stores, and there will always be people who need jobs and who will take what is available. And we won't have as much pollution, over population of inner cities, gangs in those inner cities, more tax money freed up, and more. Honestly, getting rid of illegals seems like a benefit to one who lives in this state, and really doesn't give a crap about who Wal Mart wants to hire.

are you serious? Do you really think there's a labor pool out there willing to do the work that illegal immigrants do across the country, for anything comparable to what illegal immigrants are paid?

 

[909er]

are you serious? Do you really think there's a labor pool out there willing to do the work that illegal immigrants do across the country, for anything comparable to what illegal immigrants are paid?

No, but then illegal immigrants are paid an illegal wage. Under $5 and hour is about $1.75 too little in California.

Look, I don't have solutions. The problem is way too big now. But there's gotta be a way to make it better in the future.

 

[levious]

Manabyte,

How come you can never talk about this issue without calling anyone disagreeing with you stupid? Some people that are quite intelligent really do support an open border policy, so what?

And given the recent history of the border, a group like this really should be monitored. I mean, illegals have been shot while swimming BACK across the border. You're a bit naive if you think groups like this are devoid of questionable motivations.

sidenote: Why name it Minuteman? I thought this thread was going to be about NASA.

 

[909er]

Manabyte,

How come you can never talk about this issue without calling anyone disagreeing with you stupid? Some people that are quite intelligent really do support an open border policy, so what?

And given the recent history of the border, a group like this really should be monitored. I mean, illegals have been shot while swimming BACK across the border. You're a bit naive if you think groups are devoid of questionable motivations.

I dont' get why anyone would have to resort to that to get back to Mexico. I mean, whenever I go to Tijuana, it's two revolving doors and my ID isn't even checked, except on a rare occasion.

 

[levious]

909er,

sorry for not being clear, I was referring to an incident where illegals were being chased off by a landowner. He apparently still felt his property rights were being threatened when they were back in the river, and shot some in the head.

 

[ManaByte]

How come you can never talk about this issue without calling anyone disagreeing with you stupid? Some people that are quite intelligent really do support an open border policy, so what?

The only people I ever see supporting illegal immigration are the brain-dead Illegal Immigrant rights wackos who are even more fucked in the head than PETA.

Look, open borders are fine if you come into the country legally. If you sneak in illegally you are breaking the law and as such are a criminal and deserve to be treated as such.

 

[ManaByte]

909er,

sorry for not being clear, I was referring to an incident where illegals were being chased off by a landowner. He apparently still felt his property rights were being threatened when they were back in the river, and shot some in the head.

Wasn't that in Texas? I don't think it matters if you are legal or illegally in this country. If you tresspass on someone's land in Texas you're bound to get shot.

 

[levious]

Oh yeah, he was acquitted. But like I said, they were already in the river swimming back. It was a horribly, laughable situation.

 

[Seth C]

Wasn't that in Texas? I don't think it matters if you are legal or illegally in this country. If you tresspass on someone's land in Texas you're bound to get shot.

Don't Mess With Texas.

 

[Kobun Heat]

The "jobs Americans won't do" argument is ridiculous.

If illegal immigrants are all sent home, toilets will get cleaned. Strawberries will get picked. Shit will get shoveled. The market will find a way.

Whether it's a) raising the wages for the job until you have people lining up to do it or b) investing in a more expensive but automated solution so you can eliminate the human element or c)raising the goddamned working conditions so the work is not demeaning or backbreaking. Illegal immigration is the problem here, not the solution.

 

[ManaByte]

If illegal immigrants are all sent home, toilets will get cleaned. Strawberries will get picked. Shit will get shoveled. The market will find a way.

See, there was a movement last year to start sending them home. Border Patrol got a small workforce boost and started rounding up illegals in LA. They put them in a truck and shipped them back to the border where they were sent home.

But, the illegal rights wackos threw a huge fit and protests calling it racial profiling and that US Border Patrol had no right to throw illegal immigrants out of the country as they had every right to be here and leech from the country. So, Border Patrol stopped sending them home.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The "jobs Americans won't do" argument is ridiculous.

If illegal immigrants are all sent home, toilets will get cleaned. Strawberries will get picked. Shit will get shoveled. The market will find a way.

Whether it's a) raising the wages for the job until you have people lining up to do it or b) investing in a more expensive but automated solution so you can eliminate the human element or c)raising the goddamned working conditions so the work is not demeaning or backbreaking. Illegal immigration is the problem here, not the solution.

This is true. Its funny though, how many americans who want the illegals gone will be the first to complain when they have to pay more for their strawberries at the grocery store. Don't get me wrong, i think SOMETHING needs to be done about this. Im not for giving all illegals drivers licenses or anything like that, but personally, i don't think anything will ever be done about it. Its gone too far already to go back.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Its gone too far already to go back.

So the worse a problem gets, the less we should bother doing about it?

 

[levious]

See, there was a movement last year to start sending them home. Border Patrol got a small workforce boost and started rounding up illegals in LA. They put them in a truck and shipped them back to the border where they were sent home.

But, the illegal rights wackos threw a huge fit and protests calling it racial profiling and that US Border Patrol had no right to throw illegal immigrants out of the country as they had every right to be here and leech from the country. So, Border Patrol stopped sending them home.

That was the fashionable/media buzz argument. The logical argument against it was that it was simply a stupid waste of money. It'd be like fixing a leak by first cleaning up the water. Focusing on the problem at the border is what needs to be done. If later after current problems are improved you still have resources to deal with illegals already here then fine.

 

[ShadowRed]

The "jobs Americans won't do" argument is ridiculous.

If illegal immigrants are all sent home, toilets will get cleaned. Strawberries will get picked. Shit will get shoveled. The market will find a way.

Whether it's a) raising the wages for the job until you have people lining up to do it or b) investing in a more expensive but automated solution so you can eliminate the human element or c)raising the goddamned working conditions so the work is not demeaning or backbreaking. Illegal immigration is the problem here, not the solution.

The economy would never stand 5 bucks a head for lettuce so that farmers can pay someone 5.50 to pick crops. The farmers are barely making it as it is now. If all the illegals disappeared farmers wouldn't be able to hire enough people at the minimum wage to pick all the crops. This would lead to not all the crops being picked which would lead to a shortage at the supermarket which with the added price of labor would case the price of fruits and vegetables to sky rocket. Likewise with the toilet cleaners. Their will be less of them and more work which will lead to dirtier toilets and cause more people to became sick which in turn will case the price of healthcare to increase more so than it already is.

 

[Kobun Heat]

levious: Yes, but 1) they're breaking the law so really it's the right thing to do anyway and 2) it does help things down at the border. This is because it sends a different message to would-be border jumpers, i.e., "If you do, we'll find you and send you right back." This would be in contrast to the current message we send them, which is the rough equivalent of "COME ON DOWN! YOU'RE THE NEXT CONTESTANT ON THE PRICE IS RIGHT!"

 

[Ninja Scooter]

levious: Yes, but 1) they're breaking the law so really it's the right thing to do anyway and 2) it does help things down at the border. This is because it sends a different message to would-be border jumpers, i.e., "If you do, we'll find you and send you right back." This would be in contrast to the current message we send them, which is the rough equivalent of "COME ON DOWN! YOU'RE THE NEXT CONTESTANT ON THE PRICE IS RIGHT!"

a majority of these people are willing to risk their life to get over here. People die trying to cross the border all the time. You think the threat of "sending them bacK" is going to scare any potential border jumpers? Hell, that threat is already there. Go to a group of illegal mexican immigrants and tell them the "migra" is coming and watch them scatter like cockroaches.

 

[levious]

Illegals get sent back all the time... I really don't think it sends any message. I think a stronger presence at the border sends much more of a message.

 

[ManaByte]

Go to a group of illegal mexican immigrants and tell them the "migra" is coming and watch them scatter like cockroaches.

:lol

I used to have a friend who would do that when driving by a field where illegals were picking strawberries.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Oh, I agree that a stronger presence at the border is best. I'm just saying it would indeed have some influence there.

Step one should indeed be to beef up border patrol and stop any new jumpers.

 

[ManaByte]

Oh, I agree that a stronger presence at the border is best. I'm just saying it would indeed have some influence there.

Step one should indeed be to beef up border patrol and stop any new jumpers.

Which is exactly what the Minuteman Project is helping to do in Arizona. The government won't put more eyes on the border, so volunteers are doing it to help notify the Border Patrol of jumpers.

 

[Crandle]

Would the people supporting stricter border controls also agree with an significant increase in legal immigrants (the U.S. currently accepts way less than most developed nations) and the goal of lowering more trade barriers? The former seems like it would be a good enough idea, but I couldn't advocate it without the latter policies as well. Streamlining the legal immigration process and freer trade would be key in helping keep prices down.

 

[Yamauchi]

Everyone knows that states that had more immigration during the 1990s witnessed rapidly expanding economies relative to those with low immigration. The reason being that more immigrants are of working age than the general population of a given area, and the US faces a manual labor shortage (this is the level below 'blue collar'). People who grow up in agricultural areas such as myself also know that the Mexicans aren't taking any jobs. During harvest season we would need at least 25 hired-hands. To break even for the next year you could only pay them $5.50 an hour, so out of those 25 we needed usually only 2-3 would be white (junior high/high school kids). The rest would be illegals from Mexico. This led the demographics of our particular area being about 60% white, 30% latino, 6% Native American, and 2% African American. It's weird how it's always the progressive city-minded folk that have so much racial tension.

Anyway, America's economy would simply turn into an anemic European-style economy if it didn't have so many immigrants. The birth rate among white and black Americans is as low as in European countries, and the only thing that stabalizes our workforce and birth rate are immigrants and Latin-American births. If the goal of these nationalist Americans is to mimic the depressing European economies, have at it.

 

[909er]

Would the people supporting stricter border controls also agree with an significant increase in legal immigrants (the U.S. currently accepts way less than most developed nations) and the goal of lowering more trade barriers? The former seems like it would be a good enough idea, but I couldn't advocate it without the latter policies as well. Streamlining the legal immigration process and freer trade would be key in helping keep prices down.

The US accepts far less? You do know that 10% of the ppl who live in the US aren't even American, right?

 

[909er]

Everyone knows that states that had more immigration during the 1990s witnessed rapidly expanding economies relative to those with low immigration. The reason being that more immigrants are of working age than the general population of a given area, and the US faces a manual labor shortage (this is the level below 'blue collar'). People who grow up in agricultural areas such as myself also know that the Mexicans aren't taking any jobs. During harvest season we would need at least 25 hired-hands. To break even for the next year you could only pay them $5.50 an hour, so out of those 25 we needed usually only 2-3 would be white (junior high/high school kids). The rest would be illegals from Mexico. This led the demographics of our particular area being about 60% white, 30% latino, 6% Native American, and 2% African American. It's weird how it's always the progressive city-minded folk that have so much racial tension.

Anyway, America's economy would simply turn into an anemic European-style economy if it didn't have so many immigrants. The birth rate among white and black Americans is as low as in European countries, and the only thing that stabalizes our workforce and birth rate are immigrants and Latin-American births. If the goal of these nationalist Americans is to mimic the depressing European economies, have at it.

You're also forgetting to mention a huge factor in the "depressing European economy" problem - socialism. They have alot of governments restricting work hours(I beleive France has mandated 35 hour work weeks and like a whole month off in August). That takes a huge toll on the amount of work that can done, and thus the amount of money said nation could make.

 

[Jonnyboy117]

There needs to be a greater presence of the Border Patrol, no doubt about it. That's a matter of national security. But the most effective way to reduce illegal immigration is to increase legal immigration. We need to make the process of entering the U.S. legally much easier than it is now. If poor Mexicans could fill out one or two pages and enter El Paso and other places with a brand new Social Security number and a work visa, they wouldn't be trying to smuggle themselves across the border at the risk of being arrested or even killed. These people are clearly going to come into the country anyway, and honestly, we have enough room for them. What we don't necessarily have is enough tax money to support all of them when they aren't paying taxes themselves, which is basically what's happening now with all the illegal immigrants. Sign them up for the same system the rest of us live by, and they are more than welcome to be here as far as I'm concerned. But right now, we aren't letting them do that.