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Minorities fighting for Axis Powers in WWII

snap

Banned
Right now, COD:WWII is running its PC Beta, and it's getting mauled through Steam Reviews, partially because people are complaining that you get to play as a black dude while on the Axis side, or some other racist nonsense. This isn't to say that there aren't genuine concerns about game mechanics or PC support or what have you, but I thought it'd be cool to bring up actual, historical context for this stuff, since not many seem to be actually aware of the facts.

During World War II, there were two theaters of war: European and the Pacific. In the European theater, it is well known that the British had many troops pulled from its colonies, whether pressed into service or volunteered. But what many don't know, is that the Germans also had their share of minorities fighting for their side. Probably the most well known are the soldiers of the Indische Legion.

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J16796%2C_Rommel_mit_Soldaten_der_Legion_%22Freies_Indien%22.jpg

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J16696%2C_Soldaten_der_Legion_%22Freies_Indien%22.jpg

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-263-1580-06%2C_Atlantikwall%2C_Soldat_der_Legion_%22Freies_Indien%22.jpg

Comprised of both Indian POWs captured from the British and Indian expats living in Germany at the time, these men were Indian nationalists who hoped that by helping the Germans win the war, they'd open the door to push the British out of India once and for all (the Indian National Congress, at this time the leading group pushing for Indian independence, had made a gambit at war's outbreak hoping that the British would agree to independence under the threat of civil unrest at an inopportune time and failed, resulting in their leadership being put under house arrest until the war ended*).

At around 2600 strong at its peak, this regiment saw action in France, had members parachuted into Iran to conduct sabotage, and fought in Italy before surrendering. There is some evidence that implies that the French Moroccan troops that captured them executed several of their members before they were surrendered to the British.

While the Indische Legion had a mixed religious composition of Sikh, Muslim and Hindu members, the 1st Croation were a majority Muslim force with some Catholic members.


This group was mostly deployed to deal with Partisan movements in the Croatian puppet state that the Nazis set up, but also saw action against the Red Army. They were known for their brutality towards Serbs and Jewish civilians. In fact, the reason this division even existed in the first place was due to rampant Anti-Semitism among the Muslim peoples of the region.

The last German led group I'll mention (there are many other foreign born German Waffen-SS elements I'm sure I'm neglecting to mention) is the Free Arab Legion

Black people fighting for the Germans who woulda thunk huh

This group formed for very similar reasons to the Indische Legion, they opposed colonial rule and hoped a German victory would give them independence. They were apparently ineffective; early on the Germans refused to let them take prayer breaks and as a result of high desertion they eventually backed away from that stance. Looks like they ended up spending most of the war hunting partisans in Greece.

As for the Pacific front, that would be an entire book by itself, as the Japanese were notorious for pressing men from conquered nations into battle under their banner. Probably the most notable group is this group of Korean soldiers:

They had been conscripted by the Japanese in the decades leading up to WWII, and in one of the conflicts between Japan and Russia in the 1930s, had been taken captive by the Soviets, who in turn used them on their front lines, only for them to be captured by the Germans once war broke out. They ended up in France, captured by Americans on D-Day.

The only other group I'd mention, for a specific reason I'll mention below, is the Indian National Army, who were an Indian force that fought for the Japanese, for similar reasons as the Indische Legion, and was formed mostly of POWs and expats living in Burma and present-day Malaysia. They're notable, as in their engagements in the Japanese campaign in Burma, they would face off against fellow Indians fighting for the British. While the conflict was between the Allies and the Axis, Indians would end up directly killing each other.

*In reference to Congress being put under house arrest during WWII, this directly lead to partition. Jinnah had fallen out of favor earlier on in the independence movement for opposing Gandhi (he viewed Gandhi's appeals as being too Hindu centered, something that he was afraid would lead to Hindu-first nationalism at the cost of Muslim rights, and he was absolutely right). However, once Congress was suppressed during WWII, he was given an opening by embracing a movement he had earlier dismissed--the creation of a Muslim-state that would be named Pakistan. It was pressure from him and threats of his followers creating violence that led to partition, even if he himself did not want a part of any state that defined itself by the religion of its marjority. In fact after Pakistan was secured, he hoped to create a state where any religion was welcome and had a seat at the table, but his followers did not necessarily agree and his sudden death provided the death stroke to his dream.
 

diaspora

Member
For additional context IIRC several famines in India occurred during and partly due to British colonial rule resulting in the deaths of millions.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Considering that Germany was at war with large colonial states like France and Britain, that their Aryan fanaticism was sometimes set aside for the sake of the war, that the economic prospects in the colonized world were dismal, and that colonized peoples had already experienced Hitlerian racism and genocidal violence wrought by these "good" imperial powers, it is understandable that some people whose existence defied Nazi racial conceptions would sign up to fight with the Axis powers. This was not a lot of people, and substantially more third-world individuals sacrificed their lives to fight for colonial governments who hated them. But yeah, this is a part of history and it's not exactly dishonest for Activision to include Indian and African Axis fighters.

Still, this really fucking weird. Why should multiculturalism be extended to fascist genocidaires? These Nazis didn't want to work with non-white or even non-German folks, but war always makes weird bedfellows. This is not a particularly significant aspect of WW2, and including it so prominently in a historical game has some bad implications. Because most players aren't aware of the context in which these non-European regiments fought with the Nazis, this kind of representation doesn't fight racism so much as it rehabilitates the image of national socialism.
 
Learned some new stuff here, though the basic premise for much of it - hope to gain the support of the victor for their own political goals - isn't too surprising. Pretty classic motivation really. See also: The Polish Legions under Napoleon.

Kinda makes me wanna see a work where an Indian Commonwealth troop comes across a member of the Indische Legion. Wonder what the perspectives would be like.
 

snap

Banned
Considering that Germany was at war with large colonial states like France and Britain, that their Aryan fanaticism was sometimes set aside for the sake of the war, that the economic prospects in the colonized world were dismal, and that colonized peoples had already experienced Hitlerian racism and genocidal violence wrought by these "good" imperial powers, it is understandable that some people whose existence defied Nazi racial conceptions would sign up to fight with the Axis powers. This was not a lot of people, and substantially more third-world individuals sacrificed their lives to fight for colonial governments who hated them. But yeah, this is a part of history and it's not exactly dishonest for Activision to include Indian and African Axis fighters.

Still, this really fucking weird. Why should multiculturalism be extended to fascist genocidaires? These Nazis didn't want to work with non-white or even non-German folks, but war always makes weird bedfellows. This is not a particularly significant aspect of WW2, and including it so prominently in a historical game has some bad implications. Because most players aren't aware of the context in which these non-European regiments fought with the Nazis, this kind of representation doesn't fight racism so much as it rehabilitates the image of national socialism.

fwiw, all of their customization stuff pretends you're allied 100% of the time. it's just whatever you choose roughly carries over to when you're axis, which happens because they didn't go full america's army for whatever reason.

Learned some new stuff here, though the basic premise for much of it - hope to gain the support of the victor for their own political goals - isn't too surprising. Pretty classic motivation really. See also: The Polish Legions under Napoleon.

Kinda makes me wanna see a work where an Indian Commonwealth troop comes across a member of the Indische Legion. Wonder what the perspectives would be like.

Indian POWs who refused to serve the Germans hated the ones who did with a passion.
 
India's efforts in the war were heavily fictionalized in the semi-infamous Bollywood film Gandhi to Hitler AKA Dear Friend Hitler. Its likely your only chance ever to see Hitler speak Hindi.

Gandhi_to_Hitler_Poster.jpg


weirdly enough, it didn't quite catch on, nor was it at all well received.
 
it's getting mauled through Steam Reviews, partially because people are complaining that you get to play as a black dude while on the Axis side

I think it being on the axis side has zero to do with why it's getting bombed on Steam reviews. That place is full of bigots who will go after anything that allows you to play a minority person, using whatever BS excuse they can conjure to make it sound like an authentic complaint. Allowing that blatant nonsense that anyone with half a brain can spot is one of my biggest issues with Steam and Valve as a company. But don't criticize it on gaming side, the defenders will proclaim it a benefit of the platform.
 
Considering that Germany was at war with large colonial states like France and Britain, that their Aryan fanaticism was sometimes set aside for the sake of the war, that the economic prospects in the colonized world were dismal, and that colonized peoples had already experienced Hitlerian racism and genocidal violence wrought by these "good" imperial powers, it is understandable that some people whose existence defied Nazi racial conceptions would sign up to fight with the Axis powers. This was not a lot of people, and substantially more third-world individuals sacrificed their lives to fight for colonial governments who hated them. But yeah, this is a part of history and it's not exactly dishonest for Activision to include Indian and African Axis fighters.

Still, this really fucking weird. Why should multiculturalism be extended to fascist genocidaires? These Nazis didn't want to work with non-white or even non-German folks, but war always makes weird bedfellows. This is not a particularly significant aspect of WW2, and including it so prominently in a historical game has some bad implications. Because most players aren't aware of the context in which these non-European regiments fought with the Nazis, this kind of representation doesn't fight racism so much as it rehabilitates the image of national socialism.

The Axis-colonials all fucked up. The Nazis would never give them anything if they won while Britain would go on to free nearly all of its subjects after the war.

Also Britain's colonial armies were 90%+ volunteer. The volunteer army raised in and to defend British India is famous for being among the largest all volunteer armies in history!
 

sphagnum

Banned
The pictures of black soldiers meeting with German soldiers get pointed to a lot by Nazis online who like to go "See, Hitler didn't hate non-whites, he was just pro-German!"

It's a very strange sort of cognitive dissonance.
 

Ogodei

Member
The POWs switching sides fascinates me, but i guess if you were a colonial conscript who wasn't really fighting for a cause from the beginning, you'd point your gun at someone if it kept you out of a POW camp (unlike, say, Japanese POWs captured by the Soviets at Khalkin Gol).

It's notable that these anti-colonial movements never really gained much traction. Even the Indian National Army was small compared to the numbers who fought for the UK.

The Muslim Free Legion was the biggest one, because Iraq got taken over by a proto-Baathist movement briefly in 1940, overthrowing the pro-British monarchy and forcing the British to invade and restore the monarchy. The anti-British exiles fled through Vichy French controlled Syria to get back to German territory, so they saw the Nazi cause as their path back to Iraq.
 

jerry113

Banned

Yang Kyoungjong (Korean: 양경종; Japanese: ヤン・キョンジョン, translit. Yan kyonjon; Russian: Ян Кёнджон, tr. Yan Kondzhon; March 3, 1920 – April 7, 1992) was a Korean soldier who fought in the Imperial Japanese Army, the Soviet Red Army, and later the German Wehrmacht during World War II. He is to date the only soldier to fight on three sides of a war, and this legendary status has earned him much recognition.[1][2][3][4]

In 1938, at the age of 18, Yang was in Manchuria when he was conscripted into the Kwantung Army of the Imperial Japanese Army to fight against the Soviet Union. At the time Korea was ruled by Japan. During the Battles of Khalkhin Gol, he was captured by the Soviet Red Army and sent to a labour camp. Because of the manpower shortages faced by the Soviets in its fight against Nazi Germany, in 1942 he was pressed into fighting in the Red Army along with thousands of other prisoners, and was sent to the European eastern front.[1][3]

In 1943, he was captured by Wehrmacht soldiers in eastern Ukraine during the Third Battle of Kharkov, and was then pressed into fighting for Germany. Yang was sent to Occupied France to serve in a battalion of Soviet prisoners of war known as an "Eastern Battalion", located on the Cotentin peninsula in Normandy, close to Utah Beach. After the D-Day landings in northern France by the Allied forces, Yang was captured by paratroopers of the United States Army in June 1944. The Americans initially believed him to be a Japanese in German uniform; at the time, Lieutenant Robert Brewer of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, reported that his regiment had captured four Asians in German uniform after the Utah Beach landings, and that initially no one was able to communicate with them. Yang was sent to a prison camp in Britain and later transferred to a camp in the United States. After he was released at the end of the war, he settled in Illinois where he lived until his death in 1992.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Kyoungjong

This guy saw a lot of shit.
 

magichans

Banned
FYI This is a complex and nuanced thing.

For example, you posted pics of Muslims in Croatia's SS, but these were pale white Europeans (Bosnians I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think they really count in the context of the debate about Call of Duty having a playable black character on the German side.

The SS with legitimate people of color were probably not fanatically fighting for the German side. They seem to have been used opportunistically, set up almost capriciously, by Himmler. They were definitely not fighting, nor motivated, as the normal SS. As well, to complicate things, I believe that there existed a few instances where black people in Nazi Germany - however few of them there were - were chemically castrated by the regime.

Another thing, slightly related, that is not frequently known is that many Eastern Europeans were very involved in war crime atrocities in the Eastern Front after they joined the Nazis/SS. It wasn't solely ethnic Germans out there massacring people.
 

snap

Banned
FYI This is a complex and nuanced thing.

For example, you posted pics of Muslims in Croatia's SS, but these were pale white Europeans (Bosnians I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think they really count in the context of the debate about Call of Duty having a playable black character on the German side.

The SS with legitimate people of color were probably not fanatically fighting for the German side. They seem to have been used opportunistically, set up almost capriciously, by Himmler. They were definitely not fighting, nor motivated, as the normal SS. As well, to complicate things, I believe that there existed a few instances where black people in Nazi Germany - however few of them there were - were chemically castrated by the regime.

Another thing, slightly related, that is not frequently known is that many Eastern Europeans were very involved in war crime atrocities in the Eastern Front after they joined the Nazis/SS. It wasn't solely ethnic Germans out there massacring people.

It's just really interesting to see pictures of SS troops kneeling in prayer, plus the one with the pamphlet on "Islam and Judaism" is quite striking, but yes, they don't really line up in the same way that actual PoC do in the context of the discussion. The atrocities I tried to get at by mentioning their brutality towards Jews and Serbs, but that's another discussion on its own right.

The minority armies often were set up for specific purposes, however longshot they were. Both the Indische Legion and the Free Arab Legion were planned to be used to spearhead an invasion of Iran, and Subhas Chandra Bose, the Indian man responsible for the Indian National Army and the Indische Legion, even met with Hitler. The Iranian invasion never came to pass. Of course, there was also the desperation later in the war for manpower, which is why the Free Arab Legion ended up doing glorified police duty in occupied Greece and the Indische Legion were put on the front lines in France and later Italy.

In terms of fanaticism, at least the Indische Legion seemed very dedicated to their cause. When they were captured, they had not surrendered by letting the Allies capture them voiluntarily, they were desperately rushing towards the Swiss border, hoping to take refuge there rather than face consequences in British India.
 
Fighting for an axis power does not mean that their beliefs were the same.

Also, did any of those armies wear swastikas or oversee any concentration camps?
 

snap

Banned
Fighting for an axis power does not mean that their beliefs were the same.

Also, did any of those armies wear swastikas or oversee any concentration camps?

Almost guaranteed none of them actually believed in Nazism other than the 1st Croation. All of them just saw an "enemy of my enemy" situation.

Dunno about swastikas specifically, but almost all of them wore uniforms with Nazi symbols. The Croatians may or may not have overseen concentration camps, but had a number of atrocities on their own against Jewish and Serbian peoples.
 

magichans

Banned
It's just really interesting to see pictures of SS troops kneeling in prayer, plus the one with the pamphlet on "Islam and Judaism" is quite striking, but yes, they don't really line up in the same way that actual PoC do in the context of the discussion. The atrocities I tried to get at by mentioning their brutality towards Jews and Serbs, but that's another discussion on its own right.

This might be a can of worms because this topic is still very controversial in the modern Balkans. From my understanding (which isn't that much), these Bosnian SS army units weren't involved in many atrocities against people. They also surrendered very quickly when the allies invaded instead of fighting. They seem to have been superficial, for the most part, or undeveloped.

Now, the Croatian SS was a different story. They perpetrated a genocide targeting the Serbs, along with other groups. The actual SS even looked at what they were doing and said "these people are out of control, they're animals."

Where it all gets complicated is that region, the Balkans, had a war in the 1990's. Genocides happened again. Much of that past history in WW2 has therefore been distorted. I've heard all kinds of contradictions and various claims, from the idea that Bosnians slaughtered a bunch of Serbs with the Croats, to the claim that Croats massacred both Bosnians and Serbs. It's not extremely easy to get unbiased factual history on the subject. You have to dig around a bit due to the unique political resonance of all that history on the region.
 

Belker

Member
I believe there was a position that the Nazis considers the Indians, at least Hindus, aryan. But I find that hard to believe as motivation,rather than just pulling in more bodies to fight and die.

Weirdly the other day, I happened across a wiki entry about a German woman who ended up in India. She ended up as a Nazi Hindu nationalist who believed that Hitler was an incarnation of Vishnu or something. There is a weird occult side to the Nazis.

As for black people in a Germany , I have a book about a boy whose mother was German and father was African , that grew up in Berlin under the nazis. The front cover is of him and his little school friends in jumpers - wearing swastika badges. Somewhere on a shelf here; never read it.
 
These aren't minorities. In their home country, their race was the majority. You can't just call someone a minority's because they have dark skin.
 

snap

Banned
These aren't minorities. In their home country, their race was the majority. You can't just call someone a minority's because they have dark skin.

Yeah I get that, but on this Western-focused site it seemed most accurate to portray them as "minorities" in the thread title, as "foreign born people," at least to me, just sounds like a thread about the Vichy French.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Weirdly the other day, I happened across a wiki entry about a German woman who ended up in India. She ended up as a Nazi Hindu nationalist who believed that Hitler was an incarnation of Vishnu or something. There is a weird occult side to the Nazis.

That would be Savitri Devi.
 

pigeon

Banned
The pictures of black soldiers meeting with German soldiers get pointed to a lot by Nazis online who like to go "See, Hitler didn't hate non-whites, he was just pro-German!"

It's a very strange sort of cognitive dissonance.

How can Hitler voters be racist when they voted for von Hindenburg
 
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