Unknown Soldier
Member
Youtube surfaced this for me today and I thought it was neat, so here it is. Now you can learn all the secrets of the "rubber-banding" AI in classic MK64!
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Modern Vintage Gamer: How Mario Kart 64 Cheats Against You
- Thread starter Unknown Soldier
- Start date
- Analysis Retro Game Dev
Youtube surfaced this for me today and I thought it was neat, so here it is. Now you can learn all the secrets of the "rubber-banding" AI in classic MK64!
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
AI cheating is everywhere. Some are blatant on screen too.
When I played EA NHL games a lot way back if you lucky enough to get a breakaway, the cpu defenders would catch up to like Superman at double speed. It'd look so odd you'd think the player is warping towards you where one stride goes 30 ft at 80 mph.
Also, when the cpu has the puck in your end, the cpu players change algorithms and they all pass, skate and pivot in impossible ways your players cant. even their 3rd and 4th liners suddenly transform into Lemieux and Jagr. But once you get control of the puck and go to the neutral zone you'll the cpu players all go into a different mode where they act more normal.
When I played EA NHL games a lot way back if you lucky enough to get a breakaway, the cpu defenders would catch up to like Superman at double speed. It'd look so odd you'd think the player is warping towards you where one stride goes 30 ft at 80 mph.
Also, when the cpu has the puck in your end, the cpu players change algorithms and they all pass, skate and pivot in impossible ways your players cant. even their 3rd and 4th liners suddenly transform into Lemieux and Jagr. But once you get control of the puck and go to the neutral zone you'll the cpu players all go into a different mode where they act more normal.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Watched this last night. This always manages to make me a little angry. How the CPU is just allowed to blatantly go through trucks and even walls, or just glide over thin air when going off track, is absolute bullshit.
Years ago I had a discussion about the cheating CPU in MK DS. One guy who played competitive online (remember snaking?) had the audacity to post a video where the player basically skipped half of Rainbow Road with some tricks and say “see, just drive like this and the CPU will never pose any problem”. Meanwhile, in my personal experience with MK, the races where I was killing it and the CPU didn’t use a single lightning bolt or blue shell to cheat victory out of my hands are probably in the 1-to-10 ratio, if not lower.
Years ago I had a discussion about the cheating CPU in MK DS. One guy who played competitive online (remember snaking?) had the audacity to post a video where the player basically skipped half of Rainbow Road with some tricks and say “see, just drive like this and the CPU will never pose any problem”. Meanwhile, in my personal experience with MK, the races where I was killing it and the CPU didn’t use a single lightning bolt or blue shell to cheat victory out of my hands are probably in the 1-to-10 ratio, if not lower.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
In one of the old Super Monaco games on Genesis, the AI cheated too. I forget which game it was, but what would happen is you challenge rival racers and if you win you get their car. You'd race against this one suped up guy and his car would literally warp ahead of you when you got close, purposely making you lose and i think he'd get your car and then you'd have to grind back. He'd warp so far ahead you didnt even see his car anymore, but you could see hm way ahead on the map. Youd have to catch up to him again. My memory is hazy on this but it seemed impossible to win.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
The old Dukes of Hazzard games on PSX (Racing For Home esp.) were like this too. When you were chading a car, the AI would wait for you to catch up.
Similairly, the AI had impossible acceleration and turning, something the cops used to great extent to ram you. In certain levels you would see cars just somersaulting in the air because of it. They also had lightning quick respawn's, so you could get hit by 5 Roscoe's in succession
I managed to get this glitched at one level where you could go out of bounds, drive a little and fall of the map. Turns out that if you hang your car at a ledge, it becomes chaotic.
11 year old me had the most childfun ever with those games.
Similairly, the AI had impossible acceleration and turning, something the cops used to great extent to ram you. In certain levels you would see cars just somersaulting in the air because of it. They also had lightning quick respawn's, so you could get hit by 5 Roscoe's in succession
I managed to get this glitched at one level where you could go out of bounds, drive a little and fall of the map. Turns out that if you hang your car at a ledge, it becomes chaotic.
11 year old me had the most childfun ever with those games.
Hollowpoint5557
A Fucking Idiot
Rubber banding AI is the #1 reason I skip the entire Need for Speed series.
RagnarokIV
Battlebus imprisoning me \m/ >.< \m/
Then there was I think Empire Earth. (RTS like Warcraft) I can't remember if the developers claimed it didn't cheat but people watched the computer play on a revealed map where it was clear it absolutely was cheating. (It was building units without collecting resources, got upgrades automatically, etc.)
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
FINALLY someone says it!
I always hated single-player MK64 with a passion. Yeah, I had the PAL version that was slow as hell even in 150cc, but between the terrible track design and the cheating AI, I disliked the game from day 1. That one multiplayer arena was fire, though. Spent whole afternoons and a full night on it with friends.
YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
Though I didn't have proof at the time, it appears I won that childhood argument with my friends after all...
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Big Baller
Al Pachinko, Konami President
This and Need For Speed Underground had me straight up furious at times.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Just to give an example of that instant respawn in Racing For Home: At the annotated time, the truck is and the black car obviously hits the wall next to it. Within a split second, where the car isn't even off-screen yet, the car reappears at high speed.
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Sooner
Member
I was playing MLB The Show and I was up big against the Astros.
Then, before every pitch I made, I hear what sounded like banging of a trash can. The AI started hitting every pitch i made, as if they knew what pitch was coming before I threw it.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Screw it, one more. Just look at this: Its perfect meme material of coming in hot:
cinnamonandgravy
Member
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Speaking of baseball games, I dont think it's possible to beat the old Sega Championship Baseball game in the arcades (from like 1982) in a legit way. You can beat the cpu if you cheese it like some YT videos where you take advantage of a a quirk racking up 40 runs bunting and base stealing. But even then the cpu will score like 25 runs. But try to beat it legit and there is no way it's possible.
My older brother played a lot and his tip to lasting as long as possible is to keep the game close only leading by a few runs tops. According to him, if you get lucky and are up big, the cpu will will destroy you back fast (like below). But keep it close and the cpu might also keep it close. I think the longest I ever lasted is 5 innings.
Coin Toss: Champion Baseball (SEGA, 1983)
Pre-game huddle: The Coin Toss series spotlights sports-related arcade games from years gone by, with the inclusion of personal experiences from The Ref. Get those tokens ready! In the mid-1980s, a…
retrorefereedotcom.wordpress.com
There’s also a bit of “Rubber band AI” in Champion Baseball, much like we will see in later arcade sports games such as NBA Jam and NFL Blitz. If the human player jumps out to a big lead, say 6-0 after a half an inning, don’t expect that lead to last. What would normally be fly outs wind up becoming bloop hits, even the slightest of pitch mistakes will be taken deep, and it seems to be almost too easy to throw to a wrong base. Before long, even after just half an inning, that 6-0 lead can be cut down to 6-5 or lost completely. I once had a 7-0 lead after two innings and thought I was in the clear… until the computer somehow came back with eight runs in the bottom of the inning and my game unceremoniously ended. It can be vicious.
Susurrus
Member
Speaking of RTSs, the AI in the original Command & Conquer is a cheater. I'd wipe out their command center, which can only be built with an MCV pulling up, just to watch a new command center build out of nowhere as if they just built it same as any building, giving the AI an enormous advantage.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I used to play a ton of HoMM3. No doubt the AI cheated. In order to built monster structures, you had to go through a linear path building other structures first and then the level 5, 6, 7 monsters later. It's not a perfect linear path as you could build Behemoths (level 7) before Cyclops (level 6) if you got enough resources. And that assumes you have even accumulated lots of gold and supplies to build it too.
You can only build one structure per turn. So to get to the later good monster spawn structures, it takes a minimum set of turns no matter how much resources you have. No doubt the cpu could build some later structures faster than a human.
Other cheats include roaming the land as if fog of war makes no difference, and going through moongate teleporters it can go back and forth without using movement points. A human has to step out and step back in (using movement pts). The cpu can go back and forth if it wants immediately without moving.
nemiroff
Gold Member
To be honest, I never understood why anyone would bother play these games solo. The rubber banding is so extreme to the point it almost doesn't really matter what you do.
I'm not saying there can be no rubber banding though. I can f.ex. accept how it's implemented in some sim-cade games (somewhat noticeable in the beginning of the race, but weak at the end).
I'm not saying there can be no rubber banding though. I can f.ex. accept how it's implemented in some sim-cade games (somewhat noticeable in the beginning of the race, but weak at the end).
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I didnt play them a ton, but played enough to notice Destruction Derby games on PS1 and Twisted Metal Black on PS2 seeming to have AI always ganging up on the player.
West Texas CEO
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
I know Neokarugaf is mad, but I absolutely love it.
It's one of the charms of 64 that makes it my favorite, even though it can be unfair and frustrating to some.
It's one of the charms of 64 that makes it my favorite, even though it can be unfair and frustrating to some.
BouncyFrag
Member
The Saboteur introduced me into rubberbanding racing shenanigans.