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[ronito]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060829/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rumsfeld

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Tuesday accused critics of the Bush administration's Iraq and counterterrorism policies of trying to appease "a new type of fascism."

In unusually explicit terms, Rumsfeld portrayed the administration's critics as suffering from "moral or intellectual confusion" about what threatens the nation's security and accused them of lacking the courage to fight back.

In remarks to several thousand veterans at the American Legion's national convention, Rumsfeld recited what he called the lessons of history, including the failed efforts to appease the Adolf Hitler regime in the 1930s.

"I recount this history because once again we face similar challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism," he said.

Rumsfeld spoke to the American Legion as part of a coordinated White House strategy, in advance of the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, to take the offensive against administration critics at a time of doubt about the future of Iraq and growing calls to withdraw U.S. troops.

Rumsfeld recalled a string of recent terrorist attacks, from 9/11 to bombings in Bali, London and Madrid, and said it should be obvious to anyone that terrorists must be confronted, not appeased.

"But some seem not to have learned history's lessons," he said, adding that part of the problem is that the American news media have tended to emphasize the negative rather than the positive.

He said, for example, that more media attention was given to U.S. soldiers' abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib than to the fact that Sgt. 1st Class Paul Ray Smith received the Medal of Honor.

"Can we truly afford to believe somehow, some way, vicious extremists can be appeased?" he asked.

"Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths and lies and distortions being told about our troops and about our country," he added.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was addressing the American Legion convention later Tuesday, and President Bush is scheduled to speak here later in the week. On Monday, Vice President Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld made separate addresses to the national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Reno, Nev.

Rumsfeld made similar arguments in Reno about doubters of the administration's approach to fighting terrorism, saying too many in this country want to "blame America first" and ignore the enemy.

What in the holy freaking crap is that? Rummy a few things:
1. Fascisim requires a government . Can you show me Al-Qaeda's government?
2. Gee, I'm sorry about Sgt. Smith. But keep in mind I'm pretty sure someone was getting an important award when the British terrorist plot was uncovered. It's news. Don't come to me and whine about "there are schools being painted in Iraq! You never hear about that!" Yeah, well if 100 people died today in New York I'm pretty sure you wouldn't hear about any of the schools that were being painted in the US.

I actually agree that there are some people who are "blame america first". However just because they exist doesn't mean that America deserves no blame.

 

[tsp_gatmog]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[CharlieDigital]

No, no ronito. Rummy clearly said a "new type of facism". The old type is just fine and dandy and fully supported by this administration.

 

[bob_arctor]

I wonder if Orwell ever thinks of suing this Admenstruation for copyright infringement.

Edit: Why isn't there anyone at these events on standby with a huge, neon "Godwin's Law" sign anytime these idiots bring up Hitler/Nazis/etc.?

If I was a Nazi, I'd be insulted.

 

[xabre]

Fascism is just another one of those buzzwords that elicits enough negative connotations in the average brain dead citizen that they'll support whatever cause you'll tell them to support.

Propaganda in Democratic Societies 101.

 

[human5892]

He said, for example, that more media attention was given to U.S. soldiers' abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib than to the fact that Sgt. 1st Class Paul Ray Smith received the Medal of Honor.

Wait, a guy got a medal of honor? And the media chose instead to focus on a rash of horrific prisoner abuses? Thanks a lot, fascism.

 

[bob_arctor]

Wait, a guy got a medal of honor? And the media chose instead to focus on a rash of horrific prisoner abuses? Thanks a lot, fascism.

LOL.

 

[Beergut]

I wonder if Orwell ever thinks of suing this Adminstration for copyright infringement.

Seriously. Geez...

 

[LordMaji]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I second that!

:lol :lol :lol Rummy = Douche.

 

[Lo-Volt]

Good God.

 

[bob_arctor]

Seriously. Geez...

"But the proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire. They needed only to rise up and shake themselves like a horse shaking off flies. If they chose they could blow the Party to pieces tomorrow morning. Surely sooner or later it must occur to them to do it? And yet -----!"

There's one quote the Administration won't paraphrase or take inspiration from. *sigh* Well, unless when Rummy said this:

"Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths and lies and distortions being told about our troops and about our country," he added.

he meant it as a pre-emptive incitement of the brain-dead that still follow their bullshit against we, the lowly proles.

 

[malek4980]

What in the holy freaking crap is that? Rummy a few things:
1. Fascisim requires a government . Can you show me Al-Qaeda's government?

There are many definitions of fascism, but I don't believe any of the definitions are limited to a form of existing government. For instance fascism may also be a movement or simply a philosophical outlook.

 

[Square2005]

What in the holy freaking crap is that? Rummy a few things:
1. Fascisim requires a government . Can you show me Al-Qaeda's government?
2. Gee, I'm sorry about Sgt. Smith. But keep in mind I'm pretty sure someone was getting an important award when the British terrorist plot was uncovered. It's news. Don't come to me and whine about "there are schools being painted in Iraq! You never hear about that!" Yeah, well if 100 people died today in New York I'm pretty sure you wouldn't hear about any of the schools that were being painted in the US.

I actually agree that there are some people who are "blame america first". However just because they exist doesn't mean that America deserves no blame.

1. No, not necessarily. Look up teh definition. Here's one: "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

So would you disagree w/ the term islamo-fascists? Terrorist is too general, what do you believe we should call them? freedom-fighters?
2. okay.

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

Hmm, Fascism...

Robert Paxton defines it as the following, and I find this a very good defintion:

1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination.’

Alternately, the Neocon manifesto.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

old fascisim vs new fascisim FIGHT!

 

[bob_arctor]

1. No, not necessarily. Look up teh definition. Here's one: "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

So would you disagree w/ the term islamo-fascists? Terrorist is too general, what do you believe we should call them? freedom-fighters?
2. okay.

Hey look guys, it's one of

"Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths and lies and distortions being told about our troops and about our country"

Terrorist is too "general"? :lol Why? Cuz Bushco. told you it is?

Edit: Matter of fact, that's exactly what it is, isn't it? You never even dreamed of calling terrorists "Islamo-whatever" at any point in your life until Bushco's Newspeak finally stuck somewhat. So sad...

 

[Square2005]

Hey look guys, it's one of

Terrorist is too "general"? :lol Why? Cuz Bushco. told you it is?

Edit: Matter of fact, that's exactly what it is, isn't it? You never even dreamed of calling terrorists "Islamo-whatever" at any point in your life until Bushco's Newspeak finally stuck somewhat. So sad...

No.
Edit: Nope, you're putting words in my mouth, isn't that a falacy? Islamo-fascists has been a term used among conservatives for a while now. You've probably only heard the liberal term that they use for terrorists: freedom-fighters.

 

[ronito]

1. No, not necessarily. Look up teh definition. Here's one: "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

So would you disagree w/ the term islamo-fascists? Terrorist is too general, what do you believe we should call them? freedom-fighters?
2. okay.

Edit: Nope, you're putting words in my mouth, isn't that a falacy? Islamo-fascists has been a term used among conservatives for a while now. You've probably only heard the liberal term that they use for terrorists: freedom-fighters.

OMG!!! I DON'T AGREE WITH RUMMY I MUST TEH TERRRRRIST HUGGER!!

Honestly that shtick is old and silly. Didn't work the first time, wont work the 10,000th time.

How is calling a terrorist a terrorist to general? Have you asked your grandparents about this? Fine then, if you want them to have a name how about the name they used to have: "Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists". That's what your grandparents would've called them. Go ahead ask them.

One overlying thing Fascisim that your quaint little definition overlooks is the relationship with Corprorations and Government. Both are missing in Al-Qaeda. I see what the B-admin is trying to do here, setup "Islamo-fascism" as the new "communism" . It's not really going to work. I'm not that trite or naieve. this is a much different challenge

 

[maynerd]

One overlying thing Fascisim that your quaint little definition overlooks is the relationship with Corprorations and Government. Both are missing in Al-Qaeda. I see what the B-admin is trying to do here, setup "Islamo-fascism" as the new "communism" . It's not really going to work. I'm not that trite or naieve.

You may not be but there sure are a lot of people out there that are.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Okay, so we can't call it the "war on terror" and you don't like "war on Islamofascism."

You guys pick a word, then. Have at it.

 

[Hitokage]

Okay, so we can't call it the "war on terror" and you don't like "war on Islamofascism."

You guys pick a word, then. Have at it.

War on Al-Qaeda.

 

[ronito]

War on Al-Qaeda.

Too general.

How's about War on Al-Qaeda Fascist Commies?

 

[JayDubya]

How is calling a terrorist a terrorist to general? Have you asked your grandparents about this? Fine then, if you want them to have a name how about the name they used to have: "Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists". That's what your grandparents would've called them. Go ahead ask them.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with you on this one. Islamo-fascist is a pretty stupid / inaccurate term. Granted, I disagree with the overwhelming majority of the rhetoric in this thread, but it just doesn't capture the concept as well as "islamic fundamentalist terrorist."

To be honest, I'm rather uncertain of what Osama bin Laden's ideal political climate would be besides entirely authoritarian, so calling him a fascist would be a bit presumptive.

* * *
Fake-edit: :lol @ all the doubleplus ungood references to 1984 coming from socialists.

 

[Square2005]

Edit: Nope, you're putting words in my mouth, isn't that a falacy? Islamo-fascists has been a term used among conservatives for a while now. You've probably only heard the liberal term that they use for terrorists: freedom-fighters.[/QUOTE]
OMG!!! I DON'T AGREE WITH RUMMY I MUST TEH TERRRRRIST HUGGER!!

Honestly that shtick is old and silly. Didn't work the first time, wont work the 10,000th time.

How is calling a terrorist a terrorist to general? Have you asked your grandparents about this? Fine then, if you want them to have a name how about the name they used to have: "Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists". That's what your grandparents would've called them. Go ahead ask them.

One overlying thing Fascisim that your quaint little definition overlooks is the relationship with Corprorations and Government. Both are missing in Al-Qaeda. I see what the B-admin is trying to do here, setup "Islamo-fascism" as the new "communism" . It's not really going to work. I'm not that trite or naieve. this is a much different challenge

I did, they agree w/ islamo-fascist & they lived during a time when the U.S. was fighting two fascists states at once (WWII).

But still islamo-fascists fit that definition. just w/o controlling a gov't tho they hav support of gov'ts.
Do you think it's it more challengeing than communism was/is?

 

[ronito]

I did, they agree w/ islamo-fascist & they lived during a time when the U.S. was fighting two fascists states at once (WWII).

But still islamo-fascists fit that definition. just w/o controlling a gov't tho they hav support of gov'ts.
Do you think it's it more challengeing than communism was/is?

Stalin had suicide bombers shouting "ALLAH ACKBAR!!"? Wow!! What WWII did your grandparents fight in? Because that sounds immensly different from the WWII I've talked to vetrans about.

Also where did I say anything about it being more/less challenging than communism? My whole point is that it is different. I can to read!

 

[Square2005]

* * *
Fake-edit: :lol @ all the doubleplus ungood references to 1984 coming from socialists.

Yeah, it's like the ACLU referencing "Brave New World".

 

[JayDubya]

Sorry Square, I agree somewhat with your general sentiment, but I simply hate semantics and weird post-modern reinterpretation of terms.

I see no similarity between the ideology of Benito Mussolini and that of Osama bin Laden besides the fact that they are both authoritarian, but being authoritarian does not make one a fascist. I'm not even sure I like classifying a Nazi as a Fascist, and they're comparatively much more similar.

 

[ronito]

Islamo-authoritarianism.

THAT I could agree to.

 

[Kobun Heat]

War on Al-Qaeda.

Too specific; it needs to be an umbrella term that encompasses the whole of the strategy.

Islamo-authoritarianism. THAT I could agree to.

That's a mouthful, at best. This is PR!

 

[Square2005]

Sorry Square, I agree with the general sentiment, but I hate semantics and weird post-modern reinterpretation of terms.

I see no similarity between the ideology of Benito Mussolini and that of Osama bin Laden besides the fact that they are both authoritarian, but being authoritarian does not make one a fascist.

How about islamo-authors?:lol

Edit: sorta beaten by ronita.

 

[MetatronM]

No.
Edit: Nope, you're putting words in my mouth, isn't that a falacy? Islamo-fascists has been a term used among conservatives for a while now. You've probably only heard the liberal term that they use for terrorists: freedom-fighters.

It's been used as a term among conservatives since 1990, but it hasn't gotten a media spotlight and been thrust into mainstream discourse until fairly recently, and it's been pushed into the limelight by neocon media darlings with eager support by the Administration's mouthpieces.

And frankly, I don't think too many of these "liberal" bogeymen that you speak of refer to most of the terrorist cells operating in the Middle East as "freedom fighters" because that's not what they are. Certain terrorists groups in other parts of the world might be called that, depending on your point of view, as they commit terrorist acts against their own oppressive (or not) governments for change, but that's not what is happening in the Middle East. And frankly, I don't remember the last time I've heard anybody even use that term at all in the mainstream discourse to refer to these people in years. Maybe there are a handful of virulently far left pundits and bloggers who might be using it in their work, but the public at large certainly hasn't been battered with the term the way they have with some of the broader terms like "terrorist" or the neocon terms like "Islamofascist," to say nothing of the repeated use of terms like "crazy" and "madman" by the media to describe certain people of prominence in the region who don't agree with us.

Honestly, I think both "freedom fighter" and "Islamofascist" are equally ignorant and ridiculous terms, at least in the particular context of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, reflecting the user's personal beliefs, politics, and prejudices more strongly than the actual reality of the world.




As for calling terrorists "terrorists" being too general, well, guess what. YOUR PRESIDENT DECLARED A WAR ON TERROR. The conservative side made the bed, and now they don't want to lie in it? "Terror" is too general? Gee, that's a real shame. I could have told you this back in 2001, by the way, when we made this retardedly vague pledge to rid the world of "terrorists."

It wasn't too general to sell wars and win elections, but now it's too general to stick with when the public has started to turn on it? That's awfully convenient, wouldn't you say?

 

[JayDubya]

Islamo-authoritarianism. THAT I could agree to.

It's certainly much more accurate, but it IS quite a mouthful for the pundits on the news, and if the public won't use it, it would never stick.

I don't think the majority of the populace even know what fascism is, so it's kind of lame to use the term repeatedly and try and shove it through as just a big scary word for "the bad guys."

Like I said, I'm not even comfortable calling a Nazi a fascist, and they're obviously "the bad guys." So it would logically follow that while I'm certainly not fond of the Bush administration, I'm also not fond of people calling them fascists - it's just unneccessary, divisive vitriolic language (the "right" is not innocent of it either, but please).

 

[HocusPocus]

I think the #1 above is pretty simple. Just look at Iran.

 

[Xdrive05]

Why do we need a politically correct term for them? They're fvcks. Plain and simple.

 

[ronito]

I think the #1 above is pretty simple. Just look at Iran.

We're at war with Iran? I thought that was supposed to start right before the elections.

 

[bob_arctor]

Edit: Nope, you're putting words in my mouth, isn't that a fallacy? Islamo-fascists has been a term used among conservatives for a while now. You've probably only heard the liberal term that they use for terrorists: freedom-fighters.

:lol No, I've only heard the term everyone uses: terrorists. I don't need these ****s to tell me what word describes them best. But hey, if using Islamofascists makes you feel like you're a peg up on everyone else (do you scoff at ignorant saps such as myself, all nose-up and shit? You should, it'll complete the image), feel free to shoot a load about it.

And hey, **** you with that liberal shit. I'm a spic from the Bronx who'd beat your ass faster then you can coin a pet phrase if you came with this horseshit to my face.

 

[TheOMan]

We're at war with Iran? I thought that was supposed to start right before the elections.

Sad but probably true .

I'm building a bunker and I got room for 10. PM me if you want in.

Spoiler

Don't PM me

 

[Mandark]

I've had this discussion before.

More than once.

Lumping together Iran's government, the Mehdi army, Al Qaeda, Ba'athist insurgents in Iraq, Hezbollah, etc. together because they all do Bad Things and all are Muslim is asinine. If you want to find the closest analog for an insurgency, look at other insurgencies. You want the clostest analog to dictatorship, look at other dictatorships.

The assumption that Islam is the determining factor for how these groups behave, how they relate to each other, and how the US should respond to them is stupid, and borderline racist.

Too specific; it needs to be an umbrella term that encompasses the whole of the strategy.

Gee, I'm not sure if there's a term that sums up a unifying philosophy for Osama, Saddam, Al-Sadr, and the homos.

 

[APF]

Corporate != corporation, BTW

 

[MrSardonic]

god what is this c**t still doing in a position of power. He should be cleaning toilets in a prison

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

One of the ways to run an oppressive government is to have a boogeyman and always assume you are the underdog.

 

[AntoneM]

Like I said, I'm not even comfortable calling a Nazi a fascist

Nazis were fascist, they just added racism and antisemitism into the mix. Nazi is a subset of Fascism as created by Mussolini.

 

[ronito]

Nazis were fascist, they just added racism and antisemitism into the mix. Nazi is a subset of Fascism as created by Mussolini.

no. Nazis might've had some fascist elements but they were their own thing going on. Ergo why they're called Nazis and not fascists.

 

[Xdrive05]

no. Nazis might've had some fascist elements but they were their own thing going on. Ergo why they're called Nazis and not fascists.

The Nazis were socialists. At least in name.

 

[bob_arctor]

All this fascist/socialist talk reminded me to pimp this:

Anarchists get no love!

 

[AntoneM]

The Nazis were a totalitarian regime: "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." Hitler saw the same things as Mussolini ie: when it comes down to it (WWI) people revert from socialism to nationalism. This is the basis of both Germany and Italy durring WWII. If nazism is not a subset of fascism, then please descibe what makes it unique besides racism and antisemitism.

 

[Boogie]

Stalin had suicide bombers shouting "ALLAH ACKBAR!!"? Wow!! What WWII did your grandparents fight in? Because that sounds immensly different from the WWII I've talked to vetrans about.

The US fought Stalin in WWII? What WWII did your grandparents fight in?

no. Nazis might've had some fascist elements but they were their own thing going on. Ergo why they're called Nazis and not fascists.

aaaand by that reasoning, the only group you can call fascist.....were the fascists in Italy.

 

[ronito]

The US fought Stalin in WWII? What WWII did your grandparents fight in?





aaaand by that reasoning, the only group you can call fascist.....were the fascists in Italy.

it's just me and my revisionist history. you know by Stalin I meant Mouslinni. But Xdrive is right, Nazis were more socialists than fascists. By the other reasoning anything that is authoritarian is fascist.

 

[Incognito]

Should be the War on Qutb. I think that'd be too highbrow for our President, though.

 

[Boogie]

it's just me and my revisionist history. you know by Stalin I meant Mouslinni. But Xdrive is right, Nazis were more socialists than fascists. By the other reasoning anything that is authoritarian is fascist.

Well, Xdrive is alluding to the actual name of the party being National Socialist German Workers Party.

Nonetheless, stating definitely that Nazis weren't fascist is just silly.

I mean, going by wikipedia (lolz, I know), which gives a good opening line of "fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism", then clearly the Nazis fit comfortably within pretty much all aspects of the term.