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[Freezie KO]

Huh?

EDIT: To clarify I understand the outraged points you're trying to make in the previous statements but the bolded has me scratching my head. What are you referencing here? The belief in a deity?

I'll just pick a random inaccurate belief like, "Prayer actually does something." You can probably extrapolate from there a number of other beliefs completely unsupported by evidence held by the Catholic Church. And none of those beliefs are necessary for a charitable organization to hold.

 

[Foxix Von]

Don't forget the crusades

They marched into the middle east and killed and raped everything they could get their hands on for 200 years but hey they did a lot of good too

I'm not particularly knowledgeable regarding large segments of world history but I'd love to do some reading on the Crusades if you or anyone else has some good links to throw me.

I'll just pick a random inaccurate belief like, "Prayer actually does something." You can probably extrapolate from there a number of other beliefs completely unsupported by evidence held by the Catholic Church. And none of those beliefs are necessary for a charitable organization to hold.

Edit: Ah, gotcha so you're generally referencing the concept of a deity and all of the religion/worship baggage/philosophical hurdles that goes with it then I take it?

 

[TheNatural]

Religion based threads should be nuked from orbit on this site.

There can't be a meaningful conversation had when people say shit generalizing the "church" as everyone in it is horrible, black and white, nothing else.

The Catholic church has both has a child abuse scandal and opposed gay marriage, but also was a big proponent of civil rights equality and helped the poor probably more than just about any institution in human history.

The fact that some want to be absolutists because they can't live in gray without generalizing every single thing to make their lives easier doesn't change that fact.

If you can only recognize one side or the other, you probably need to shut the fuck up.

 

[Gotchaye]

I don't deny that some orphanages, parishes, archdioceses and the like were heavy hit with pedophilia, and those supposed men of the cloth need to be given up to face justice.

Right, but they aren't being given up. The Church as an institution has pretty much without fail acted to protect them. It can do this because it wields substantial political and economic power, and it has this power because the institution still enjoys the support of many people who object to many of the specific acts of wrongdoing. So now what?

This is like EA and SimCity, to reference the other thread I've been hanging out in today. If you don't vote with your dollars, what does the Catholic hierarchy care? This doesn't mean that Catholics support everything the Church is doing, just as the poor souls who bought SimCity don't have to support what EA did there, but they're enabling it and are to some degree culpable.

 

[HerbertFish]

Well, this thread has completely turned to shit.

 

[KtSlime]

And you think there is no evil in other organizations right?... don't be so naive.

That's really the crux of the situation. Many of us advocating point out and criticizing the evil acts of an organization until they turn their ways around and make amends. The Catholic Church has yet to do this for many of their atrocities, and continue to do evil this very day.

No institution is above the critique of people - not businesses, not NPOs, not governments, and not religions.

Freezie KO - did you know that it has been fewer years since their last execution than the number years it took from the establishment of the Church to their first? Not saying they will start up the act again, but institutions planning on keeping power have a way of making their enemies disappear.

 

[KillGore]

Is this the first american pope?? Most have been european, right?

 

[G-Unit]

Condemning a church for wrongdoing doesn't imply denial of its accomplishments.

really? because thats how it is. When you over generalize things you are calling everyone the same. And apparently we are all pedofiles. We all hate science, freedom... our love is fake. We don't want change, yada yada.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Is this the first american pope?? Most have been european, right?

I don't recall any previous one.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

So if you wanna deny the good parts, suit yourself.

It's not that folks are denying it, but that they are weighing it against the extreme evils wrought by members and subsequently covered up by the organization itself.

 

[HerbertFish]

Is this the first american pope?? Most have been european, right?

All have been European I believe.

 

[Devolution]

Religion based threads should be nuked from orbit on this site.

There can't be a meaningful conversation had when people say shit generalizing the "church" as everyone in it is horrible, black and white, nothing else.

The Catholic church has both has a child abuse scandal and opposed gay marriage, but also was a big proponent of civil rights equality and helped the poor probably more than just about any institution in human history.

The fact that some want to be absolutists because they can't live in gray without generalizing every single thing to make their lives easier doesn't change that fact.

If you can only recognize one side or the other, you probably need to shut the fuck up.

Or you know Catholics who are decent could stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Well, I actually do like to partake in discussions on religion (with all criticisms as well), but no matter how open minded I am blatant disrespect is a huge no-no for me.

I live by this rule, and I think many people do as well. I also think it is the most effective way of getting your point across.

What is weird to me is how obvious the above is...you would think that if people were truly committed to getting people to change their views (since it is very true that the Catholic Church has some serious baggage that they need to be held accountable for and not simply swept under the rug) they would adhere to it as well. It makes me wonder what they are really arguing for.

That's nice, but I thought you were gonna show me examples of this rampant double standard.

So far, you have presented one. Well, not actually presented, but rather referenced.

Is that all?

 

[Freezie KO]

Freezie KO - did you know that it has been fewer years since their last execution than the number years it took from the establishment of the Church to their first? Not saying they will start up the act again, but institutions planning on keeping power have a way of making their enemies disappear.

As a matter of fact I di

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

Right, but they aren't being given up. The Church as an institution has pretty much without fail acted to protect them. It can do this because it wields substantial political and economic power, and it has this power because the institution still enjoys the support of many people who object to many of the specific acts of wrongdoing. So now what?

You're starting to see a few priest and bishops actually aid law enforcement. Minute but it's a beginning. There is also the remote possibility this Pope says "enough" and actually expunges these creeps, especially considering this has been a loud vocal point since JPII was Pope.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Is this the first american pope?? Most have been european, right?

He's the first:

There have been 217 popes from Italy, 17 from France, 13 from Greece, 8 from Germany, 6 from Syria, 3 from Africa, 2 from Portugal, 2 from Spain, and one each from Galilee (Palestine) (Saint Peter), England (Pope Adrian IV), the Netherlands (Adrian VI), Poland (John Paul II) and most recently, Argentina (Pope Francis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Popes_by_nationality

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I'm not particularly knowledgeable regarding large segments of world history but I'd love to do some reading on the Crusades if you or anyone else has some good links to throw me.

Edit: Ah, gotcha so you're generally referencing the concept of a deity and all of the religion/worship baggage/philosophical hurdles that goes with it then I take it?

History of the decline and fall of the roman empire. It covers all of the middle ages tho

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Or you know Catholics who are decent could stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution.

hahaha damn, that emphasis

 

[FyreWulff]

civil rights equality and helped the poor probably more than just about any institution in human history.

They're not doing a great job of this with their anti-woman law support and actions and telling poor people to not use cheap birth control to prevent themselves from becoming even poorer.

The Catholic Church openly fires female teachers for being pregnant. They do not fire male teachers that have a kid out of wedlock.

They'eve even fired a woman who had a kid while MARRIED, but determined that it was concieved right before the wedding, so it was still out of wedlock and they fired her.

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

Or you know Catholics who are decent could stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution.

Because all Catholics aren't infuriated that priests haven't been defrocked and brought to face justice, right?

 

[Devolution]

Because all Catholics aren't infuriated that priests haven't been defrocked and brought to face justice, right?

That's not what I said but keep misrepresenting my points.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

really? because thats how it is. When you over generalize things you are calling everyone the same. And apparently we are all pedofiles. We all hate science, freedom... our love is fake. We don't want change, yada yada.

I'd like you to point out who in here claimed that all of the Catholic Church are pedophiles, that all hate science and freedom, that your love is fake... whatever that is intended to mean.

 

[xenist]

Feel free to ignore what I say but there's a qualitative difference between helping people with a goal in mind (spreading God's word in religion's case) and helping people because it is the right thing to do.

 

[G-Unit]

The "good people" should leave the church then instead of propping up bigots and child molesters.

Who are you again to decide? You leave something when there is nothing left. But thats what some people deny to take a look. It's cheap to take the easy road

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Because all Catholics aren't infuriated that priests haven't been defrocked and brought to face justice, right?

If you are infuriated then stop supporting them. Stop giving them your money. Stop allowing the same people who covered up these crimes select a new pope and celebrating it.

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

That's not what I said but keep misrepresenting my points.

So how should Catholics "stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution?" Abandon Catholicism?

 

[Jimothy]

People know that most religions offer tangible benefits to society.

Ehhhh.

 

[Devolution]

So how should Catholics "stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution?" Abandon Catholicism?

Seems like you're the one with a narrow definition of Catholic. Funny how you're trying to accuse me of the same.

 

[Gotchaye]

Who are you again to decide? You leave something when there is nothing left. But thats what some people deny to take a look. It's cheap to take the easy road

Could you unpack this? I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[hym]

All have been European I believe.

Of course there have been non-European popes, just not in the last 1000 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

St Peter - Bethsaida, Galilea
St Evaristus - Bethlehem, Judea
St Anicetus - Emesa, Syria
St Miltiades - Africa

 

[Threi]

That's nice, but I thought you were gonna show me examples of this rampant double standard.

So far, you have presented one. Well, not actually presented, but rather referenced.

Is that all?

Yup. Also nobody else go hunting for...reasons.

*shifty eyes*

 

[HerbertFish]

I'd like you to point out who in here claimed that all of the Catholic Church are pedophiles, that all hate science and freedom, that your love is fake... whatever that is intended to mean.

I think a lot of people confuse the Catholic church with other churches. Who would say they are anti science?

 

[TheNatural]

Or you know Catholics who are decent could stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution.

Except it's not 100% black or white, which you can't seem to get through your head.

If you're looking for one organization or government in power to do 100% right by you, then you're in for a losing proposition.

Bringing up "centuries" of some malicious acts? I don't see you moving to Canada because the US government intentionally killed hundreds of thousands of populace in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Get off your high horse. It's not always one side or the other.

 

[Pastry]

Ugh can y'all spin this off into another thread so we can talk about the history of the papacy and what this means for the Catholic Church? I'm saying this an athiest, this is ridiculous now.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

So how should Catholics "stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution?" Abandon Catholicism?

It worked for me.

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

Seems like you're the one with a narrow definition of Catholic. Funny how you're trying to accuse me of the same.

No, I am curious to know how you would like Catholics to change the church.

 

[KillGore]

He's the first:

There have been 217 popes from Italy, 17 from France, 13 from Greece, 8 from Germany, 6 from Syria, 3 from Africa, 2 from Portugal, 2 from Spain, and one each from Galilee (Palestine) (Saint Peter), England (Pope Adrian IV), the Netherlands (Adrian VI), Poland (John Paul II) and most recently, Argentina (Pope Francis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Popes_by_nationality

Very interesting.

It was strange to me that there weren't any american popes, I mean, according to wikipedia, 49% of all catholics are from America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country

26% on Europe.

 

[Devolution]

Except it's not 100% black or white, which you can't seem to get through your head.

If you're looking for one organization or government in power to do 100% right by you, then you're in for a losing proposition.

Bringing up "centuries" of some malicious acts? I don't see you moving to Canada because the US government intentionally killed hundreds of thousands of populace in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Get off your high horse. It's not always one side or the other.

Not raping children and covering it up = 100% doing right by me. Your standards wow.

 

[eudaemonic]

Feel free to ignore what I say but there's a qualitative difference between helping people with a goal in mind (spreading God's word in religion's case) and helping people because it is the right thing to do.

I feel the same way.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Catholicism is much of a nation as it is an institution imo

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I think a lot of people confuse the Catholic church with other churches. Who would say they are anti science?

I'm assuming G-Unit is talking about Catholicism, specifically.

 

[Foxix Von]

History of the decline and fall of the roman empire. It covers all of the middle ages tho

The abridged version or is there a specific volume?

 

[The_Monk]

Ugh can y'all spin this off into another thread so we can talk about the history of the papacy and what this means for the Catholic Church? I'm saying this an athiest, this is ridiculous now.

I agree with this fellow GAFfer.

 

[Knoxcore]

Very interesting.

It was strange to me that there weren't any american popes, I mean, according to wikipedia, 49% of all catholics are from America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country

26% on Europe.

That's wrong, almost half of the Catholic population live in South America, not America.

 

[Freezie KO]

So how should Catholics "stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution?" Abandon Catholicism?

Sure. Why not?

I think a lot of people confuse the Catholic church with other churches. Who would say they are anti science?

They wouldn't claim to be "anti-science," but they sure don't apply the scientific method in determining all of their beliefs.

 

[G-Unit]

I'd like you to point out who in here claimed that all of the Catholic Church are pedophiles, that all hate science and freedom, that your love is fake... whatever that is intended to mean.

Thats not even hard. I and millions are the church. So when you say church you are calling us out. It is quite quite different when you say "some or many". You may think this is semantic for us, but it is not. Again, are we all this evil bitches that don't care?

 

[Talon]

Catholicism is far more pro science than any other Christian denomination. It's not even close.

Protestant faith by-in-large preaches ignorance over understanding, where as Catholicism actively encourages secular understanding.

This was an instance where Benedict's little episode in 2009 was out of the mainstream.

 

[KillGore]

That's wrong, almost half of the Catholic population live in South America, not America.

I call the whole continent America. I didn't say US.

Edit: Also, North America has a lot of catholics as well, considering Mexico, the Caribbeans and the other central american countries are part of North America.

 

[Devolution]

No, I am curious to know how you would like Catholics to change the church.

Leave it. Stop providing the elites who are morally despicable people with money. If you care so much about what the church does you can supply your money to charitable causes that aren't affiliated with the church that do the same things.

Is this difficult?

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

Sure. Why not?

Maybe, just maybe, there are people out there who find Catholicism meaningful, just like others do with regards to other faiths.