NxGamer: How Important are API's? | Technobabble

It's an interesting video, but the conclusions are skewed due to the RE7 engine analysis. He placed the blame for performance bottlenecks on the API and completely ignored the way that the game engine itself was architected. The game prior to RE7, Shadow of the Tomb Raider showed good performance and RE7 did not using the same DX API, so it's readily evident what the issue was. And it isn't the API.

This would have been a better video if he'd left the console stuff out and focused exclusively on PC hardware and API performance. He had literally nothing in the video to support any of his console assertions. Saying that the Xbox Series API's probably aren't ready and PS5 API's are probably farther along really needs to be qualified with something more than "because Xbox has been focused more on backwards compatibility." I may have just misunderstood the point he was trying to make. But the console API part probably should have been a separate video when he actually had something concrete to use to support what he was saying.
 
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Holy cow, that doom eternal segment made me sick.

slow paced shooting - melee attack - shoot - melee attack - shoot - melee attack - shoot - melee attack - shoot - melee attack - shoot - melee attack ...

I will never understand the appeal of the slow paced quake eternal. I want a proper DOOM game, not quake in disguise.

Completely unrelated, here something funny to amend my post.
 
The question posed makes absolutely zero sense. It's like asking if wheels on a car are important. Well you don't technically need them, but you better have four if you want to drive and not push the thing yourself.
 
HerjansEagleFeeder said:
The question posed makes absolutely zero sense. It's like asking if wheels on a car are important. Well you don't technically need them, but you better have four if you want to drive and not push the thing yourself.
Click to expand...
But some tires are better than others and some for specific situations. Would you put drag slicks on your jeep to go offroading?
 
HerjansEagleFeeder said:
The question posed makes absolutely zero sense. It's like asking if wheels on a car are important. Well you don't technically need them, but you better have four if you want to drive and not push the thing yourself.
Click to expand...

Wat. Do you realise just how complex the underlying functions are within a lot of API calls? And how many millions of different ways you could implement them? Do you think Sony just says "hey guys make an api call to do render scaling exactly like DLSS 2.0, k thx bye". Some of them are simple. But some of them can based on research that can be as old as decades in the making; see Microsoft's latest working on their SEAL library. 30 to 40 years of research sits behind SEAL.
 
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jigglet said:
Wat. Do you realise just how complex the underlying functions are within a lot of API calls? And how many millions of different ways you could implement them? Do you think Sony just says "hey guys make an api call to do render scaling exactly like DLSS 2.0, k thx bye". Some of them are simple. But some of them can based on research that can be as old as decades in the making; see Microsoft's latest working on their SEAL library. 30 to 40 years of research sits behind SEAL.
Click to expand...

I have been wanting better seal rendering in games forever, can't wait!
 
ReBurn said:
It's an interesting video, but the conclusions are skewed due to the RE7 engine analysis. He placed the blame for performance bottlenecks on the API and completely ignored the way that the game engine itself was architected. The game prior to RE7, Shadow of the Tomb Raider showed good performance and RE7 did not using the same DX API, so it's readily evident what the issue was. And it isn't the API.

This would have been a better video if he'd left the console stuff out and focused exclusively on PC hardware and API performance. He had literally nothing in the video to support any of his console assertions. Saying that the Xbox Series API's probably aren't ready and PS5 API's are probably farther along really needs to be qualified with something more than "because Xbox has been focused more on backwards compatibility." I may have just misunderstood the point he was trying to make. But the console API part probably should have been a separate video when he actually had something concrete to use to support what he was saying.
Click to expand...

If you did some research you would know that there's valid proof of Direct x 12 ultimate re-write being behind since summer.

Ps5/playstation api is not based on Microsoft direct x.
 
jigglet said:
Wat. Do you realise just how complex the underlying functions are within a lot of API calls? And how many millions of different ways you could implement them? Do you think Sony just says "hey guys make an api call to do render scaling exactly like DLSS 2.0, k thx bye". Some of them are simple. But some of them can based on research that can be as old as decades in the making; see Microsoft's latest working on their SEAL library. 30 to 40 years of research sits behind SEAL.
Click to expand...
You're overthinking the statement. What it is saying is that developers really don't have a choice these days in whether they use an API, so the question of whether they're important is irrelevant.
 
I can't watch right this dev but that's such an odd question. Doesn't make sense. The only alternative is to write your own directx / OpenGL.
 
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Papacheeks said:
If you did some research you would know that there's valid proof of Direct x 12 ultimate re-write being behind since summer.

Ps5/playstation api is not based on Microsoft direct x.
Click to expand...
I never said that PS5 uses DirectX. The video didnt mention DirectX 12 Ultimate rewrite.
 
ReBurn said:
I never said that PS5 uses DirectX. The video didnt mention DirectX 12 Ultimate rewrite.
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It's a known thing. Xbox uses a version of windows. Which uses direct x 12 as it's api. All this year and sometime last year they layed out their plans for direct x 12 ultimate re-write for next gen. Which included support for things like gpu scheduling, use of nvme which Nvidia touched on and is waiting on Microsoft.

Issue is Microsoft was behind in the api rewrite which slowed devkit updates. Hence why Halo had no ray tracing. And now hearing a lot of third party are saying ray tracing for xbox coming in post patch.

Not hard to follow the breadcrumbs. Matt who is a developer and on reset even confirmed this ages ago on top of others in the know who confirmed.
 
Gave up halfway through, just a pointless video full of assumptions and waffle.

Saying that the Xbox APIs are behind Sony just because MS have shown BC more makes no sense. That's a terrible assumption. Developers have been making X/S games for ages, they're releasing in a few weeks. They haven't said anything about Series X/S APIs being less complete than Sony's. Direct X is the industry standard. It didn't get that way by being incomplete.

You have to use APIs to make games on consoles, so it's a stupid premise for a video in the first place.
 
MrFunSocks said:
Gave up halfway through, just a pointless video full of assumptions and waffle.

Saying that the Xbox APIs are behind Sony just because MS have shown BC more makes no sense. That's a terrible assumption. Developers have been making X/S games for ages, they're releasing in a few weeks. They haven't said anything about Series X/S APIs being less complete than Sony's. Direct X is the industry standard. It didn't get that way by being incomplete.

You have to use APIs to make games on consoles, so it's a stupid premise for a video in the first place.
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Microsoft are indeed rewriting DX12 to further enhance and find efficiencies. It's been said on many occasions that PS5 is easier to develop for at this stage.

So yes, there is weight behind NXGamers comments.
Continual improvements are an ongoing process and as NX points out make firmware updates throughout a consoles lifespan.

Sony have efficiencies in some areas MS have efficiencies in others.

Its a continuous cycle.

Just because DX is industry standard doesn't mean it's efficient. That's this whole point of the video. Vulken for example is more efficient in many circumstances and visa versa.
 
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MrFunSocks said:
Gave up halfway through, just a pointless video full of assumptions and waffle.

Saying that the Xbox APIs are behind Sony just because MS have shown BC more makes no sense. That's a terrible assumption. Developers have been making X/S games for ages, they're releasing in a few weeks. They haven't said anything about Series X/S APIs being less complete than Sony's. Direct X is the industry standard. It didn't get that way by being incomplete.

You have to use APIs to make games on consoles, so it's a stupid premise for a video in the first place.
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This is not based on assumption, it is based on:

  1. several developers telling me this with access to both machines
  2. The PS5 Devkits were out sooner AND have been easier to work on with higher support.
  3. The lack of real Next gen games on the machine and the recent downplaying by Phil on RT.
  4. Halo Infinite, I covered that in-depth and I was right as it was delayed AFTER I stated my view on it.
  5. The marketing is very full on, yet only old games are STILL being show bar a couple of x-gen 3rd party ones.
As yourself this, 2 weeks from launch a huge 1st Party Gears 5 Update is still only being teased and shown NOW. If I was MS I would be pushing that out at events, why not?

MS are not going to state this, but they have indirectly DX12U is late, the Velocity Architecture is a year out on PC AT LEAST. If you want to ignore it, that is fine. But I am only stating what I know, have been told and can clearly recognise in my many years of development and shipping products with all the bravado that has to accompany it.

That last line from you makes zero sense, what does it have to do with my video or its content. Can you not see the point is showing how much a GOOD or BAD API can affect performance. At no point do I state going without, in fact I state the exact opposite in the video.

ReBurn said:
It's an interesting video, but the conclusions are skewed due to the RE7 engine analysis. He placed the blame for performance bottlenecks on the API and completely ignored the way that the game engine itself was architected. The game prior to RE7, Shadow of the Tomb Raider showed good performance and RE7 did not using the same DX API, so it's readily evident what the issue was. And it isn't the API.

This would have been a better video if he'd left the console stuff out and focused exclusively on PC hardware and API performance. He had literally nothing in the video to support any of his console assertions. Saying that the Xbox Series API's probably aren't ready and PS5 API's are probably farther along really needs to be qualified with something more than "because Xbox has been focused more on backwards compatibility." I may have just misunderstood the point he was trying to make. But the console API part probably should have been a separate video when he actually had something concrete to use to support what he was saying.
Click to expand...

I show IN THIS VIDEO a 9% higher CPU from Xbox results in almost identical performance, on the same game, same hardware, different API.

I then use PC (and clearly state why) to show how much an API can improve or degrade a games performance as the ONLY difference. At points we can see 100+% improvement on the exact same hardware/engine and drivers with the API being the cause.

It was to show how much work goes into these behind the scenes and how vital they are.
HerjansEagleFeeder said:
The question posed makes absolutely zero sense. It's like asking if wheels on a car are important. Well you don't technically need them, but you better have four if you want to drive and not push the thing yourself.
Click to expand...
ReBurn said:
You're overthinking the statement. What it is saying is that developers really don't have a choice these days in whether they use an API, so the question of whether they're important is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
I am bemused, how are you getting this from the video. I am showing that API has a big impact performance with everything else being equal and thus the importance of them.
 
MS with GDK see long term at the expanse of launch imo.
but having one dev kit fro all their platform will pay in others ways.
 
jigglet said:
Who needs an API. Real devs code in assembly.
Click to expand...


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I'm actually curious how optimized games would get if we actually did code everything in assembly.


EDIT: I take that back, every game would probably be FF vs 13 in terms of development length lol
 
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HerjansEagleFeeder said:
The question posed makes absolutely zero sense. It's like asking if wheels on a car are important. Well you don't technically need them, but you better have four if you want to drive and not push the thing yourself.
Click to expand...
He was implying the importance of having the right type of tyres on those wheels, not if you need them or not.
 
MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...

Dude. This is way over the top.
 
MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...
Why do you sound so but hurt ? Even Digital Foundry said that Microsoft is behind on their development of the next gdk Game Core.
 
MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...

You don't have enough knowledge to troll this video away, just stop it with the ridiculous questions.
 
MrFunSocks said:
What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...
To over simplify his abilities or knowledge like that, your level of knowledge must be far more to do so. Please, tell us.
 
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cormack12 said:
Dude. This is way over the top.
Click to expand...

Not really. Both him and digital foundry are in essence youtubers. Youtubers with ZERO education in the field, zero experience and most of the time zero knowhow into a particular project that they cover nontheless. Its kinda ridiculous that "tech people" in this hobby of ours are actually just random fans who read some google articles and then proceed to "analyse" games by the naked fucking eye without ever being in the field of making a game or having access to the minutia and details of every project.

Lets not mention how Durante ripped nxgamer several new assholes a few years ago by literally stating he has no idea what he's talking about.

www.resetera.com

The Witcher 3 Xbox One X Patch Released (Patch Notes Inside)

There are so many small quality of life updates and improvement littered across the game since I last played it (2 years ago), it's a totally different game. Blown away by CDPs support of this fantastic title.
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com


I can only imagine how it must be like for a guy like Durante. Actual PH fucking D in computer sciences. University profesor in Berlin in this field. And fucking porting entire games by himself. And actually starting his own console to pc porting company. Imagine being a guy like that with the know-how that he has and looking at random joe's off the street starting doing youtube "technical analysis". The facepalms he must've inflicted on himself
 
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MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...

Your response I feel is over-the-top and crossed the line.

Why the attack? Why not just debate in a calmer manner?
 
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MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...

Are you just mad that there is possibility that MS wastes more performance on their software stack than Sony? It kinda sounds like it.


I have heard it many many times from different sources, that Sony APIs are "better" to extract more performance from the hardware, than MS.

Mainly because MS uses directx/pc stuff which isnt as specialized/optimized as Sonys, because Sony doesnt have to think any other hardware than Ps4, and now PS5.

I have also heard that Sony APIs are "closer to the metal" aka have less overhead betwern hardware and APIs.

It sounds logical as windows/DirectX isnt the most streamlined software
 
Wait where has it been stated that MS's APIs are less performant? There's a difference between being more performant and easier to use. All I've heard is that PS's API's are easier to use.
 
MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...

Damn and i thought i was in a bad mood today.

Thanks for the video NXGamer NXGamer , awesome work as usual.
 
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N1tr0sOx1d3 said:
Just because DX is industry standard doesn't mean it's efficient. That's this whole point of the video. Vulken for example is more efficient in many circumstances and visa versa
Click to expand...
Can you give one example of Vulkan being more efficient than DX12U? Something with actual numbers, not guesses, please.

NXGamer said:
I show IN THIS VIDEO a 9% higher CPU from Xbox results in almost identical performance, on the same game, same hardware, different API.

I then use PC (and clearly state why) to show how much an API can improve or degrade a games performance as the ONLY difference. At points we can see 100+% improvement on the exact same hardware/engine and drivers with the API being the cause.
Click to expand...
The point you are missing is that in most engines, an API path does not exactly the same as another API path. You don't know what happens in the engines you are comparing APIs with.
Not taking into account those differences or thinking that having the same drivers would somehow allow to compare two different code paths, one per each API that support them, is disingenuous at best.
 
onesvenus said:
Can you give one example of Vulkan being more efficient than DX12U? Something with actual numbers, not guesses, please.
Click to expand...

There's plenty of comparisons out there, go look.
No one is saying that Vulkan is better than DX12U that's the point of the video!? How is this not getting through to people?
Different APIs are available depending on what developers want to use for their specific reasons which is EXACTLY why Doom 2016 was created with Vulkan and not DX.
 
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Stop being shitty, to people who provide contect for community. I don't think that there was something wrong in the video and besides I would say that the video is generic in a sense that you could use apply to any device.
 
N1tr0sOx1d3 said:
There's plenty of comparisons out there, go look.
Click to expand...
Well, I am not the one who claimed something. You should be the one providing something to back your claims.
But anyway, the first search result on dx12 vs vulkan is this analysis of RDR2 which implements both APIs. Take a look. Spoiler: it doesn't support your claim.

So again, can you provide some source backing that Vulkan is more efficient than DX12 in one of those many circumstances?

Thanks!
 
onesvenus said:
Well, I am not the one who claimed something. You should be the one providing something to back your claims.
But anyway, the first search result on dx12 vs vulkan is this analysis of RDR2 which implements both APIs. Take a look. Spoiler: it doesn't support your claim.

So again, can you provide some source backing that Vulkan is more efficient than DX12 in one of those many circumstances?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I can't no. Vulkan is such a slug of an API that no dev dare implement it in their game. Which is why no devs use it. Which is why you can't find many comparisons out there.
 
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NXGamer said:
The lack of real Next gen games on the machine and the recent downplaying by Phil on RT.
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This doesn't make a lot of sense since we know there are game coming at launch and right after that have ray tracing confirmed for both machines. We haven't heard of any devs saying RT and other features will not be implemented for those games on Series X. Microsoft was also the first to show ray tracing capabilities of Series X with Minecraft path tracing way before we saw anything from Sony.
 
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MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...

Lol... still waiting for you to let us know about that Xbox Series Family SDK... you know to prove it doesn't take any additional work to develop for the Series S. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
MrFunSocks said:
Which developers? Which games? What calls are MS's API developments behind in? What do you mean by the PS5 dev kit being "easier to work on"? In what way is it easier?

there is no lack of real next gen games. It has next gen games, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Lol you were right about halo infinite. That video was rubbish. You just said exactly what everyone else was saying. You think you got proven right because they delayed it when literally everyone was making fun of it and saying they should delay it? Talk about egotistical.

The marketing is full on for series x? Really? Where? MS don't have any next gen exclusive games to show for launch. Do you want them to show games they don't have? Or are you going to leap to another ridiculous conclusion like that proves their APIs are behind? Lol

No shit api performance can make a difference. We don't need a 22 minute video to tell us that. If everything else is the same of course a better api will perform better. "does a well written api work better than a badly written api?" Just doesn't have that same ring to it, does it?

What's your background in video game development? What hands on do you have with these consoles? It seems to me like because you can pixel count and know a few words you think you're an expert on all things video games now.
Click to expand...

For anyone wondering, this is someone who goes around the forum calling other people fanboys.
 
MS creates Direct X ... the creator. . There is no way they are behind in graphic apis.
That is a ridiculous notion.

I seriously doubt their Xbox sdk is behind either.
 
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