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Perils of the Man-Date

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kumanoki

Member
Weird eyes for straight guys who just want to go out

By JENNIFER 8. LEE
THE NEW YORK TIMES

The delicate posturing began with the phone call.

The proposal was that two buddies back in New York City for a holiday break in December meet to visit the Museum of Modern Art after its major renovation.

"He explicitly said, 'I know this is kind of weird, but we should probably go,' " said Matthew Speiser, 25, recalling his conversation with John Putman, 28, a former classmate from Williams College.

The weirdness was apparent once they reached the museum, where they semi-avoided each other as they made their way through the galleries and eschewed any public displays of connoisseurship. "We definitely went out of our way to look at things separately," recalled Speiser, who has had art-history classes in his time.

"We shuffled. We probably both pretended to know less about the art than we did."

Eager to cut the tension following what they perceived to be a slightly unmanly excursion -- two guys looking at art together -- they headed directly to a bar. "We couldn't stop talking about the fact that it was ridiculous we had spent the whole day together one on one," said Speiser, who is straight, as is Putman. "We were purging ourselves of insecurity."

Anyone who finds a date with a potential romantic partner to be a minefield of unspoken rules should consider the man date, a rendezvous between two straight men that is even more socially perilous.

Simply defined, a man date is two heterosexual men socializing without the crutch of business or sports. It is two guys meeting for the kind of outing a straight man might reasonably arrange with a woman. Dining together across a table without the aid of a television is a man date; eating at a bar is not. Taking a walk in the park together is a man date; going for a jog is not. Attending the movie "Friday Night Lights" is a man date, but going to see the Jets play is definitely not.

"Sideways," the Oscar-winning film about two buddies touring the central California wine country on the eve of the wedding of one of them, is one long and boozy man date.

Although "man date" is a coinage invented for this article, appearing nowhere in the literature of male bonding (or of homosexual panic), the 30 to 40 straight men interviewed, from their 20s to their 50s, living in cities across the country, instantly recognized the peculiar ritual even if they had not consciously examined its dos and don'ts. Depending on the activity and on the two men involved, an undercurrent of homoeroticism that may be present determines what feels comfortable or not on a man date, as Speiser and Putman discovered in their squeamishness at the Modern.

Jim O'Donnell, a professor of business and economics at Huntington University in Indiana, who said his life had been changed by a male friend, urges men to get over their discomfort in socializing one on one because they have much to gain from the emotional support of male friendships. (Women understand this instinctively, which is why there is no female equivalent to the awkward man date; straight women have long met for dinner or a movie without a second thought.)

"A lot of quality time is lost as we fritter around with minor stuff like the Final Four scores," said O'Donnell, who was on the verge of divorce in the mid-1980s before a series of conversations over meals and walks with a friend 20 years his senior changed his thinking. "He was instrumental in turning me around in the vulnerability that he showed," said O'Donnell, who wrote about the friendship in a book, "Walking With Arthur." "I can remember times when he wanted to know why I was going to leave my wife. No guy had ever done that before."

While some men explicitly seek man dates, and others flatly reject them as pointless, most seem to view them as an unavoidable form of socializing in an age when friends can often catch up only by planning in advance. The ritual comes particularly into play for many men after college, as they adjust to a more structured, less spontaneous social life. "You see kids in college talking to each other, bull sessions," said Peter Nardi, a sociology professor at Pitzer College in Claremont, Calif., who edited a book called "Men's Friendships." "But the opportunities to get close to another man, to share and talk about their feelings, are not available after a certain age."

The concern about being perceived as gay is one of the major complications of socializing one on one, many straight men acknowledge. That is what Speiser, now a graduate student at the University of Virginia, recalled about another man date he set up at a highly praised Italian restaurant in a strip mall in Charlottesville. It seemed a comfortable choice to meet his roommate, Thomas Kim, a lawyer, but no sooner had they walked in than they were confronted by cello music, amber lights, white tablecloths and a wine list.

"It was funny," Speiser said. "We just knew we couldn't do it." Within minutes they were eating fried chicken at a "down and dirty" place down the road.

Kim, 28, who is now married, was flustered in part because he saw someone he knew at the Italian restaurant. "I was kind of worried that word might get out," he said. "This is weird, and now there is a witness maybe."

Dinner with a friend has not always been so fraught. Before women were considered men's equals, some gender historians say, men routinely confided in and sought advice from one another in ways they did not do with women, even their wives. Then, these scholars say, two things changed during the past century: an increased public awareness of homosexuality created a stigma around male intimacy, and at the same time women began encroaching on traditionally male spheres, causing men to become more defensive about notions of masculinity.

"If men become too close to other men, then they are always vulnerable to this accusation of, 'Oh, you must be gay,' " said Gregory Lehne, a medical psychologist at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine who has studied gender issues. At the same time, he added, "When you have women in the same world and seeking equality with men, then all of a sudden issues emerge in the need to maintain the male sex role."

And thus a simple meal turns into social Stratego. Some men avoid dinner altogether unless the friend is coming from out of town or has a specific problem that he wants advice about. Otherwise, grabbing beers at a bar will do just fine, thank you.

Other men say dinners may be all right, but never brunch, although a post-hangover meal taking place during brunch hours is OK. "The company at that point is purely secondary," explained Steven Carlson, 29, a public relations executive in Chicago.

Almost all men agree that beer and hard alcohol are acceptable man date beverages, but wine is risky. And sharing a bottle is out of the question. "If a guy wants to get a glass of wine, that's OK," said Rob Discher, 24, who moved to Washington from Dallas and has dinner regularly with his male roommate. "But there is something kind of odd about splitting a bottle of wine with a guy."

Other restaurant red flags include coat checks, busboys who ask, "Still or sparkling?" and candles, unless there is a power failure. All of those are fine, however, at a steakhouse. "Your one go-to is if you go and get some kind of meat product," explained James Halow, 28, who works for a leveraged buyout firm in San Francisco.

Cooking for a friend at home violates the man date comfort zone for almost everyone, with a possible exemption for grilling or deep-frying. "The grilling thing would take away the majority of the stigma because there is a masculine overtone to the grill," Discher said.

And man dates should always be Dutch treat, men agree. Armen Myers, 28, a lawyer in New York who is an unabashed man dater, remembers when he tried to pay for dinner for a friend. "I just plopped out the money and didn't even think about it," Myers said. "He said, 'What are you doing?' And I'm like: 'I was going to pay. What's the big deal?' And he said something like, 'Guys don't pay for me,' or 'No one pays for me.' There was a certain slight power issue."

When attending a movie together -- preferably with explosions or heavy special effects, never a romantic comedy -- guys prefer to put a nice big seat between each other.

Men who avoid man dates are often puzzled by the suggestion that they might like to spend time with male friends. "If you're buddies with another guy, there shouldn't be any work involved," Halow of San Francisco said. Which is why many men say that a successful man date requires a guy to demonstrate concern without ever letting on.

When man daters socialize with non-man daters, the activities always fall to the lowest common denominator. Myers, of New York, remembers how he would ask his roommate, Jonathan Freimann, out for dinner by himself. But Freimann would instinctively pre-empt, by asking other guys along.

"If I had known he wanted to spend one-on-one time, I would have," Freimann explained, adding that group dinners had simply seemed "more fun." (The two had dinner in San Diego last week.)

Jeffrey Toohig, 27, is a more reliable bet for Myers. They regularly have dinner together to discuss women, jobs and whatever else is on their minds. Toohig, who is looking for a job helping underdeveloped countries, divides his male friends into two groups: "good friends who I go out one on one with, and guys I go out with and we have beers and wings." And, he pointed out, dinner with Myers doesn't make his girlfriend jealous, the way dinners with his female friends do.

All men, however, agree that one rule of guy-meets-guy time is inviolable: If a woman enters the picture, a man can drop his buddies, last minute, no questions asked.

Oh, man. This is so true. Even here in Japan, especially among foreigners.
 
Well apparently I'm not allowed to go see Sin City with my buddy tomorrow because it would be considered a man-date, I'd better call and give him the bad news.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
Cooking for a friend at home violates the man date comfort zone for almost everyone, with a possible exemption for grilling or deep-frying.
:lol
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
I don't feel awkward on a man-date until the accidental blowjob. That'll sure screw up a friendship.

"Oh man, I'm not even gay but this art just is such a turn on! Dali makes me horny!"
 

Dragmire

Member
This is the kind of thing that annoys me. I have a lot of guy friends, but I feel like a lot of them are uptight when it comes to social activities.
 

Brannon

Member
...

Who the fuck makes this shit up, and who the fuck actually takes it seriously? Metrosexual was bad enough. Man-Dates?

Stupid.
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
DJ Brannon said:
...

Who the fuck makes this shit up, and who the fuck actually takes it seriously? Metrosexual was bad enough. Man-Dates?

Stupid.

Wow... awfully hostile. You got something to hide? :)
 

Socreges

Banned
I ate dinner with a friend at a restaurant on fucking Davie St.* last week. He also paid for both of us. :lol

It never occured to me (or him, I'm sure) that our sexuality was in danger.

*a notoriously homosexual street
 

Brannon

Member
Nah, this goes the same for 'activitst judges', 'flip-floppers', 'insurgents'; whatever. Why do they do this, and more importantly, WHO are they?
 

Zensetsu

Member
While the article goes way over the top, i can sorta see where its coming from. Like i'll go hang out with a friend, but allways with the pretense of "doing shit" wether its playing a new game or watching a movie or buying stuff. And then just bum around or hang out afterwards.


hahaha the title of this thread cracks me up, sounds like some 60's horror B movie.
 

nfreakct

Member
Mike Works said:
Well apparently I'm not allowed to go see Sin City with my buddy tomorrow because it would be considered a man-date, I'd better call and give him the bad news.

Sin City is fine because it has action, violence, and naked woman. But if you're going to go watch Fever Pitch with your friend you might as well wear a gay pride shirt and carry a purse with you to the theatre.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
I went on a man date to see before sunset :lol

I didn't even think it was weird untill I tried to explain the story of the movie to my girlfriend later :lol
 
:lol Oh man, that article is funny, some points are kinda true, though i find the term man date stupid, becasue I too hang out, but fuck, I dont pay for my freinds, unless there short on cash or something, but damn me and my freind go to movies all the time (last was Sin City) and we always sit with a buffer zone when possable. That point about the girl had me laughing.

whytemyke said:
I don't feel awkward on a man-date until the accidental blowjob. That'll sure screw up a friendship.

"Oh man, I'm not even gay but this art just is such a turn on! Dali makes me horny!"

OMG, :lol

~Black Deatha
 

Socreges

Banned
Black Deatha said:
but damn me and my freind go to movies all the time (last was Sin City) and we always sit with a buffer zone when possable.
That seems a little excessive. Are you afraid you might touch his elbow?
 
DJ Brannon said:
...

Who the fuck makes this shit up, and who the fuck actually takes it seriously? Metrosexual was bad enough. Man-Dates?

Stupid.

Side-effect of homosexuals getting respect; all the sudden, you're seeing more out of the closet, and more information about gay people is in the public knowledge in general. You get from this some straight guys seriously self-concious with their buddies from thinking that "people will think we're gay". /rolleyes

Seriously, men used to bearhug each other without a thought; remember Ian McKellan saying how he was worried about that scene in RotK with the 3 Hobbits jumping into Frodo's sickbed when he came to? Same shit.
 

MrCheez

President/Creative Director of Grumpyface Studios
Forgotten_Taco said:
Oh man I saw "In Good Company" with guys, does that make us gay? Or is it different if there were three of us?

I was only there for Scarlett, I don't know about you... fag!!
 
Article said:
Before women were considered men's equals, some gender historians say, men routinely confided in and sought advice from one another in ways they did not do with women, even their wives. Then, these scholars say, two things changed during the past century: an increased public awareness of homosexuality created a stigma around male intimacy, and at the same time women began encroaching on traditionally male spheres, causing men to become more defensive about notions of masculinity.

So because women left the kitchen, anything that we say that's not "OMG I LOVE SPORTS" or some variation thereof makes us gay? I can think of only one possible solution to all this.

Women, I think you know what I mean!
 

capslock

Is jealous of Matlock's emoticon
That is some of the dumbest shit I have ever read, American males need to get over their homophobia and realize that a real man doesn't give a shit about what others might think.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I go on a "man date" pretty much every weekend..oh well.

I will admit that I split up my friends. There are my guy friends that I pretty much hang out with every weekend to talk about life, shoot some pool, and have a good time. And then I have my friends who I only call to pick up chicks or get the scoop on the parties. Some guys are too macho to talk about life with, they just don't get it. I don't think talking about your problems with your friends makes you a "bitch." But some guys still think that.

I remember one time my friend went with me to open a new bank account. We were going to hang out afterwards anyway, so it was just a small errand I had to run. I knew the bank teller thought we were a couple, I guess it was odd for two guys to come into a bank and open up an account. They even asked if it would be a joint account. :lol

The buffer zone at the movies is an iffy issue. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't. There is one thing that I NEVER do with a guy at the movies....sharing popcorn. I don't know what it is, but it just seems wrong on so many levels. The idea of another guy's sweaty paws mixing with the salt and butter is too much for me to handle. But that might be more of a germaphobia thing, and not homophobia.
 

OmniGamer

Member
While i'm glad to see a majority of replies here indicate that most of you guys are secure in your sexuality, it doesn't mean that "by and large", most heterosexual males are on guard when around other guys, "without the crutch of business or sports"(and i'd add TNA cruising to that as well). If they weren't, they wouldn't feel the need to scoff at almost everything outside of that crutch as "Dude, that's so gay". How many commercials or sitcoms have a sight gag that involves two guys in an ambiguous situation just as someone is coming through the door?
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
Forgotten_Taco said:
Oh man I saw "In Good Company" with guys, does that make us gay? Or is it different if there were three of us?

No, two may be a man-date, but three or more is like rolling with a gang.
 
Socreges said:
I ate dinner with a friend at a restaurant on fucking Davie St.* last week. He also paid for both of us. :lol

It never occured to me (or him, I'm sure) that our sexuality was in danger.

*a notoriously homosexual street

Given there are restaurants with items such as '12" of Glory" on the menu, I gotta say I'm surprised. :lol

The sometimes funny rep of that particular street in Vancouver aside, what kind of article is this? I mean "man date," that's just silly. I hang out with my friends, and I've bought a meal or two while out, and no one was uncomfortable.
 

aoi tsuki

Member
Willco said:
Does buying lots of buffalo wings and drinking booze and watching TV count as a Man Date?
With BBQ sauce or a saffron pesto?

i used to have dinner with a friend of mine after work, catch up on whatever, discuss school, etc. We never had a problem with it, though we did used to joke that people probably thought we were a couple, with him being effiminate and indecisive and me telling him what to do.
 

Socreges

Banned
ManDudeChild said:
Given there are restaurants with items such as '12" of Glory" on the menu, I gotta say I'm surprised. :lol
:lol

It was actually the Cactus Club. Which ironically enough had some of the hottest waitresses/hostesses I've ever seen. *boggle*
 
Socreges said:
:lol

It was actually the Cactus Club. Which ironically enough had some of the hottest waitresses/hostesses I've ever seen. *boggle*

Well the street isn't without its own sense of irony :lol
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I think the entirity of a young man's (18-24) life is made up of man-dates. Its called socialization ... network building.


Why do New York writers feel the need to feminize everything that straight males do? What is the point? First you had the whole idea of metrosexualism ... now this man-date crap. Oy vey.
 
Yeah, serioualy, what the hell? I hang out one-on-one with quite a few friends, and we never talk sports. (Actually, the one common theme among my friends and me is that sports are gay, K1/Rally/F1/boxing/Ultimate Fighting excuded.) Hell, one of them's gay and another's bi -- really, it never crosses my mind until people bring it up that I should be concerned for my appearance of heterosexuality. I have a fucking wedding ring on and I'm no great prize in the looks department; if people wanna consider us a "couple", I ain't gonna be the one insulted.

Now if I ever PictoChat in public, well, then I'll understand if I get called a "fag".


EDIT: I just noticed that the article was penned by notorious New York editor-gadfly-social climber Jennifer "8". (They actually made a movie based on her professional social whoredom.) She's obviously trying to coin a meme; do everyone a favor and reject it NOW NOW NOW.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Drinky Crow said:
K1/Rally/F1/boxing/Ultimate Fighting excuded

So wait, you only like to discuss the sports that produce the most mud and sweat on the male body? ;)
 
When I went on vacation to Saudi Arabia a few years back, I remember seeing two grown men walking around the mall holding hands (probably in their 40's), tightly. So weird, but I guess it wouldn't be if I grew up there.
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
this is extremely true amongst my friends. They always must have a minumim of 3 people, if its only 2, they just call the whole thing off.

The absolute funniest time was when my two roomates wanted to go out for chinese, and wanted me to come to avoid the whole mad date thing. But I hate chinese food so I didn't want to go. They couldn't bring themselves to go when it was just two of them so they started offering me money to come along :lol
 

Socreges

Banned
(Actually, the one common theme among my friends and me is that sports are gay, K1/Rally/F1/boxing/Ultimate Fighting excuded.)
What a coincidence that all the sports you excluded happen to be ones that you can't be picked last in during gym class... :D
 

kablooey

Member
Heh, I go on lots of man-dates. And I don't have a girlfriend, so I should probably be worried about my sexuality at this point, right? Well, guess not. Friends are friends, imo...shouldn't matter whether they're guy or girl, though things are obviously gonna be more flirtatious with girls around. :p

(Btw, I thought this thread would be about Pres. Bush, no joke.)
 

Doth Togo

Member
kumanoki said:
Weird eyes for straight guys who just want to go out

By JENNIFER 8. LEE
THE NEW YORK TIMES

The delicate posturing began with the phone call.

The proposal was that two buddies back in New York City for a holiday break in December meet to visit the Museum of Modern Art after its major renovation.

"He explicitly said, 'I know this is kind of weird, but we should probably go,' " said Matthew Speiser, 25, recalling his conversation with John Putman, 28, a former classmate from Williams College.

The weirdness was apparent once they reached the museum, where they semi-avoided each other as they made their way through the galleries and eschewed any public displays of connoisseurship. "We definitely went out of our way to look at things separately," recalled Speiser, who has had art-history classes in his time.

"We shuffled. We probably both pretended to know less about the art than we did."

Eager to cut the tension following what they perceived to be a slightly unmanly excursion -- two guys looking at art together -- they headed directly to a bar. "We couldn't stop talking about the fact that it was ridiculous we had spent the whole day together one on one," said Speiser, who is straight, as is Putman. "We were purging ourselves of insecurity."

Anyone who finds a date with a potential romantic partner to be a minefield of unspoken rules should consider the man date, a rendezvous between two straight men that is even more socially perilous.

Simply defined, a man date is two heterosexual men socializing without the crutch of business or sports. It is two guys meeting for the kind of outing a straight man might reasonably arrange with a woman. Dining together across a table without the aid of a television is a man date; eating at a bar is not. Taking a walk in the park together is a man date; going for a jog is not. Attending the movie "Friday Night Lights" is a man date, but going to see the Jets play is definitely not.

"Sideways," the Oscar-winning film about two buddies touring the central California wine country on the eve of the wedding of one of them, is one long and boozy man date.

Although "man date" is a coinage invented for this article, appearing nowhere in the literature of male bonding (or of homosexual panic), the 30 to 40 straight men interviewed, from their 20s to their 50s, living in cities across the country, instantly recognized the peculiar ritual even if they had not consciously examined its dos and don'ts. Depending on the activity and on the two men involved, an undercurrent of homoeroticism that may be present determines what feels comfortable or not on a man date, as Speiser and Putman discovered in their squeamishness at the Modern.

Jim O'Donnell, a professor of business and economics at Huntington University in Indiana, who said his life had been changed by a male friend, urges men to get over their discomfort in socializing one on one because they have much to gain from the emotional support of male friendships. (Women understand this instinctively, which is why there is no female equivalent to the awkward man date; straight women have long met for dinner or a movie without a second thought.)

"A lot of quality time is lost as we fritter around with minor stuff like the Final Four scores," said O'Donnell, who was on the verge of divorce in the mid-1980s before a series of conversations over meals and walks with a friend 20 years his senior changed his thinking. "He was instrumental in turning me around in the vulnerability that he showed," said O'Donnell, who wrote about the friendship in a book, "Walking With Arthur." "I can remember times when he wanted to know why I was going to leave my wife. No guy had ever done that before."

While some men explicitly seek man dates, and others flatly reject them as pointless, most seem to view them as an unavoidable form of socializing in an age when friends can often catch up only by planning in advance. The ritual comes particularly into play for many men after college, as they adjust to a more structured, less spontaneous social life. "You see kids in college talking to each other, bull sessions," said Peter Nardi, a sociology professor at Pitzer College in Claremont, Calif., who edited a book called "Men's Friendships." "But the opportunities to get close to another man, to share and talk about their feelings, are not available after a certain age."

The concern about being perceived as gay is one of the major complications of socializing one on one, many straight men acknowledge. That is what Speiser, now a graduate student at the University of Virginia, recalled about another man date he set up at a highly praised Italian restaurant in a strip mall in Charlottesville. It seemed a comfortable choice to meet his roommate, Thomas Kim, a lawyer, but no sooner had they walked in than they were confronted by cello music, amber lights, white tablecloths and a wine list.

"It was funny," Speiser said. "We just knew we couldn't do it." Within minutes they were eating fried chicken at a "down and dirty" place down the road.

Kim, 28, who is now married, was flustered in part because he saw someone he knew at the Italian restaurant. "I was kind of worried that word might get out," he said. "This is weird, and now there is a witness maybe."

Dinner with a friend has not always been so fraught. Before women were considered men's equals, some gender historians say, men routinely confided in and sought advice from one another in ways they did not do with women, even their wives. Then, these scholars say, two things changed during the past century: an increased public awareness of homosexuality created a stigma around male intimacy, and at the same time women began encroaching on traditionally male spheres, causing men to become more defensive about notions of masculinity.

"If men become too close to other men, then they are always vulnerable to this accusation of, 'Oh, you must be gay,' " said Gregory Lehne, a medical psychologist at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine who has studied gender issues. At the same time, he added, "When you have women in the same world and seeking equality with men, then all of a sudden issues emerge in the need to maintain the male sex role."

And thus a simple meal turns into social Stratego. Some men avoid dinner altogether unless the friend is coming from out of town or has a specific problem that he wants advice about. Otherwise, grabbing beers at a bar will do just fine, thank you.

Other men say dinners may be all right, but never brunch, although a post-hangover meal taking place during brunch hours is OK. "The company at that point is purely secondary," explained Steven Carlson, 29, a public relations executive in Chicago.

Almost all men agree that beer and hard alcohol are acceptable man date beverages, but wine is risky. And sharing a bottle is out of the question. "If a guy wants to get a glass of wine, that's OK," said Rob Discher, 24, who moved to Washington from Dallas and has dinner regularly with his male roommate. "But there is something kind of odd about splitting a bottle of wine with a guy."

Other restaurant red flags include coat checks, busboys who ask, "Still or sparkling?" and candles, unless there is a power failure. All of those are fine, however, at a steakhouse. "Your one go-to is if you go and get some kind of meat product," explained James Halow, 28, who works for a leveraged buyout firm in San Francisco.

Cooking for a friend at home violates the man date comfort zone for almost everyone, with a possible exemption for grilling or deep-frying. "The grilling thing would take away the majority of the stigma because there is a masculine overtone to the grill," Discher said.

And man dates should always be Dutch treat, men agree. Armen Myers, 28, a lawyer in New York who is an unabashed man dater, remembers when he tried to pay for dinner for a friend. "I just plopped out the money and didn't even think about it," Myers said. "He said, 'What are you doing?' And I'm like: 'I was going to pay. What's the big deal?' And he said something like, 'Guys don't pay for me,' or 'No one pays for me.' There was a certain slight power issue."

When attending a movie together -- preferably with explosions or heavy special effects, never a romantic comedy -- guys prefer to put a nice big seat between each other.

Men who avoid man dates are often puzzled by the suggestion that they might like to spend time with male friends. "If you're buddies with another guy, there shouldn't be any work involved," Halow of San Francisco said. Which is why many men say that a successful man date requires a guy to demonstrate concern without ever letting on.

When man daters socialize with non-man daters, the activities always fall to the lowest common denominator. Myers, of New York, remembers how he would ask his roommate, Jonathan Freimann, out for dinner by himself. But Freimann would instinctively pre-empt, by asking other guys along.

"If I had known he wanted to spend one-on-one time, I would have," Freimann explained, adding that group dinners had simply seemed "more fun." (The two had dinner in San Diego last week.)

Jeffrey Toohig, 27, is a more reliable bet for Myers. They regularly have dinner together to discuss women, jobs and whatever else is on their minds. Toohig, who is looking for a job helping underdeveloped countries, divides his male friends into two groups: "good friends who I go out one on one with, and guys I go out with and we have beers and wings." And, he pointed out, dinner with Myers doesn't make his girlfriend jealous, the way dinners with his female friends do.

All men, however, agree that one rule of guy-meets-guy time is inviolable: If a woman enters the picture, a man can drop his buddies, last minute, no questions asked.

Writing shit like this adds to the issue she is discussing. Instead of labels, Miss "8," just call it two dudes hanging out.

Jennifer 8 has written articles about the game industry, online piracy as well as a number of other issues. She/he likes to stir things up a great deal, making much more out of issues than in reality.

Jennifer 8 deserves the Jayson Blair award for NY Times excellence in bullshit.
 
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