PS3 Graphics - Stuck with Shader 3.0 for 5-6 years ?

doncale

Banned
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20938

and

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20937

Earlier NVIDIA held a Financial Analysts Session at Credit Suisses’ First Boston Semiconductor & Capital Equipment Conference, and as is often the case a few details could be gleaned on their upcoming parts. When asked of the high end refreshes for both Spring and Fall NVIDIA's Vice President of Investor Relations and Communications, Michael Hara had this to say:

....... “Well, from an architecture standpoint we’re just still at the beginning of shader model 3.0. And we need to give the programmers out there some time to continue to really learn about that architecture. So in the spring refresh what you’ll see is a little bit faster versions...

...... I think you’ll see the industry move up a little bit in performance. But I don’t think you’ll see any radical changes in architecture. I doubt you’ll see any radical changes in architecture even in the fall. When we came out with GeForce 6, we tend to create a revolutionary architecture about every actually two years. And then we derive from it for the following time. So even the devices that we announced this fall, that will be I think a lot more powerful than the ones we actually had a year ago. Architecturally we’re still in the shader model three type era.”


Although it appears that NVIDIA have been tweaking their codenames, and we don’t yet know exactly how they are internally classifying these new parts we can surmise that the Spring part mentioned is what has previously been rumoured to be “NV47” whilst the fall product could be what was previously thought to be known as NV50. NVIDIA have said before that the GeForce 6 generation could last for 3 years in the low end, whilst there will be a slightly greater architectural shift in the high end in the intervening time period and, given these timescales, we had previously surmised that this high end refresh would still be Shader Model 3.0 based, possibly bring more flexibility, architectural performance benefits and being more orthogonal, and at present this would still appear to be the case.

On the discussion of silicon process nodes Mike later mentioned this: “If you look at when we go to 90, my guess will be is we’ll have one or two products this year going from 90 in the second half”. On the face of it this would tend to confirm our suspicions that the Spring refresh will be 110nm based, as much of the GeForce 6 product line is now, whilst the high end fall product will likely be 90nm.


One question that does remain is that of the graphics for Playstation 3 as NVIDIA have already stated that the graphics is an alteration on their next generation part. Given that the design for a console part must be finished many months before the product is due to ship should Sony be seeking an early 2006 ship date the feature capabilities may match up with the Fall product which would suggest Shader Model 3.0 equivelent capabilities.


before this, I was think PS3 graphics architecture would be of the Shader Model 4 generation. definitally ahead of Xbox2's Shader Model 3.0 ++. because (1.) Nvidia has been ahead of ATI in getting out more advanced feature sets including shader model generations. and (2.) the PS3 is coming out a little later than Xbox2.

but now it seems that there is at least a GOOD chance that Xbox2 and PS3 will both have some form of extended Shader Model 3.0 implemenation.

that's not to say that PS3 will not have Shader Model 4.0, but it looks less likely.
 
Shader Model 3.0 is good enough, what we need now is fast implementations of that model :)
Let's also remember PS3 will likely not have any kind of vertex shading support on the GPU. Vertex shading will be handled by CELL and there's no doubt a SPE can be seen as capable of a very advanced vertex shading model.
 
Doom_Bringer said:
All speculation...

Honestly don you should keep this techno stuff at beyond 3d


why? don't we see at least 5-10 tech related threads on GAF everyday, and dozens open dozens of tech related replies in various threads? why should I be the one to shut up? :lol
 
Nostromo said:
Shader Model 3.0 is good enough, what we need now is fast implementations of that model :)
Let's also remember PS3 will likely not have any kind of vertex shading support on the GPU. Vertex shading will be handled by CELL and there's no doubt a SPE can be seen as capable of a very advanced vertex shading model.


well, I would agree with that. Shader Model 3.0 is probablygood enough. especually when you concider that PS2 has Shader Model ZERO support :lol - and even Xbox Shader Model is pretty weak. 1.1 or something. and also, from what I hear, not all Shader Model 3.0s are created equally. example: ATI SM 3.0 implementation in R520 is said to be significantly superior to Nvidia's SM3.0 in NV40.


but still, the reason why I created this thread, is that, weren't most of the techies here thinking that PS3 would have SM4.0 ? since Nvidia is usually more forward-thinking that ATI (even though has been ATI whipping Nvidia in execution and performance)
 
doncale said:
but still, the reason why I created this thread, is that, weren't most of the techies here thinking that PS3 would have SM4.0 ?
IMHO..no, they weren't,
since Nvidia is usually more forward-thinking that ATI (even though has been ATI whipping Nvidia in execution and performance)
It doesn't seem to me last ATI chips are much faster than last NVIDIA chips, in fact I believe R420 and NV40 are mostly on par, with NV40 being more efficient on a per clock basis and implementing a more advanced shading model (3.0 vs 2.0+).
If PS3 GPU will not have any kind of vertex shading engine for real it would be nice to know how many pixel pipelines are they going to pack on a single GPU.
Xenon's GPU should devote something like 90-100 MTransistors for eDram..what if NVidia is not going to have eDram on their GPU and use all those transistors to add more ALUs? :)
Dumb question..all those ALUs could be bandwith starved and we still don't know anything about PS3 GPU memory interface and resources.
 
Go Go Ackman! said:
I advocated MORE tech-related threads, and least it's interesting discourse instead of threads like "Nintendo is dying" fanboy shit
But they are :D

I'm not much of a tech head so who makes the Shader Models that both graphics card companies seem to be using? Is it MS?
 
Go Go Ackman! said:
I advocated MORE tech-related threads, and least it's interesting discourse instead of threads like "Nintendo is dying" fanboy shit
100% agreed.
People need not be afraid of actually learning something about this hobby of ours.
 
doncale said:
well, I would agree with that. Shader Model 3.0 is probablygood enough. especually when you concider that PS2 has Shader Model ZERO support :lol - and even Xbox Shader Model is pretty weak. 1.1 or something. and also, from what I hear, not all Shader Model 3.0s are created equally. example: ATI SM 3.0 implementation in R520 is said to be significantly superior to Nvidia's SM3.0 in NV40.


but still, the reason why I created this thread, is that, weren't most of the techies here thinking that PS3 would have SM4.0 ? since Nvidia is usually more forward-thinking that ATI (even though has been ATI whipping Nvidia in execution and performance)

I never thought PS3 would have SM4.0. NV50 is coming out this year and since longhorn isn't scheduled to release till some time into next year, NV50 is guaranteed to be some sort of SM3.0 card with some SM4.0 bits incorporated into it. PS3 will be the same, SM3.0 with some SM4.0, but not full SM4.0 compliancy. This is much like Nvidia did with the XBox having a GeForce3/4 hybrid chip. ATi IMO has been ahead of Nvidia for some time now. Yes NV40 does sport SM3.0 now while ATi uses SM2.0b, but we all know it was ATi's decision to extend the life of the R300 architecture for one more round because frankly SM3.0 wouldn't be very utilized in a very widespread manner yet. As you can see with NV40, yeah it sports SM3.0, but how many games right now actually utilize it? and to what extent?

But personally I believe ATi's R500 chip in Xenon will be more advanced than the modified NV50 in the PS3. ATi has been sitting on their tech and working on it for so long. I mean R520 is essentially still an R300 (to an extent) but sporting SM3.0. ATi's basically had a couple years work on R500 since it was renamed from R400, which was to be released after the Radeon 9700 series ended. Also since the equivilent PC chip to the R500, ATi's R600 release is supposed to coincide with the release of Longhorn, it leads me to believe their tech is more advanced than Nvidia's fall product of this year (which will also be in PS3).
 
How could PS3 or Xbox2 have SM4.0 when it isn't "done" yet? And we don't know when it will be done. DX10? WGF2.0?
 
Shader MOdel 3? That's still pretty advanced as is - I'd go that far to say that mayb 50% of pc users are still on Shader Model 2 cards - this is good news. 5-6 years is a long time and the graphics should look pretty nice til end of PS3 gen. That said, I'm not a tech guru but I'm pretty sure at this point in time, SM3 is state of the art. Consoles work very differently from PCs, you'll definitely get extremely nice visuals out of this.
 
Odnetnin said:
Shader MOdel 3? That's still pretty advanced as is - I'd go that far to say that mayb 50% of pc users are still on Shader Model 2 cards - this is good news. 5-6 years is a long time and the graphics should look pretty nice til end of PS3 gen. That said, I'm not a tech guru but I'm pretty sure at this point in time, SM3 is state of the art. Consoles work very differently from PCs, you'll definitely get extremely nice visuals out of this.

I don't disagree with you. aka, i agree with you :)
 
SM3.0 is a PC/MS centric tech. I'm not even sure with a custom Sony-Nvidia GPU (with or without vertex shaders), you could even apply SM3.0 terminolgy to PS3...

If it's a custom OpenGL ES 2.0 api, it may have extended funtionality...
 
Doom_Bringer said:
PS3 will use GeForce 6?

What?

Posts like these are the reason we shouldn't have these threads on GAF :P j/k

But seriously, it's a Geforce 7 part.

No one was expecting the hardware to provide equivalent support to anything more than SM3.0+ (I'll refer to SM3.0/4.0 from here on out, but as far as PS3 is concerned I mean "equivalent" support). SM4.0 hardware doesn't yet exist. Xenon will be SM3.0+ too. Differences may arise in how much beyond SM3.0 each goes, whether nVidia takes advantage of their extra time, whether Sony manufacture on 65nm or not, whether the chip has to accomodate vertex shading capability etc. etc.

There's really nothing new in this article...
 
well, I would agree with that. Shader Model 3.0 is probablygood enough. especually when you concider that PS2 has Shader Model ZERO support - and even Xbox Shader Model is pretty weak. 1.1 or something. and also, from what I hear, not all Shader Model 3.0s are created equally.
If you want to draw analogies(there's no such thing as direct comparison in this case), PS2 Vertex functionality is somewhere between VS2.0 and 4.0. And if CELL SPEs will be doing the same thing in PS3, it would cover most of VS4.0 functionality there.

Still remains to be seen what functionality NVidia GPU will actually cover (and also recent iterations of "directx shadermodel" include other functionality outside shading in the "definition", which is where some of that "++" comes from in upcoming ATI parts).
 
Fafalada said:
And if CELL SPEs will be doing the same thing in PS3, it would cover most of VS4.0 functionality there.
Probably SPEs will cover even more than that, stuff like tessellation included. Even if not everything will be as efficient as it can be in a GPU (vertex texturing?)

Still remains to be seen what functionality NVidia GPU will actually cover (and also recent iterations of "directx shadermodel" include other functionality outside shading in the "definition", which is where some of that "++" comes from in upcoming ATI parts).
That's the most interesting part :) I'm excited to know if PS3 GPU will bring something new on the table..
I would like some new AA algoriìtmh.. :D
 
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