Support NeoGAF

[ErasureAcer]

www.votenader.org

In a move right before the Green National Convention in Milwaukee this week where a Green Candidate will be nominated for President...Ralph Nader taps into the Green Party for his VP.

If the Greens now endorse Nader's Independent run for President...Nader would gain access to 22 state ballots for the General Election...right now I believe he has no access.

I myself was going to vote for the Green Party candidate in my state(Minnesota)...so we'll see what happens here. Looks like I may be voting for Ralph. Camejo is a very intelligent man. I watched the California Governor recall debate and he totally owned it.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Did the media have a vote on not to cover Ralph Nader or something? Not that I care as long as he doesn't impede Bush's exit out of the white house.

 

[shoplifter]

Pretty much.

 

[samus4ever]

I plan on voting for Nader. I can't stand Kerry or Bush.

 

[ErasureAcer]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/21/nader.camejo/index.html

CNN covered this but it isn't on there front page...gotta click the politics link.

Interesting that Nader and Camejo have 179 Green Party Delegates together for the convention and David Cobb has 240.5...only 61.5 difference with 173.5 uncommitted delegates. Should make for an interesting decision by the Greens this week.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Oooh, that owns right there. Nader for Prez in '04. No doubt in my mind now, I'm voting Nader if he's on the ballot, or I'm not voting at all. Kerry/Whoever couldn't carry Nader/Camejo's jockstraps. I too remember Camejo from the Cali Gov Debate, and he owned everyone that night. He's for national health and fixing the trainwreck that's SS/MC. If libs can't get on the bandwagon now, then they deserve to suffer under Bush for 4 more. Kerry's a turd, Nader's the way to go. 2-party system my ass. PEACE.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Vote for Nader and you're voting for Bush. Nader is stealing democrat votes, and he sure as fucking hell isn't going to win. Pat yourself on the back. Yay to another 4 years of pointless wars, insane spending, and idiotic speeches.

 

[ErasureAcer]

exactly why we need instant runoff voting but Kerry is such a dickwad that he doesn't even support it.

We have the stupidest fucking election system around...blame the game not the players.

 

[belgurdo]

I plan on voting for Nader. I can't stand Kerry or Bush.

Do not let 2000 happen again

 

[Kettch]

Vote for Nader and you're voting for Bush.

What's a vote for Bush then? Two votes for Bush?

 

[ErasureAcer]

Do not let 2000 happen again

That's what Democrats should have been telling themselves when they nominated a boring, same on the issues, uninspiring candidate with John Kerry in 2004.

 

[Teknopathetic]

Attaboy, Erasure! Get back at this stupid administration by keeping it stupid again!

It's BRILLIANT.

 

[Malleymal]

Kerry needs to just pick up Nader as his Vice president, and go at it that way... these two will bump heads... and bush will be back and the apocolypse will be upon us

 

[human5892]

Kerry needs to just pick up Nader as his Vice president

Good lord, no.

There are people out there right now who are wary of Kerry because they think he is too Librul. Toss a Nader in there and you've got yourself a candidate who is dead in the water.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Kerry needs to just pick up Nader as his Vice president, and go at it that way... these two will bump heads... and bush will be back and the apocolypse will be upon us

Haven't you heard. John Kerry thinks he is somehow this liberal god and is going to pick a more "moderate" person as his running mate. Haha...this is Al Gore all over again...Kerry is going to pick a fuckin' moron like Lieberman for his running-mate.

The only possible way I will vote for Kerry is if he picks Kucinich as his running mate but Kerry is so fucking stubborn in his positions to appeal to the middle that he won't budge. What he fails to realize is that with his ability to raise money and a decent message(Kucinich's or Nader's for that matter)...he could inspire those 100 million people who not vote to vote for him.

If Nader/Camejo does get the Green endorsement...Kerry better pick Kucinich or Nader or else he loses the general election. It will be 2004 all over again because Kerry is too fucking stubborn in keeping the status quo that he goes against his own personal convictions(Like the death penalty for instance...Kerry's against it but hasn't said jack shit of what he'd do to help get rid of it as President...chickenshit).

Kerry will lose because like Gore, he has no backbone...nothing inspiring about him at all. Oooo...$7 min. wage...let's all go put the down payment on that new car we always dreamed of. John Kerry is pathetic.

 

[human5892]

Haven't you heard. John Kerry thinks he is somehow this liberal god and is going to pick a more "moderate" person as his running mate. Haha...this is Al Gore all over again...Kerry is going to pick a fuckin' moron like Lieberman for his running-mate.

The only possible way I will vote for Kerry is if he picks Kucinich as his running mate but Kerry is so fucking stubborn in his positions to appeal to the middle that he won't budge. What he fails to realize is that with his ability to raise money and a decent message(Kucinich's or Nader's for that matter)...he could inspire those 100 million people who not vote to vote for him.

If Nader/Camejo does get the Green endorsement...Kerry better pick Kucinich or Nader or else he loses the general election. It will be 2004 all over again because Kerry is too fucking stubborn in keeping the status quo that he goes against his own personal convictions(Like the death penalty for instance...Kerry's against it but hasn't said jack shit of what he'd do to help get rid of it as President...chickenshit).

Kerry will lose because like Gore, he has no backbone...nothing inspiring about him at all. Oooo...$7 min. wage...let's all go put the down payment on that new car we always dreamed of. John Kerry is pathetic.

As you yourself said, Erasure, don't hate the player -- hate the game. John Kerry knows that if he gets his moderate-liberal self much more to the left, he'll run the risk of losing the more conservative people who already are dubious to him. We've seen more leftist candidates before like Michael Dukakis. They don't work. Hell, even Ralph Nader -- I know he doesn't have the funding that some of the big guys do, but if his messages were truly inspiring and what people wanted to hear, wouldn't he naturally become popular? What about Kucinich? Why didn't he take the lead in the primaries instead of ending up in almost dead last? Kerry's concerned about actually getting elected. I agree that it sucks, and even that, as a popular website has suggested, he may even be a bit of a douchebag, but that's how he's got to do it. I have accepted the fact that its going to be another "lesser of two evils" election, and that it very well may be that for a long time to come.

As far as the minimum wage raise goes, I think $7, up from the travesty that is $5.15, is a good start. Maybe it doesn't go far enough, but why risk asking for too much and not getting anything? Politics is like a good marriage -- it's about about compromise. Kerry seems to know that, albeit perhaps at the cost of being a clearly-defined individual or more than just a business-as-usual politician.

As I said, Kerry's not the greatest because of this, and the whole situation just sucks overall. But it's prudent to be a realist.

 

[sc0la]

Essentially no third party candidate has any sort of realistic chance without some sort of IRV system. Also with antequated electoral college system you are not even thrwoing your vote away unless you live in a "battleground" state.

Not that I firmly believe in this throwing your vote away shit anyways, if you don't believe in the policies of either candidate you still have to vote for one or have your vote labeled invalid? that isn't freedom. I voted for Nader on 2000 in an attempt to help him garner a sufficient % of votes to be eligible for federal matching funds this year, Gore won my state, I didn't give shit to bush.

Camejo was cracking some skulls in the recall debates, but again, untill at least a state institutes som sort of IRV we won't see any significant third party candidate penetration.

 

[ErasureAcer]

$7 phased in over 3 years. Woopdedo.

And Kucinich lost because the fucking media gave him NO attention whatsoever. They all labeled Dean as some fucking Progressive liberal(when in fact he is pretty conservative) and that was their "progressive" character they wanted to portray to the media.

In January alone...I still recall the statisitic...national broadcast news...Kucinich received less than 1 percent of stories about him. This is a TV nation. While Kucinich may have had a bit more about him in liberal newspapers(He got some decent press in the Minneapolis Star Tribune here...while not that great in the more conservative St. Paul paper)...he received jackshit in the national broadcast news.

The media killed Kucinich. Heck, the media created and killed Dean too. The media is controlling the election. Heck, even Ralph Nader's VP choice doesn't even get a frontpage link on CNN. The media is doing a good job of keeping people turned off to politics and making this a 2 candidate race....fuck the media, fuck John Kerry's unprogressive and chickenshit stances.

And the reality of the situation is that if John Kerry is elected...nothing changes. Gays still have no federal rights. 12 percent of the country still lives in poverty. Israel still gets away with war crimes. Our jobs continue to go overseas because of NAFTA/WTO. We still have the death penalty. We're still in Iraq spending hundreds of billions of dollars. We continue to outspend THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED in weaponry. We will continue to have a joke for an election system where people can rule without a majority of people supporting him/her. We will continue to have a piece of shit energy policy dependent on oil. It's a joke...it really is...anyone who likes to see these things continue by all means vote for John Kerry. I disagree with all of them. John Kerry is a loser and that he will do, he will lose because he is just like Al Gore...nothing inspiring about his political idealogy....just status quo while there are many things to be solved yet Kerry has no answers for them. Nader, Kucinich and Camejo all have answers...heck...they even recognize the problems which Kerry does not. Kerry and his supporters are living in a fantasy world if they think electing Kerry will help solve the USA's problems.

This country was founded on ideas but when we have status quo Kerry...where the status quo sucks...and George W. Bush's religious crusades...we have no ideas to send this country in the right direction. If Nader can get in the debates...heck...he might stand a chance. I still recall Jesse Ventura only having 15% the day of the election but he won with 38% that night. Anything can happen but people being AFRAID to vote for progress...then progress will never happen. Amazing how that works.

Kerry will lose.

 

[sefskillz]

I, too, am only picking Kerry if he takes Kucinich. I can't stand the 'a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush' way of thinking, even though it is true. I should be able to vote for who I want in office, not play some game with my vote. I don't want to pick the "lesser evil that has a shot at winning", I want to pick who I want in office.

 

[shoplifter]

I, too, am only picking Kerry if he takes Kucinich

Otherwise, I'm voting Lolbertarian.

 

[Cooter]

Vote with your heart.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Demos are getting like their conservative counterparts, trying to guilt you into a vote. The way I see it is that the Democratic party can continue to lose election after election until they start to take people like me more seriously. Kerry is uninspiring. Kooch is awesome. I too will vote fro Kerry if he teams with Kucinich, but it won't happen. Everything I wanted to say about it's already been said. Nader is there to shake things up, to get people to pay attention again. The 2-party system needs to go, or the Dems better start getting liberal again. PEACE.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

We have the stupidest fucking election system around...blame the game not the players.

The players don't use their powers to change the game, so sucks to them.

What about Kucinich? Why didn't he take the lead in the primaries instead of ending up in almost dead last?

Because the media had written him off months before as a fourth-tier candidate and barely cover him. Before I started looking up information on him myself, I saw more of him on The Daily Show than anything.

 

[Evolution VIII]

And the reality of the situation is that if John Kerry is elected...nothing changes. Gays still have no federal rights. 12 percent of the country still lives in poverty. Israel still gets away with war crimes. Our jobs continue to go overseas because of NAFTA/WTO. We still have the death penalty. We're still in Iraq spending hundreds of billions of dollars. We continue to outspend THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED in weaponry. We will continue to have a joke for an election system where people can rule without a majority of people supporting him/her. We will continue to have a piece of shit energy policy dependent on oil. It's a joke...it really is...anyone who likes to see these things continue by all means vote for John Kerry. I disagree with all of them. John Kerry is a loser and that he will do, he will lose because he is just like Al Gore...nothing inspiring about his political idealogy....just status quo while there are many things to be solved yet Kerry has no answers for them. Nader, Kucinich and Camejo all have answers...heck...they even recognize the problems which Kerry does not. Kerry and his supporters are living in a fantasy world if they think electing Kerry will help solve the USA's problems.

And you think that Ralph Nader will somehow be able to solve all of these problems (except for the jobs continuing overseas. That's not a problem)?

And AFAIK, Gays do have federal rights, just not marriage rights.

 

[SickBoy]

Homer: America, take a good look at your beloved candidates. They're nothing but hideous space reptiles. [unmasks them]

[audience gasps in terror]

Kodos: It's true, we are aliens. But what are you going to do about it? It's a two-party system; you have to vote for one of us.

[murmurs]

Man1: He's right, this is a two-party system.

Man2: Well, I believe I'll vote for a third-party candidate.

Kang: Go ahead, throw your vote away.

[Kang and Kodos laugh out loud]

-SB

 

[Alcibiades]

I'm pretty conservative, and would vote for Bush over Kerry, but I'm voting for Nader because of his stance on the environment and global warming...

didn't Nader say that the take from each party was almost equal anyway...

 

[Evolution VIII]

didn't Nader say that the take from each party was almost equal anyway...

Yes, they take away from both parties equally, but obviously the candidate that would be most affected is a Democratic candidate because Nader's leanings are still liberal.

 

[human5892]

$7 phased in over 3 years. Woopdedo.

It's better than what it is now. Or maybe Kerry should ask for $10/hr and get laughed out of the Senate?[/quote]

And Kucinich lost because the fucking media gave him NO attention whatsoever. They all labeled Dean as some fucking Progressive liberal(when in fact he is pretty conservative) and that was their "progressive" character they wanted to portray to the media. In January alone...I still recall the statisitic...national broadcast news...Kucinich received less than 1 percent of stories about him. This is a TV nation. While Kucinich may have had a bit more about him in liberal newspapers(He got some decent press in the Minneapolis Star Tribune here...while not that great in the more conservative St. Paul paper)...he received jackshit in the national broadcast news. The media killed Kucinich. Heck, the media created and killed Dean too. The media is controlling the election. Heck, even Ralph Nader's VP choice doesn't even get a frontpage link on CNN. The media is doing a good job of keeping people turned off to politics and making this a 2 candidate race....fuck the media, fuck John Kerry's unprogressive and chickenshit stances.

The media covers what people want to know about. If people truly wanted to know about Kucinich, he would've inevitably showed up in media reporting. The media did not make Howard Dean; he was an asterisk in the polls until he built his huge grassroots following. Time magazine didn't put him on their cover because they had some kind of agenda -- they put him on when they saw he was what the public wanted to hear about. Kucinich could've built the same grassroots following the same way. Same with Nader. Same with anyone with a little bit of money and messages people want to hear. Clearly, Kucinich was not one of those people. Kucinich didn't lose because the media didn't cover him -- the media didn't cover him because he was a loser.

And the reality of the situation is that if John Kerry is elected...nothing changes. Gays still have no federal rights. 12 percent of the country still lives in poverty. Israel still gets away with war crimes. Our jobs continue to go overseas because of NAFTA/WTO. We still have the death penalty. We're still in Iraq spending hundreds of billions of dollars. We continue to outspend THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED in weaponry. We will continue to have a joke for an election system where people can rule without a majority of people supporting him/her. We will continue to have a piece of shit energy policy dependent on oil. It's a joke...it really is...anyone who likes to see these things continue by all means vote for John Kerry. I disagree with all of them. John Kerry is a loser and that he will do, he will lose because he is just like Al Gore...nothing inspiring about his political idealogy....just status quo while there are many things to be solved yet Kerry has no answers for them. Nader, Kucinich and Camejo all have answers...heck...they even recognize the problems which Kerry does not. Kerry and his supporters are living in a fantasy world if they think electing Kerry will help solve the USA's problems.

As someone else said, Nader or Kucinich would magically fix these problems?

I am getting sick and tired of this hippie approach to politics -- "All it takes is one man with some dreams and who knows what's really wrong out there, and he'll fix it all." Senators, Congressmen, relations with foreign leaders, the mindset of the majority of Americans who seemingly are quite comfortable with either one party or the other -- almost none of these will significantly change if some radical candidate somehow makes his way into the office. Politics is about compromise and concessions. One only needs to look at history to see that. There's a reason why our stupid two-parties-that-are-very-similar system has recurred just about every four years since the beginning of our elections, and it's not because of some secret media conspiracy to only cover certain candidates.

Kerry will lose.

He might, he might not. But if you think that having Kucinich or Nader on his ticket would cause him to win, you are deeply, deeply, mistaken.

 

[Pimpwerx]

human: The point you and others miss is that you need to start somewhere. The 2-party system is the fucking cancer in the system. Two choices? Are there only ever two choices? Dubya is the greatest example of why the system doesn't work. A fucking puppet is president. These forums used to rant and rave about Sony's monopoly in the gaming market, and the benefits of competition. We need that in politics more than anywhere. By cracking this 2-party bullshit and introducing more parties, we can start making changes. What impulse is there to change campaign finance? Everyone benefits from it...except the people. Why tackle Medicare? Most Congressmen will be retired or dead by the time the wheels fully come off the wagon. That's why we have have a Reagan circle-jerk scheduled within a day of his passing, but somehow, everyone's out to lunch on Soc. Security and Medicare.

You gotta start somewhere. Nader and the Greens. That's as good a start as any IMO. He's an outsider with good ideas. Camejo is even better IMO. They won't win, but they'll hopefully make a greater noise. Maybe more and more each time. Eventually, we'll have a fully legit 3rd party. And that could pave the way for more Independants. One can hope at least. By voting along bullshit party lines, nothing's gonna change. 4 years under Bush isn't gonna be that much worse than 8 years under Kerry. Bush sucks, but what's Kerry gonna do that'll make it that drastically better? I'm not convinced. At least voting for Nader will remind people again of a third option. PEACE.

 

[Kuramu]

the commission said candidates could only be included if they had a chance of winning a majority in the Electoral College or had 15 percent support in the electorate in the polls.

a self fulfilling prophecy. the people running around saying that a 3rd party vote is a wasted vote are the very reason it is true. the dems and pubs have everyone brainwashed because it benefits them to do so.

i think we need 2 elections, the first to get the top 2 candidates from among all parties, and a second from among the top 2. it would rid us of this terrible pattern of only voting against the guy we _don't_ want instead of who we do, and 3rd parties would finally be able to break the strangle hold the 2 party system has on our government

 

[Triumph]

What's really sad to me is that the two choices are like choosing between dogshit and horseshit. You're still eating shit, either way.

The modern day Democrats have become so bought and paid for that it's fucking sad. They have no backbone to stand up for what they SHOULD be standing up for. They are a shitty opposition party, because half the time THERE IS NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE between them and the Republicans. If Gore had shown any personality, if he had gone on the offensive AT ALL during the debates with Bush and made that stupid little man-child look like the halfwit that he is, Gore would have owned Bush at the polls. But they all want to play it safe and cater to the center, so Gore and Bush had the shittiest debates of all time. "My stance is this." "Wow, I agree. What do you think about issue A? I think we should do this." "Hey, me too!"

Honestly, I don't know who the hell I'm going to vote for. I keep hoping against hope that Kerry will give me some real reason(I'm not Bush isn't enough) to vote for him. But I don't think he will, he'll play it safe like they always do. I almost want to vote for Bush out of a perverse spite, plus my belief that if he is re-elected he will be impeached and drug out of office forcibly before he finishes a second term. I'd like to think such a scandal would finish the Republican Party for good, but I'm too much a student of history and politics to believe that.

 

[sc0la]

a self fulfilling prophecy. the people running around saying that a 3rd party vote is a wasted vote are the very reason it is true. the dems and pubs have everyone brainwashed because it benefits them to do so.

i think we need 2 elections, the first to get the top 2 candidates from among all parties, and a second from among the top 2. it would rid us of this terrible pattern of only voting against the guy we _don't_ want instead of who we do, and 3rd parties would finally be able to break the strangle hold the 2 party system has on our government

There doesn't need to be, and never will be two elections:: Instant Runoff Voting.

Though primaries serve what you are talking about. That is where they pick the two candidates

 

[human5892]

Pimpwerx and Kuramu, I agree that the system is flawed and that neither party is really all that fit to lead, but I disagree that the two-party system can be overcome in the state that it's in. Is the lack of voting for a third-party due to fear of a wasted vote a self-fufilling prophesy? Undoubtedly. But I don't think that's likely to change anytime soon, no matter how many underground networks and support groups are rallied, or how charismatic a third-party choice. The majority of Americans -- not even mentioning the electoral college system -- just would not go for a third-party choice. The proof is in the history of our country.

However, if the system were to change -- maybe more emphasis on popular voting, for example, and the introduction of a runoff-voting-like system -- then the tables might turn. In its current state, however, the sad truth is that a third-party vote really is a throwaway vote (unless by coincidence your third party vote enables another candidate you liked equally as much to win)...self-fufilling prophesy or not.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

The reason Democrats aren't giving Liberals a reason to vote for them is because they're banking on the whole "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush" plan. So they're thinking, we already have the left vote, let's try and steal some middle/Bush votes now.

It's a bullshit way of going about things and it just may backfire in nasty fashion.

I'm awaiting Kerry's running mate, as of right now Nader all the way.

 

[Pimpwerx]

human said:
However, if the system were to change -- maybe more emphasis on popular voting, for example, and the introduction of a runoff-voting-like system -- then the tables might turn. In its current state, however, the sad truth is that a third-party vote really is a throwaway vote (unless by coincidence your third party vote enables another candidate you liked equally as much to win)...self-fufilling prophesy or not.

Well, when will the system change? What will be the catalyst for change? It hasn't happened in 200 years. I don't know if it will happen in the next 200 so long as people keep voting as they do. The majority of people are oblivious to what's going on. Waiting for change to happen won't help a thing. Throwaway vote or not, it's being proactive. This is my first time voting. I've been fairly apathetic about the whole thing. I don't think my vote counts much b/c I hold a real pessimism towards the system. But I figured this year that voting for someone I actually wanted would be better than not voting at all. At least now I'm making an effort for change. PEACE.

 

[human5892]

Well, when will the system change? What will be the catalyst for change? It hasn't happened in 200 years. I don't know if it will happen in the next 200 so long as people keep voting as they do.

I don't have the answers for this, and I agree that I don't know if it will ever change. But I also don't think that enough people will ever get behind a third party candidate (who is different enough from the Dem and Repub candidates) to get him/her elected in the current system. After all, Ross Perot currently holds the record for third-party votes, and he received 18.85% of the vote -- respectable, but nowhere near approaching election-winning territory. He also received exactly zero electoral college votes.

 

[Kuramu]

There doesn't need to be, and never will be two elections:: Instant Runoff Voting.

Though primaries serve what you are talking about. That is where they pick the two candidates

no, primaries do not do the same thing, because they just give us 1 dem and 1 pub. with a wider field, 3rd parties might not get elected right away, but they would be more influencial on the positions held by those we elect. eventually, with the exposure they would get, within a few elections, they could be viewed by the public as viable and worthy of their votes. since the first vote wouldn't be final, people would be more willing to vote as they feel, instead of through threat.

i'm curious to hear more about this instant runoff you mentioned... how exactly does it work?

 

[Phoenix]

What's a vote for Bush then? Two votes for Bush?

Perhaps in Florida it is


Anyways its very unfortunate that the Nader/Camejo ticket is about as effective as the Gamespy/IGN ticket. The dynamics of America politics mean that these guys really just don't stand a chance.

 

[etiolate]

Do not let 2000 happen again

Vote for Nader and you're voting for Bush. Nader is stealing democrat votes, and he sure as fucking hell isn't going to win. Pat yourself on the back. Yay to another 4 years of pointless wars, insane spending, and idiotic speeches.

Funny. I think if you are voting for someone you truly don't believe in, then you deserve what you get.

If you had to read what some of you say in political threads... I think you'd get a nice cool gun.

 

[Wolfy]

For the record, to hell with those who disregard third parties, I'm voting libertarian.