Support NeoGAF

[Phoenix]

Sigh.

If there is one thing that needs to be changed about our system of government, its how people slip in crap onto bills that should pass. This one calls for the creation of a national ID system AND tossing of state drivers license standards in favor of one national system. The bill calls for these new IDs to be both machine readable with the option for them being RFID readable (i.e. remotely).

Strangely enough, instead of ANYONE lobbying against this sort of behavior like they have for striking down the actually useful filibuster - everyone (who bothered to show up to vote) went along for the ride. Of course no one wants to go on record for voting against money for our troops since the Democrats and Kerry handled the issue so incompetently so it passes with a 100-0 vote and now its up to the governers of the states to strike this down as unconstitutional in some way.

To quote kent brockman

"I've said it before and I'll say it again, Democracy doesn't work"

Reference Simpsons Episode 117

 

[xsarien]

Don't blame me, blame everyone who's voted GOP in the past 8 years or so.

 

[Tabris]

We may have our sponsorship scandals and such, but once again, I thank *insert diety figure of your choice cause we're a multicultural nation* I live in Canada.

 

[android]

Have fun

 

[alejob]

Whats wrong with an ID card? I have a Costa Rican ID and its no big deal. Ofcourse my wallet is getting full of cards, I don't need some more. Is that your beef too?

 

[Pimpwerx]

I need to thank the person that recommended NYC Teaching Fellows. B/c I'm going in there for 3 years to get my Master's and certification, and then I'm getting the hell out of this country. And living in NYC, I will not need a driver's license. I'm keeping my Florida license, and I'll just drop off the grid after that. Fuck this shit. PEACE.

 

[demi]

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

[Space Age Playboy]

Oh the horror. People will get ID cards. :rolleyes

 

[xsarien]

Oh the horror. People will get ID cards. :rolleyes

Do a little reading on RFID and then get back to us, m'kay?

 

[Phoenix]

Do a little reading on RFID and then get back to us, m'kay?

And identity theft, the rights of the states, and the problem with tthe national id card being the same as the drivers license (not everyone drives in this country - nor should they).

The punishing lack of civics in this country will be the end of us all

 

[skip]

I just did a little reading, and it sounds to me like it's just establishing a set of national criteria for state-issued IDs, as opposed to an all-out national card everyone has to carry at all times.

 

[ChrisReid]

Of course no one wants to go on record for voting against money for our troops since the Democrats and Kerry handled the issue so incompetently so it passes with a 100-0 vote and now its up to the governers of the states to strike this down as unconstitutional in some way.

"governers of the states to strike this down as unconstitutional in some way" ?

State courts, not governors, strike down laws as unconstitutional.. but they would have no say in a national law such as this. Only the federal/supreme courts would have jurisdiction. Was this just the senate bill that passed? If so, it still has to go through the house. Some things that easily pass one chamber never get close to making it through the other, and vice versa.

 

[nathkenn]

can someone please post a positive thread...

 

[Fuzzy]

We may have our sponsorship scandals and such, but once again, I thank *insert diety figure of your choice cause we're a multicultural nation* I live in Canada.

Amen brother.

 

[impirius]

Source?

I'm looking through the text of H. R. 1268 on thomas.loc.gov and don't see anything of the sort so far...

 

[Phoenix]

"governers of the states to strike this down as unconstitutional in some way" ?

State courts, not governors, strike down laws as unconstitutional.. but they would have no say in a national law such as this. Only the federal/supreme courts would have jurisdiction. Was this just the senate bill that passed? If so, it still has to go through the house. Some things that easily pass one chamber never get close to making it through the other, and vice versa.

Actually not quite. Courts don't have "standing", so they cannot go to court on their own behalf. The governors are the ones who are harmed by the legislation and thus have standing in the courts and go to court to have it struck down. So while a court would do the actual declaring of this thing unconstitutional, the governors would have to bring the case.

 

[sprsk]

can someone please post a positive thread...

ill make one just for you honey.

edit: sorry, couldnt find any good news

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

"governers of the states to strike this down as unconstitutional in some way" ?

State courts, not governors, strike down laws as unconstitutional.. but they would have no say in a national law such as this. Only the federal/supreme courts would have jurisdiction. Was this just the senate bill that passed? If so, it still has to go through the house. Some things that easily pass one chamber never get close to making it through the other, and vice versa.

if it somehow makes the running of a state government difficult the governors should have some ground, if I remember correctly.

 

[Phoenix]

Source?

I'm looking through the text of H. R. 1268 on thomas.loc.gov and don't see anything of the sort so far...

Looking at the wrong one - HR 418 is what you want:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:3:./temp/~c10938bpz2::

 

[drohne]

the rfid thing is chilling. do conservatives no longer value privacy? but it's more chilling that a measure this significant was never really voted on. that kent brockman quote is perfectly apposite.

 

[Triumph]

And identity theft, the rights of the states, and the problem with tthe national id card being the same as the drivers license (not everyone drives in this country - nor should they).

The punishing lack of civics in this country will be the end of us all

Why... for a minute Phoenix old chum, you sounded just like somebody I know...

And you'll all be pleased to know, yesterday I started what will apparently be a year plus process in hopes of moving to Vancouver with the intent of becoming a Canadian citizen. Cool, eh?

 

[Tabris]

Vancouver is awesome.

Only negatives is the price of living here (probabaly one of the most expensive places to live in Canada) and homeless situation (there's just a lot, so you get hit up for change all the time downtown, guaranteed at least twice a day if you work downtown)

...but it's beautiful, has a decent night scene, very multi-cultural and the usual "being in canada" benefits.

 

[Amused_To_Death]

That ought to show them terrorists, what are they gonna do now?

 

[Phoenix]

Don't bother. I said the same thing the last time we had this thread, and nobody listened. I think people prefer to panic.

(2) IDENTIFICATION CARD- The term `identification card' means a personal identification card, as defined in section 1028(d) of title 18, United States Code, issued by a State.

(a) In General- To be eligible to receive any grant or other type of financial assistance made available under this title, a State shall participate in the interstate compact regarding sharing of driver license data, known as the `Driver License Agreement', in order to provide electronic access by a State to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other States.
(b) Requirements for Information- A State motor vehicle database shall contain, at a minimum, the following information:
(1) All data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards issued by the State.
(2) Motor vehicle drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses.

(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:
(1) The person's full legal name.
(2) The person's date of birth.
(3) The person's gender.
(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person's address of principle residence.
(7) The person's signature.
(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

Sounds like a national ID card to me. The purpose of the legislation is to have an ID that is materially the same across all of the states based on standards set by the Department of Homeland Security.

 

[StoOgE]

yeah, and this is another one of those "the states dont have to do it, unless they like money"

I think California or Texas (yeah, not likely) should tell the federal government to screw off one of these days.. I mean, either state would be the worlds 5th largest economy.. so with increased state taxes I dont see why they couldnt just support themselves and ignore all of these federal mandates.

 

[StoOgE]

So where's the RFID part? That's what I was referring to.

In any case, my driver's license already has all that stuff. It won't make much difference that I can see.

subsection 9.

 

[impirius]

From my (admittedly brief) reading of the bill, I still see nothing about RFID or national IDs. I don't like the legislation, but it's not quite as bad as it's made out to be. Here are the effects I see:

- State driver's licenses must conform to minimum standards, and states must make sure applicants are not illegal aliens, which means
-- a metric assload of work for state DMVs, and
-- a more complicated process when registering for a driver's license

- If states don't conform to the standards:
-- they will not receive any of the appropriations in the bill, and
-- their citizens' licenses will not be accepted by federal agencies, which would prohibit them from boarding airplanes, among other things

- The Department of Homeland Security has authority to oversee license standards, including "machine-readable data" included on cards

That last point is what gives the impression that RFID could be included in a federal license standard. Has there been any indication that this will be the case?

 

[Phoenix]

I thought that was the barcode that's already on there.

subsection 9 is what allows the legal mandating of RFID for these IDs. Since the states no longer control the IDs (there were other states talking about the RFID craziness in the past) and are only responsible for the issuance of them, those in congress who are calling for RFID on the national ID can get it pushed through. THAT has always been what everyone is concerned about (amongst the acts other problems) - the new legislation give Homeland Security an authority that we really don't want them to have. That and it usurps the states for no good reason.

 

[Phoenix]

From my (admittedly brief) reading of the bill, I still see nothing about RFID or national IDs.

Its one ID that is linked to all of the other state databases at the national level which is only issued by the states yet controlled by the Department of Homeland Security. The states then become responsible for the enforcement of the IDs, but don't have any say in their content or how they can be used.

 

[AntoneM]

fuck this, my AZ drivers license is good through 2046 and no, that's not a typo. I don't want to have to go through the hassle of getting another one just because some dick fuck in Washington tells me I have to. I'd update it time and again but at MY leasure not the Feds.

 

[Killthee]

That last point is what gives the impression that RFID could be included in a federal license standard. Has there been any indication that this will be the case?

Let me quote an article:

The government is now moving forward with plans to insert RFID-like chips into all new American passports beginning later this year, and, perhaps even sooner, into government employee ID cards as well.

Source

 

[King Jippo]

I need to thank the person that recommended NYC Teaching Fellows. B/c I'm going in there for 3 years to get my Master's and certification, and then I'm getting the hell out of this country. And living in NYC, I will not need a driver's license. I'm keeping my Florida license, and I'll just drop off the grid after that. Fuck this shit. PEACE.

Holy shit, the gov is out to get me too! When I go to bars or clubs some of them take my ID and put it in this little machine that takes my picture so it can be put into the giant government supercomputer of potential blackmail targets for terrorist related activity but they always tell me they're just gonna use the info so I can be put on the mailing list and get free drinks and VIP passes and access to special features on their website but I still haven't gotten my VIP passes which leads me to believe that they gave my info to the military who will take me away to the next police state we create because they don't dance or drink over there and I asked my boyz the other day whaz up with dat or maybe they just sold my info to telemarketers so theyll call me and not know that I'm on the do not call list so the government can double dip by collecting fines as well all to fund their secret wars making us all slaves to walmart mcdonalds and ign.

 

[StoOgE]

I like how people laugh this stuff off as a giant conspiracy theory...

 

[Ristamar]

 

[Sergenth]

Airports already regard each potential flyer as a potential terrorist, (especially the disabled... so many potential weapons can be stored in those crutches and wheelchairs) so it's not like the National ID card can make going through the terminal anymore less freedom-filled.

Still, the National ID card idea is balls... and they know it.


One of the proposed "functions" of the National ID is that it will keep up safe from terrorists.

If we assume that law enforcement will actually believe that, then they are going to place great importance in the card, cause, "Hey! Checking your ID prevents you from committing terrorism!"

- Losing the ID card in between checkpoints will be very bad, and mean much delays and holding in security areas, especially for non-whites.

- Having your ID stolen by people, deliberately to get you in trouble between checkpoints will be a problem. Whoops! Now you're a terrorist suspect! Prepare to be extradited -- hope you like Egypt. You do NOT want to be somebody who steps off a plane without your ID.

- We are asked to trust the people who make security checks on our cards... trust them NOT to abuse their authority to allow us to pass. This goes for fake cards made at DMVs with crooked employees.

RFID (Radio Frequency IDentification) opens up more gaping security holes.

- all data, encrypted or unencrypted on the card, can be signalled and copied by any device which can record and reproduce radio signals. There is no way to hide the actual "dump your info, ID card" radio command when the command is broadcast in all directions. Since the cards need to be scanned by a hundred thousand readers in all sorts of security checkpoints across the country, the data must be universally unencryptable... or non-encrypted since it's going to be signalled and transferred so much anyway.

- RFID "Thieves" can signal cards from people and steal their data, allowing them to then walk right through "Passive" checkpoints that only use RFID to detect if you have a card, to see if you are someone on the criminal/terrorist/child molesation/lib'rul watch list. Visual confirmation of a card by human eyes + an additional computer check is the only way to concievably monitor (but not prevent an attack by) suspected terrorists.

If RFID becomes the electronic reading standard on the National ID card, we are in for more "Oops... we need more security to protect oourselves" measures from eager companies immediately afterward, which I suspect is the plan. Those guys LOVE to make the moneez. Next, we'll see mandatory armbands that denote what grade we scored on our Patriotism test.

 

[shoplifter]

Don't forget that the 9/11 crew were here legally, and could have gotten one of these things anyway. Those terrists won't get one though!

 

[midnightguy]

Oh the horror. People will get ID cards. :rolleyes

enjoy being tracked everywhere you go, and on your way to being a slave.

 

[argon]

This wasn't just slapped onto the budget bill haphazardly.

James Sensenbrenner, the powerful chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, and a sizeable group of House Republicans were successfully holding up last year's intelligence bill until a "no legal IDs for illegal aliens" provision was added. To solve this impasse, a compromise was reached to allow the intelligence bill to pass as it was, without immigrant provisions, and in return Sensenbrenner's provisions would be attached as an "easy rider" to a 2005 bill. This is how politics works folks, whether you like it or not.

From what i've read so far, these federal standards may make it much more difficult for a potential Al-Queda to open bank accounts, attend flight school or other higher education, and rent vehicles, without resorting to actions like ID theft or fraud, which could put them "on the radar" by authorities.

The RFID provision is troubling and should be watched, however, its not as bad as you are all making it out to be. If they try to put RFIDs in I am confident enough public outrage would force the DHS to relent on that idea.

Not to derail the subject too much, but the real purpose of this bill will be preventing states from issuing official, legal IDs to illegal aliens. Sensenbrenner was the only congressman with the guts to stand up for the citizens of border states such as california who bear the brunt of 3 million illegals entering the country each year, and I applaud him for this. And he is a representive from Wisconsin. Yes folks, our California Republican caucus are a bunch of weaklings toting the Bush line.

If i recall correcly there have been three attempts by our liberal-dominated California legislature to give drivers licenses to illegals: one of them signed by Grey Davis but revoked, two of them vetoed by Schwarzennegger. Hopefully this bill preempts any further attempts to pass this ridiculous law.

For the record, I have nothing against immigration through LEGAL processes, and think our immigration laws should be relaxed and encouraged. However I strongly oppose an open border policy.

 

[tetsuoxb]

I love how everyone is freaking out about this...

Basically it is standardizing state ID cards, and making them machine readable. That is not a bad thing.

The complaints about RFID are petty because of RFID's limited range. If you are really worried that big brother is going to walk around with portable RFID readers looking for known criminals, etc. just wrap your new ID in tin foil.

A standardized ID system is a good thing. It will do a great deal to eliminate fake IDs. Everyone remembers the buddy in college with the New Jersey ID. Clubs in Miami already have machine readers for Florida IDs anyways, this will just make those ids more useful.

RFID will also speed me up in customs, because I will not be waiting for the visual scanner on my passport anymore. Place it on the table and the customs agent will see my passport in his hand and on his screen nearly instantly.

Privacy advocates are a bit paranoid to begin with, so I never expected them to like this, but ultimately I think it will do more to help than hurt.

 

[fart]

This wasn't just slapped onto the budget bill haphazardly.

James Sensenbrenner, the powerful chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, and a sizeable group of House Republicans were successfully holding up last year's intelligence bill until a "no legal IDs for illegal aliens" provision was added. To solve this impasse, a compromise was reached to allow the intelligence bill to pass as it was, without immigrant provisions, and in return Sensenbrenner's provisions would be attached as an "easy rider" to a 2005 bill. This is how politics works folks, whether you like it or not.

From what i've read so far, these federal standards may make it much more difficult for a potential Al-Queda to open bank accounts, attend flight school or other higher education, and rent vehicles, without resorting to actions like ID theft or fraud, which could put them "on the radar" by authorities.

The RFID provision is troubling and should be watched, however, its not as bad as you are all making it out to be. If they try to put RFIDs in I am confident enough public outrage would force the DHS to relent on that idea.

Not to derail the subject too much, but the real purpose of this bill will be preventing states from issuing official, legal IDs to illegal aliens. Sensenbrenner was the only congressman with the guts to stand up for the citizens of border states such as california who bear the brunt of 3 million illegals entering the country each year, and I applaud him for this. And he is a representive from Wisconsin. Yes folks, our California Republican caucus are a bunch of weaklings toting the Bush line.

If i recall correcly there have been three attempts by our liberal-dominated California legislature to give drivers licenses to illegals: one of them signed by Grey Davis but revoked, two of them vetoed by Schwarzennegger. Hopefully this bill preempts any further attempts to pass this ridiculous law.

For the record, I have nothing against immigration through LEGAL processes, and think our immigration laws should be relaxed and encouraged. However I strongly oppose an open border policy.

i never thought i'd seriously say this but motherfucking straw man

 

[argon]

i never thought i'd seriously say this but motherfucking straw man

How so? Read the actual bill (source, Congressional Research Analysis). The vast majority of provisions in it deal with immigration, particularly implementing suggestions by the 9/11 Commission. It is useless to discuss the merits of the entire bill without at least taking that into consideration.

The original poster expressed his disgust at rider bills like these. I totally agree. But I also quite clearly addressed the reason the bill was attached as a rider in this case, with little to no congressional debate on the matter. The fact is, there was VERY contentious debate on this bill in House/Senate committees, before the intelligence reform act of 2004. The intelligence bill was in fact delayed because House republicans wanted the Real ID Act to be part of it, and this delay could have postponed the Intelligence bill to 2005. The Bush administration used a variety of strongarm tactics on Sensenbrenner and the immigration-reform faction of the Republican party, and after about 5 days a compromise was reached that allowed for a relatively easy (but sneaky) passage this year.

 

[Mike Works]

Stay the fuck away from Canada

(unless you voted liberal)

(or in Raoul's case Libertarian or whatever the fuck)

 

[Drozmight]

Stay the fuck away from Canada

(unless you voted liberal)

(or in Raoul's case Libertarian or whatever the fuck)

I voted libertarian too, can I join your club?

 

[swoon]

I just did a little reading, and it sounds to me like it's just establishing a set of national criteria for state-issued IDs, as opposed to an all-out national card everyone has to carry at all times.

yup

 

[mrklaw]

the RFID stuff is low range anyway, so only useful for swiping instead of barcode reading where they need your info.

And those of you who are so sensitive about the government tracking you - how many credit cards do you have, or store cards, or loyalty cards? There are hundreds of companies out there trading in your details. Government is the least of your worries.

 

[Culex]

I have no problem with a National ID card. I do have a problem with RFID; it's really scary technology.

It doesn't matter if it's low range, either. If the readers that pick up the signal are networked to a massive government database, it won't mean a damn thing as to where you are as long as the signal is read somewhere.

 

[mrklaw]

If the readers that pick up the signal are networked to a massive government database, it won't mean a damn thing as to where you are as long as the signal is read somewhere.

thats a pretty big if, and one of the favourite assumptions of conspiracy theorists. Why assume that the government cares about you? and if it does, it can already track you through you using credit cards, ATMs, tapping your phone, doing whatever the fuck it wants.

this will be used to make boring shit need slightly less paperwork.

 

[StoOgE]

Stay the fuck away from Canada

(unless you voted liberal)

(or in Raoul's case Libertarian or whatever the fuck)

bish wont let me live in his basement anymore because I kept telling him about my black friends and the NBA.. can I live in yours?

 

[xsarien]

Privacy advocates are a bit paranoid to begin with, so I never expected them to like this, but ultimately I think it will do more to help than hurt.

You're being pretty fucking glib about all of this. Privacy advocates are paranoid now? I'd like to hear you say that after it's your credit card information that's pulled out of a database by some hacker.

Food for thought: Chicago's police department would like to expand a pilot program of 30 cameras city wide to over 2,000.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.05/crime.html?tw=wn_tophead_6

 

[Exis]

The other problem is that the state DMV's are not able to afford this, the checking of the various forms of ID will add manhours that the cash-strapped states cannot afford as it is.

-Exis