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Republican official orders Nader included on Florida presidential ballot

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Prospero

Member
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A senior Republican official has ordered the radical campaigner Ralph Nader's name be reinstated on the ballot for the crucial presidential vote in Florida, a serious blow to the prospects of a Democratic victory in the November election.

The last-minute intervention by Glenda Hood, the Florida secretary of state, triggered outrage from the Democrats, who deployed an army of lawyers to keep Mr Nader off the ballot in the vital swing state. President George Bush won the 2000 election by around 500 votes while Mr Nader took 100,000. The Democrats say that cost them Florida and the presidency.

Mrs Hood said she was obliged to overrule a judge's preliminary court ruling because Hurricane Ivan might prevent a final hearing, set for Wednesday. Democrats retorted that Ivan was not even due to strike the state capital, Tallahassee, where the judge sits.

Florida looks set to revisit its inglorious role in the 2000 polls, when electoral roll irregularities, ill-designed ballot papers and malfunctioning punch-card machines led to weeks of recounts and legal battles.

Democrats say Mr Nader's alliance with the Reform Party, a populist juggernaut in the 1990s now reduced to a shadow of its former self, is to avoid having to collect the 100,000 signatures required to be on the ballot as an independent.

Background: Circuit court judge ruled on September 9 to keep Nader off ballot

In a tactical victory for John Kerry, a Leon County circuit judge issued an emergency order Wednesday night knocking Ralph Nader off Florida's ballot.

"I've never seen, in 40 years, a more pell-mell kangaroo court procedure involving any of our third-party activities," Nader told the Tallahassee Democrat after the ruling by Judge Kevin Davey. "This is nothing more than a judge responding to the political imperatives of a nervous and corrupt Democratic Party."

The ruling stands for now, but could be reversed later.

More background from September 10: Judge deals Florida setback to Nader

Circuit Judge P. Kevin Davey ruled late Wednesday that Nader failed to meet legal qualifications as a minor party candidate. Davey said the Reform Party is not a party under state law, and that Nader did not collect enough valid voter signatures and was not nominated by a party's national convention.

He suggested his temporary order will likely become permanent. "I'm quite confident in the ruling. There's at least 15 reasons as to why they won't qualify, at least 15 that I counted up," Davey said. "If it was one or two, I'd be worried about it, but there's a whole lot of reasons."

State officials must give elections supervisors time to print overseas ballots to mail them by Sept. 18. Florida is under a consent decree with the U.S. Department of Justice requiring it to mail overseas absentee ballots at least 45 days before the election.
 

SKluck

Banned
It's hilarious the only way they think they can win is by preventing someone else from running.

God Bless the USA.
 

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, it's kind of funny. Both parties are super scared of a third party candidate. Sigh. I'm all for third party/alternate parties running. I don't agree with either the Dem or GOP line, to be honest. Sigh. Maybe if one of the sides ran a candidate that I could honestly, whole-heartedly get behind, and not feel weird voting for him (as I will this year, and I seriously don't know what I'll do yet), they wouldn't have a problem with Nader getting his 3% of the popular vote or whatever.

"Nader is the reason Gore lost in 2000!" No, Gore lost because he wasn't much better than Bush. They were both doing shady things to the election, and Bush got the upperhand.

Fuck. I'm so disenfranchised with politics.
 

AirBrian

Member
President George Bush won the 2000 election by around 500 votes while Mr Nader took 100,000. The Democrats say that cost them Florida and the presidency.
No. What cost Gore the election was the major political blunder of losing his home state of Tennessee and Clinton's home state of Arkansas (whom both Clinton won in 1992 and 1996). Had he won these states, Florida would have been a non-issue. But that's something you won't get hardcore Democrats to ever admit. ;)
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
Oh fucking great. Now we can hear the blame laid on Nader for four more years instead of the total and utter incompetence of John Kerry and the democratic party on whole.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
Why can't elections be held through elimination? Keep eliminating candidates by number of votes until only one remains. That would do away with the whole matter of candidates whose chances of winning are zero taking votes that would otherwise go to a candidate with an actual chance of winning.
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
demon said:
Why can't elections be held through elimination? Keep eliminating candidates by number of votes until only one remains. That would do away with the whole matter of candidates whose chances of winning are zero taking votes that would otherwise go to a candidate with an actual chance of winning.
Jesus christ, it's happened...reality TV has crept into the political thought process.

Damn you, Survivor!
 

Cool

Member
demon said:
ELIMICANDIDATE!

This Tuesday on Fox

HAHAHAHAHA!

But, no seriously, that pisses me off that Democrats would accuse Nader of "stealing" potential Kerry votes. I think the independent party should exist and we should have the freedom of choice to vote for independent canidates. It's bull shit that we only have the choice of Republicans and Democrats as likely winners. I'd really like to see the independent parties grow and have chances of winning sometime in my lifetime.
 

Prospero

Member
The issue for me isn't whether or not Nader's on the ballot: as far as that goes, the more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. However, it is troublesome that Nader's presence on the ballot seems to be arguably illegitimate according to Florida state law.
 
demon said:
Why can't elections be held through elimination? Keep eliminating candidates by number of votes until only one remains. That would do away with the whole matter of candidates whose chances of winning are zero taking votes that would otherwise go to a candidate with an actual chance of winning.
Instant runoff voting! Yes, bring it!
 
I'm amused by Nader supporters who think he is just magically entitled to be on every ballot. Get some legitimate signatures on your ballot petitions and stop trying to hijack joke parties like the Reform Party in order to get on ballots.
 

Diablos

Member
capt.sge.jnc06.140904212221.photo00.default-280x380.jpg


"They can vote for Nader? Move the curtain - there's Bush - I'M GOING TO KICK HIS ASS"
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
I don't see what the big fucking deal here is. Florida already had set rules for a potential canidate to be on the election ballot, and Nader didn't meet the requirements. He doesn't get on.
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
Hitokage said:
I don't see what the big fucking deal here is. Florida already had set rules for a potential canidate to be on the election ballot, and Nader didn't meet the requirements. He doesn't get on.

Mrs Hood said she was obliged to overrule a judge's preliminary court ruling because Hurricane Ivan might prevent a final hearing, set for Wednesday. Democrats retorted that Ivan was not even due to strike the state capital, Tallahassee, where the judge sits.

Does she get to do that? Is it retarded for Democrats to try to keep him off or for Republicans to try to put him on the ballot?

*shakes head at anybody overlooking the retardedness of both parties*

This is just fuckin stupid. I blame Ivan the Terrible. Can't we just move Miami up to Savannah and get rid of the rest of Florida? Just, like set off some explosives and drop the hicks into the ocean or something. Take out a few old people and cut down our Medicare expenses? What's the point of Florida, anyway? It's just costing me my taxpayer dollars. If Florida wasn't so fuckin stupid enough to stick it's ass in the Caribbean, we wouldn't have all these problems with hurricanes. Old people and hurricanes. And the Dolphin's uniform. Ugh.

i'm joking. But Florida heat sucks. I'm not retracting that.
 

KingV

Member
demon said:
Why can't elections be held through elimination? Keep eliminating candidates by number of votes until only one remains. That would do away with the whole matter of candidates whose chances of winning are zero taking votes that would otherwise go to a candidate with an actual chance of winning.

Actually that is incorrect. What you are proposing is an instant run off election, where if one candidate does not win, his supporters then go toward their second choice. Supoose there's a system with 3 candidates, A, B, and C.

Suppose that voter preference across the nation breaks down in this manner, from most favored to least favored.

35% prefer A,B,C
33% prefer B,C,A
32% prefer C,A,B

Now, candidate C will have the least number of first place votes, so his votes then run off to candidate A, so candidate A would win the election as the most overall preferred candidate. Now assume that for some reason candidate A becomes *more popular* the preference shifts to:

37% prefer A,B,C
31% prefer B,C,A
32% prefer C,A,B

This time, Candidate B would be eliminated and his votes would transfer to candidate C and C would beat A.

Why is this bad? Because if you notice, candidate C did not become overall more popular, but A became overall more popular thus losing him the election, because he took net votes from the wrong candidate. This example is simplified, as it does not include all possible ranking permutations, but it's not far fetched to think that all permutation would not be equally popular. In this election, if we had a runoff election, most voters who choose President Bush would probably choose Kerry over Nader, most who vote Nader would undoubtedly choose Kerry over Bush. a Nade, Bush, Kerry ticket would be quite rare, as would a Bush, Nader, Kerry. That still leaves four permutations, but it's enough to experience the same result, albeit in a more complex scenario.

Is this "better" than a plurality system? There are less instances of a paradoxical outcome, but this paradoxical outcome is quite a damning argument against a run off system if it came to be. There are no perfect voting schemes involving more than two choices, all can result in paradoxical outcomes given the right circumstances, however, if I made the decision, I'd probably choose some form of max-flow algorithm.

The main advantage of the plurality system is that it's simple to understand. A run off election is still pretty simple, but more convoluted than the plurality system. Max flow system would be even more complex still. Voting theory become even uber cooler in the case of voting for amendments and change to legislation in congress, where the order that things are voted on can substantially change the chances of whether a bill is passed or not, regardless of voter preferences.
 
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