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Retro rip-offs (1up)
- Thread starter TekunoRobby
- Start date
Fishie flop oog
Banned
Anyanka said:
Hmm yeah, my bad
The difference was about 18 months.
Oh and you seem to forget Tekken Tag Tournament and the new Tekken 5 Dark Resurection.
Sega isnt the only one to release updated arcade versions so yes still more Tekkens in less time.
I didn't forget TTT or anything else. It's just that Sega updated VF3 along with Namco updating Tekken 3 so in the end VF4/T4 came out around the same time.
VF, VF Remix, VF 2, VF Kids, VF3, VF3tb, VF4, VF4 Evolution, VF4 Final Tuned
T1, T2, T3, TTT, T4, T5, T5 DR
Look at how they did the main games. VF came out in 93. Tekken in 94. VF2 came out 2 years later in 95 while Tekken 2 came out very quickly after T1 also in 95. From then on every main game was in the same year. T3/VF3 in 97. T4/VF4 in 2001. Various spin offs inbetween. The difference is Namco went straight to Tekken 5 after Tekken 4 while Sega upgraded VF4 twice. It's not that Sega has been working on VF5 since 2001.
VF, VF Remix, VF 2, VF Kids, VF3, VF3tb, VF4, VF4 Evolution, VF4 Final Tuned
T1, T2, T3, TTT, T4, T5, T5 DR
Look at how they did the main games. VF came out in 93. Tekken in 94. VF2 came out 2 years later in 95 while Tekken 2 came out very quickly after T1 also in 95. From then on every main game was in the same year. T3/VF3 in 97. T4/VF4 in 2001. Various spin offs inbetween. The difference is Namco went straight to Tekken 5 after Tekken 4 while Sega upgraded VF4 twice. It's not that Sega has been working on VF5 since 2001.
SolidSnakex
Member
Shompola said:
They made Twisted Metal before RT.
TM 1 & 2 where made by Singletrac. Singletrac left Sony and since Sony had the rights to TM 989 studios made TM 3 and 4 which sucked so bad it nearly killed the series. Many of the guys from Singletrac returned to Sony as Incog and made TM Black, Small Brawl and Head-On.
Not sure about the new Warhawk but I assume it's being done by Incog.
Not sure about the new Warhawk but I assume it's being done by Incog.
SolidSnakex
Member
Shompola said:
From what I know Incog is basically alot of former SingleTrac staff. So yah its essentially the same team that made TM, TM2, and Rogue Trip who made TMBlack and who're now working on Warhawk.
Professor K
m0dus jr
Anyanka said:
C'mon, man. Paul Phoenix IS Jacky! Nina IS Sarah Bryant. The games play different, but do you think Namco suddenly said "Hey! We should make a 3D fighter!"? No, they just copied Sega.
A 3D fighter and a 3D gun game can be coincidence. But then a tank game after Sega? A Helicopter gun game after Sega's? That's not coincidence, that's ripping off. Hell, they even put out a 3D TENNIS game after Sega did it!
Back then, I would've been flamed off the board for pointing out something so obvious. Because when you said "Namco ripped-off Sega" fanboys interpreted it as "Playstation ripped-off Saturn".
In a similar way when gamers pointed out the absolute fact that Virtua Fighter was a superior game to Tekken, fanboys interpreted that as 'Saturn is better than Playstation". It's amazing how those same people who wouldn't admit to that if you put a gun to their head suddenly felt the VF series was spectacular when it appeared on a Sony console.
EDIT: Of course I mean Paul Phoenix, not Bryant.
Paul Phoenix has like nothing in common with Jacky besides weird looking blonde hair. Paul has more in common with Ken. At least they both have a red gi. Nina and Sarah? I guess...but the design isn't exactly original to begin with. Then there's everyone else. Tekken is filled with strange characters like robots, demons and animals that make it's presentation far different from VF.
Sega should get credit for defining the 3D fighting genre but Tekken is no more a copy than Toshiden, Bloody Roar, Soulcalibur, or any other 3D fighter. It's like saying Sega copied Capcom because Street Fighter II started the fighting game boom all together. Yeah, VF paved the way but Namco went in their own completely different direction. It's not a direct rip off like some of these games in the article.
What tank game did Namco copy? It must be cool since Tokyo Wars is great.
Um, ok. What does arguments about consoles from 10 years ago have to do with anything?
Sega should get credit for defining the 3D fighting genre but Tekken is no more a copy than Toshiden, Bloody Roar, Soulcalibur, or any other 3D fighter. It's like saying Sega copied Capcom because Street Fighter II started the fighting game boom all together. Yeah, VF paved the way but Namco went in their own completely different direction. It's not a direct rip off like some of these games in the article.
What tank game did Namco copy? It must be cool since Tokyo Wars is great.
Um, ok. What does arguments about consoles from 10 years ago have to do with anything?
Professor K
m0dus jr
Anyanka said:
I think you have a steak dinner in front of you and you're complaining about the peas. The whole gist of my argument is the Tekken didn't occur in a vaccum. Taken in and of itself, you could poissibly argue that Namco didn't copy Sega with Tekken (and you keep pointing out that characters are different when my original point of Namco even creating a 3D fighter was copying Sega). But Namco didn't ONLY make Tekken. They copied Sega game for game for a good 6 years. That removes the possibility that Namco "just happened" to make games in the exact same genre as Sega ONLY after Sega made a game first.
That's not coincidence, that's straight up copying. And saying "Time Crisis allowed you to hide!" doesn't remove the fact that Time Crisis is a Virtua Cop rip-off.
I mean, to me it's as obvious as the sun in ths sky. I really don't get why you're arguing this point. Namco made a living following Sega genre for genre in the 90s. Is the even debatable? Hell, didn't Namco even make a Crazy Taxi rip-off at one point?
Professor K
m0dus jr
Anyanka said:
That's it, Smashing Drive. That was towards the end of Namco's "monkey see, monkey do" period.
Actually, Sega followed Namco's lead with weapon's based fighter when Last Bronx followed Soul Blade. But hell, Sega can't be blamed for doing what Namco did to them for years.
Fishie flop oog
Banned
Anyanka said:
Oh come on, you are really stretching it now.
You cant count Remix and Kids.
Remix was released on Saturn first and was just VF1 with a new lick of Paint and Kids ran on the Sturn board too and was an effed up SD version of VF2.
Those werent real VF games, neither was Fighters Megamix, side projects that have no bearing on the series.
Oh BTW, Sega HAS ben working on VF5 and its core changes since 2k3, it was even confirmed to me and Heidi in an interview we did for Gamespy and which caused a shitstorm for us since that wasnt supposed to be public knoledge yet since at that point Sega had not even anounced VF4 Final Tuned yet.
You can read the interview here: http://archive.gamespy.com/interviews/january04/am2/index.shtml
Here is the offending text: GameSpy: If VF:CG does well, how will it affect the "old" VF? Will the "standard" VF series continue?
Mr. Osaki: The VF series as you know it will DEFINITELY continue, and VF5 IS coming. It will be what fans expect - a one-on-one fighting game. We do not intend for Cyber Generation to be a "replacement" for the original VF series. It is something that will coexist beside the original series and hopefully introduce more people to it.
Smashing Drive was made by Gaelco, not Namco. Namco published the later console versions though. That's less "monkey see, monkey do" than "Let's publish this horrible Crazy Taxi wannabe made by 4 dues in a basement."Professor K said:
Although, nothing like a game where one of the music tracks has "Loosen up your diapers, get your caps turning" in the lyrics.
Professor K
m0dus jr
border said:
This is a silly defense. Noone was saying there weren't lightgun games before VC. You can be an idiot and say that there were fighting games before Street Fighter II, so that exonerates Fighter's History.
But then, you'd be an idiot for trying to use that defense since it's obvious that Fighter's History was just a "me too" of SFII. Just as Time Crisis was a "me too" of Virtua Cop.
Or you can be an idiot and claim that the situation is the same for Time Crisis as it is for Fighter's History.Professor K said:
Fighter's History stole character designs, special moves and animations. THAT was the problem....not that they were both fighting games. The principal dynamic of Time Crisis is way different than that of Virtua Fighter. Maybe if TC had all the camera zooms and superimposed flashing targets of VC you might have a point. They're both "realistic" lightgun shooters in 3D, and that's about where the similarities end.
Professor K
m0dus jr
border said:
Sigh, again, if Time Crisis existed in a vaccuum, you'd look as sharp as you think you are. But TC was just a game in a long string of "me too" games from Namco copying Sega. I've made this point at least 5 times in this thread. This is the last.
Sigh, again, you seem to think that a ripoff is just a title in the same genre around the same time period. You don't want to actually consider how Time Crisis looked or played, because you'd be forced to admit that it's not much like Virtua Cop at all.Professor K said:
Sega made a gun game and then Namco made a gun game OMG!
Kobun Heat
Member
WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MY PRECIOUS, PRECIOUS THREAD
Red Blaster
Member
Yeah, and Virtua Cop fucking blows now as a series while Time Crisis is still pushing along.
border said:
He's not saying they're direct rip offs, and he's given several examples of games "inspired" by sega: Tekken, Time Crisis, Tennis, helicopter, racing, tank...
There's nothing wrong with looking at a new genre and doing a game that in many ways improves on the originals. That doesn't mean they didn't totally take advantage of Sega's ingenuity and piggy back on their success.
Professor K
m0dus jr
DrLazy said:
And we have a winner!
Namco simply took what Sega did and added a "twist". But anyone with half the brains God gave a tapeworm could clearly see that Namco was simply copying Sega. But I digress.
Kobun Heat
Member
Because one of them is far more contentious; nobody really cares that much about Balloon Fight/Joust and everybody knows who ripped off who. But talking about Ninja Gaiden, which is SUCH A CASTLEVANIA RIPOFF, always gets people up in arms.border said:
Point being that "lightgun shooter" was not a new genre, and it's one genre that arguably developed the least from 2D-to-3D. There was no "Sega ingenuity" to piggyback onto. Giving one company claim to the idea of a lightgun title is a bit ridiculous. Something like the VF-Tekken connection makes a bit more sense, as there was clearly something unique going on in VF.DrLazy said:
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
And why is it that your book, which it's titled "Power-Up: How Japanese Video Games Gave the World an Extra Life" focuses almost entirely on Nintendo, going so far as to analyze Donkey Kong's cinematics? Why do Silicon Knights, a relatively obscure company, get more coverage than Sega, Capcom, Namco, etc? Why, Mr.Kohler, why do sell your journalistic integrity so easily?Kobun Heat said:
Nice article, good book (not the best, but it's a solid addition to my personal library since it takes a look at the videogame industry in a fresh way).
Kobun Heat
Member
Actually, it's funny. Here are things that happened:OpinionatedCyborg said:
Me: Hi Sega, I'd like to talk to your developers for this book I'm writing.
Sega: "Would we really want to be part of a book called Super Mario Nation?" [actual quote]
Me: Hi Capcom, I'm writing a book on Japanese video games and am going to be living near your Osaka office for a year, and would love to talk to your developers.
Capcom: "We don't put our developers in front of just anybody." [actual quote]
Me: Hi Nintendo, I am writing a book on Japanese video games and would like to interview your developers.
Nintendo: WHY SURE
would be one explanation. You could note that Sony was pretty awesome too (the big, big sections on Ico and Parappa) but people would rather go OMG TEH BIAS and forget about that.
Yeah, but the people that made Balloon Fight are probably still at Nintendo. You could have gone and asked them what they were thinking 
"Talking about Ninja Gaiden always gets people up in arms" because the only connection seems to be the enegry bar design and striking lanterns to get powerups.....seems like not-a-lot-to-go-on if you are going to accuse a company of the same flagrant hackjobs that are profiled elsewhere in the article.
"Talking about Ninja Gaiden always gets people up in arms" because the only connection seems to be the enegry bar design and striking lanterns to get powerups.....seems like not-a-lot-to-go-on if you are going to accuse a company of the same flagrant hackjobs that are profiled elsewhere in the article.
Seriously?OpinionatedCyborg said:
Kobun Heat
Member
I'm not sure what really gets people so annoyed at the suggestion that Ninja Gaiden lifts wholesale from Castlevania. It's probably because Ninja Gaiden is by far the better game, which I took pains to point out in the piece. They made major improvements. And of course the setting and characters are totally different. By pointing out how much it copied, I'm not saying it's a bad game. But the virtually identical status display and gameplay mechanics are too good not to point out.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
haha, I'm just giving you a hard time. Maybe when you write your next book, you'll have enough power in the industry to demand interviews with other big Japanese developers. It is cool that Nintendo seems to cooperate with journalists/authors really easily -- almost every vg book I read has nothing but praise for Nintendo's cooperation.Kobun Heat said:
Fishie flop oog
Banned
OpinionatedCyborg said:
Actually NO, Nintendo is one of the hardest companies to get interviews at.
I have had a couple in Kyoto and they always go to great lengths to let you know that they dont just give interviews to everyone and how priviliged I should feel and bla bla bla.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
I'm going to get an interview with Nintendo tomorrow at 9AM just to prove you wrong. Then I'm going to call them at 10AM, say I have a hangover, and re-schedule for 11:30 PM. If I don't get the interview, I'll owe you a coke.Hajiki said:
Fishie flop oog
Banned
OpinionatedCyborg said:
Make it a stiff drink and we are on.
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
SIT BACK AND ENJOY THE RIDE CHRIS, I'M THE DESIGNATED DRIVER IN THIS THREAD.Kobun Heat said:
Kobun Heat
Member
Come on, everybody knows you're just my joke account.TekunoRobby said:
Suburban Cowboy
Member
most blatant example ive ever experienced first hand was the first crash bandicoot racing game. They actually took the EXACT layout of levels from Mario Kart 64 and just changed the textures/backgrounds. Talk about hacky.
Yes, this is the same series that introduced "2 racers per kart!" some 6months-year after Double Dash was released.
Yes, this is the same series that introduced "2 racers per kart!" some 6months-year after Double Dash was released.
SiegfriedFM
Member
As for copying characters and certain Tekken characters being vague ripoffs of Virtua Fighter, maybe we should consider that most VF characters were ripoffs of Street Fighter characters (at a glance) to begin with...