(Reuters) EU calls emergency meeting as crisis stalks Italy

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I hate how polish politicians want to get into Euro zone THAT HARD. It's in disastrous state yet they continue on doing it the hardest they can. Really.
They're even doing some meaningless reforms that don't change anything except on hiding a massive part of public debt to meet the Euro criteria. It's laughable, really. Why I ask, whyyyy.
 
CassSept said:
I hate how polish politicians want to get into Euro zone THAT HARD. It's in disastrous state yet they continue on doing it the hardest they can. Really.
They're even doing some meaningless reforms that don't change anything except on hiding a massive part of public debt to meet the Euro criteria. It's laughable, really. Why I ask, whyyyy.

Might it be because they can currently get a good deal converting zloty to euro?
 
CassSept said:
I hate how polish politicians want to get into Euro zone THAT HARD. It's in disastrous state yet they continue on doing it the hardest they can. Really.
They're even doing some meaningless reforms that don't change anything except on hiding a massive part of public debt to meet the Euro criteria. It's laughable, really. Why I ask, whyyyy.
Corruption.
 
nubbe said:
Sweden need to get the fuck out of EU and re-union with Norway
No thank you. Karen Park is the only thing that we needed Sweden for and we got her. Thank you, but stay where you are Sweden.
 
CassSept said:
I hate how polish politicians want to get into Euro zone THAT HARD. It's in disastrous state yet they continue on doing it the hardest they can. Really.
They're even doing some meaningless reforms that don't change anything except on hiding a massive part of public debt to meet the Euro criteria. It's laughable, really. Why I ask, whyyyy.

I don't know the statistics for Poland but if they are a very open economy and have a similar structure to Germany and France, which will reduce the risk of asymmetric shocks then there are many good reasons to want to join the Euro. Just because it wasn't correct for Greece doesn't mean it wouldn't be for Poland. It also depends partly on how much Poland generate through seignorage because Germany doesn't really use this method wheras Greece, Italy Portugal, Ireland and Spain all relied on it heavily pre Euro.
 
RoadHazard said:
Scandinavia is doing pretty well. At least Sweden is, and of course also Norway (dat oil). Not as sure about Denmark, but I believe they also have their shit pretty much under control.
Denmark is doing pretty well. Scandinavia is the superior Europe confirmed.
 
PdotMichael said:
New EU 2.0 with Benelux, France, Germany and Scandinavia confirmed?

I hope so. ;)
 
PdotMichael said:
New EU 2.0 with Benelux, France, Germany and Scandinavia confirmed?

What is the point in forming a union in the first place if people are just going to bail out at the first sign of trouble and the rich states refuse to be associated with the poor ones?
 
catfish said:
:O really? Never been/didn't know this, I thought Scandinavia in general pulled the avoid on the euro.
Not only that but Denmark has actually tied their curency to the Euro so it's not entirely independent. It's really only Sweden that has gone against the Euro completely.
 
PdotMichael said:
New EU 2.0 with Benelux, France, Germany and Scandinavia confirmed?
If PIGS get fucked so does France. They're highly exposed to downfall in PIGS economies. And Germany, the only country which could lead such a union is draining the last of it's political capitals reserves and pulling it into EU. They won't have a strenght for a new political project
 
PdotMichael said:
New EU 2.0 with Benelux, France, Germany and Scandinavia confirmed?
It seems that the more popular solution among economists and politicians is an actual 'United States of Europe' but as for now the national governments aren't willing to take the final steps and the public is obviously against it. The credit rating for the entire EU would be AAA without a doubt and combining the strengths of the different economies would create a new global superpower.

I'm not sure if I'd support this myself but the current system obviously doesn't work.
 
[Nintex] said:
It seems that the more popular solution among economists and politicians is an actual 'United States of Europe' but as for now the national governments aren't willing to take the final steps and the public is obviously against it. The credit rating for the entire EU would be AAA without a doubt and combining the strengths of the different economies would create a new global superpower.

I'm not sure if I'd support this myself but the current system obviously doesn't work.
Well, a crisis usually results deeper co-operation than ever before or breaks it completely.

We'll see how it goes with EU.
 
[Nintex] said:
It seems that the more popular solution among economists and politicians is an actual 'United States of Europe'

As much as this may or may not be a good idea, I wouldn't say that it's the "popular" solution in the EU at the moment.
 
Zaptruder said:
Interesting times ahead. What are the implications of a European Federation?

I figure that the US is a pretty good example of what a European federation could look like. Not sure i want. Maybe in the future, but europe is too polarised still, even if we've come a long way in establishing a EU identiy the last 20 years.
I shudder when i think of potentially having someone like Berlusconi or Sarkozy in office presiding over the entire EU.

But to be honest i'm not completely sure these huge national states like the US or China is a good idea at all in the long run.
 
How can united Europe exist if EU is scapping to prevent falling apart?
1) Current goverments won't giveup on their existing powers.
2) WW2 wounds have not healed. I dare you to create an entity in which German economists will tell the Poland goverment how to run their economy.
3) Rich countries would AGAIN need to bailout the poor countries. They're having hard time bailing out Greece. Default risk from Spain and Italy is huge and one is going to pay trillions to help them survive the crisis.
4) Existing factions would clash and destroy fully united Europe from the inside.
5) There's no country which is powerful enough and that everyone fully accepts that can lead such a creation.
6) There's a huge gap in wealth between countries.
 
All you seem to be saying is that there are obstacles to federation, but nobody ever disputed that. Obstacles can be overcome, so if you're rejecting the notion that Federal Europe is possible you'll have to try to explain why the obstacles in Europe are insurmountable, as opposed to simply difficult.

Things such as:

1) Current goverments won't giveup on their existing powers.

4) Existing factions would clash and destroy fully united Europe from the inside.

... are more like conclusions than they are like premises, which is a problem if you're trying to use them as focal points of your argument.

The points you raise about rich countries needing to bail out poor countries seem rather weak, since that's what they're doing now and they aren't even federated yet. Current economic problems are not permanent, either, so even if this meant Europe couldn't federate right now that has nothing to do with whether it could in more prosperous times. Indeed, most people don't expect a Federal Europe for several decades to come.

Further, every country has rich and poor provinces, and funnels money from the places that have it to the places that need it. That doesn't seem like any sort of problem, but you seem to be implying in your post that the existence of wealthy vs poor states is somehow something that is unique to Europe and also bad.
 
CassSept said:
I hate how polish politicians want to get into Euro zone THAT HARD. It's in disastrous state yet they continue on doing it the hardest they can. Really.
They're even doing some meaningless reforms that don't change anything except on hiding a massive part of public debt to meet the Euro criteria. It's laughable, really. Why I ask, whyyyy.

Everyone wants to get into the Euro Zone because it opens up trade, and apparently nets poor countries free money from the rich countries in the form of bail outs.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
All you seem to be saying is that there are obstacles to federation, but nobody ever disputed that. Obstacles can be overcome, so if you're rejecting the notion that Federal Europe is possible you'll have to try to explain why the obstacles in Europe are insurmountable, as opposed to simply difficult.

Yeah it's "only" difficult, but very difficult. The failed attempt for a European constitution (that wouldn't even have changed the statu quo) showed that there's still a long way to a federation.

Lagspike_exe said:
2) WW2 wounds have not healed. I dare you to create an entity in which German economists will tell the Poland goverment how to run their economy.

I don't know about Poland, but I don't think history matters so much now among European countries... take France and Germany, they've been the worst enemies for centuries, going at war against each other every 30 or 50 years, and now they're best friends "just because".
It's almost the same thing with France Vs UK (though we still loathe the English :D ), except that we've been allies during the last wars.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
All you seem to be saying is that there are obstacles to federation, but nobody ever disputed that. Obstacles can be overcome, so if you're rejecting the notion that Federal Europe is possible you'll have to try to explain why the obstacles in Europe are insurmountable, as opposed to simply difficult.

Things such as:



... are more like conclusions than they are like premises, which is a problem if you're trying to use them as focal points of your argument.

The points you raise about rich countries needing to bail out poor countries seem rather weak, since that's what they're doing now and they aren't even federated yet. Current economic problems are not permanent, either, so even if this meant Europe couldn't federate right now that has nothing to do with whether it could in more prosperous times. Indeed, most people don't expect a Federal Europe for several decades to come.

Further, every country has rich and poor provinces, and funnels money from the places that have it to the places that need it. That doesn't seem like any sort of problem, but you seem to be implying in your post that the existence of wealthy vs poor states is somehow something that is unique to Europe and also bad.
Paralel to this, it is completely possible that humans will travel to distant galaxies, there are just some "obstacles" that we need to resolve before we make it. It just happens that those obstacles are extremely time consuming and very costly. Rings a bell?
 
PdotMichael said:
New EU 2.0 with Benelux, France, Germany and Scandinavia confirmed?

Germany, Scandinavia and Netherlands, if any of them want to join. I very much doubt the UK population would vote to join a new EU should this one fall apart, it seems unlikely that Sweden, Finland or the Netherlands would either.

Looking ahead, post EU and Euro, the free trade area will survive because it is brilliant, and helps European economies compete effectively on the world stage. I doubt very much that the social and political side will make it through though and the development side will be massively scaled back (into almost non-existence) and the CAP will turn into government maintained agriculture subsidies for those countries that want them.

I hear the question asked more and more often among many northern EU people, what the fuck do we get out of the EU, and so far the tangible benefits of our huge membership costs across the UK and Scandinavia seem to be diminishing and the costs of bail outs are ever greater. If the EU elite don't give into the will of the people expect more riots, more political extremism (see True Finns) and less support for their barmy ideas (like forcing national sports teams to bear the EU flag for no reason).
 
Lagspike_exe said:
Paralel to this, it is completely possible that humans will travel to distant galaxies, there are just some "obstacles" that we need to resolve before we make it. It just happens that those obstacles are extremely time consuming and very costly. Rings a bell?

Intergalactic travel via relativistic transport is in the "post singularity, but sure, why not" category. It's not exactly a good comparison to a European Federation, whose obstacles are not scientific or technological but purely political. This isn't exactly like saying "maybe China and America could federate", either, because the groundwork is already here. There is already a common currency, free trade agreements and open borders for citizens between most of the EU. They are extremely close, geographically and politically. They all have pretty good relations with each other. A number of EU citizens would be happy with federation.

The obstacles are only slightly higher than they were for other historical federations, I think the biggest one is the lack of a common language. Still, it's not really difficult to imagine the EU coordinating on regional defense policy (they already do in a very small and limited way), one of the final pieces of the puzzle in this case.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-debt-crisis/2011/07/14/gIQAvUSzEI_print.html

Italy slashing budget to fend off debt crisis
By Howard Schneider, Thursday, July 14, 8:54 PM
rome — Battered by rising borrowing costs and under the eye of other European governments, Italy’s Senate on Thursday upped the size of planned budget cuts in an effort to prevent the euro zone’s third-largest economy from slipping into the debt crisis that has already claimed three smaller nations.

As the Senate approved a $68 billion package of tax hikes and spending reductions, Finance Minister Giulio Tremonti warned that the problems facing the euro currency zone had become like “the Titanic, not even first class passengers will be saved.”

His comments underscored the anxiety felt throughout Europe and in Washington about the speed with which even a large and seemingly stable economy could be brought under the same type of pressure that has forced Greece, Ireland and Portugal to seek emergency help from their neighbors and the International Monetary Fund.

Thursday’s vote, which ratcheted up the amount of belt-tightening planned by the government, was meant as a forceful reassurance that Italy is serious about balancing its books in the next few years and beginning to reduce an outstanding pile of debt that is around 120 percent of annual economic output. The lower house of parliament is expected to approve the measures on Friday.

More than a year and a half after Greece’s still-unresolved crisis began, the issue of mounting government debt has become a political problem as much as a financial one — triggering dozens of urgent summits and profound changes in how Europe operates, but so far no conclusive response.

The fear is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy: The lack of a convincing political response begets even deeper skepticism among investors and markets, causing the problems to worsen and spread to more countries. That, in turn, complicates the political debate over who pays for which country’s problems.

“You need to act quickly to restore confidence,” said Valdis Dombrovskis, prime minister of Latvia, a country credited with sticking to a tough round of wage and budget cuts during the 2008 crisis that helped restore it to strong economic growth. “To postpone the adjustment doesn’t lead anywhere,” he said.

The only thing that changed in Italy during the past week was the perception that Tremonti, known as a fiscal disciplinarian, was losing influence within the government. But that was enough to make bond investors question whether Italy had the political will to follow through with a multi-year plan to curb its prodigious borrowing. Bank stocks plummeted and interest rates spiked, with the country forced on Thursday to pay a record high of near 6 percent on its latest bond issues.

A continued rise in borrowing costs could push Italy down the same path as Greece, Ireland and Portugal — but at a far greater cost to those involved in any bailout, and at far greater risk to the regional and world economy.

“This was a very powerful demonstration of the sensitivity of the market, and I don’t think we will be rid of this kind of thing,” said Carlo Bastasin, an Italian economist and Brookings Institution analyst. “You have great uncertainty among the Europeans about the endgame for Greece, and all of a sudden Tremonti's position seemed wobbly.”

It was the type of small tremor that threatened to become a bigger one — to the degree that German Chancellor Angela Merkel, whose country has become a pillar of Europe’s economy and a primary funder of the different bailout programs, called Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi over the weekend and urged fast action lest financial “contagion” consumes Italy.
 
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