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[reckless]

SLBMs were actually just introduced around the time the Cuban missile crisis happened.

I don't think Russia is so much concerned that they would stop being threatening altogether but their rhetoric is that any attempt to diminish the impact of their nuclear deterrent is an act of aggression in itself. In effect they view this as a second arms race while there is mounting political tensions between the US and them and the US and rising powers in the east.

Well yeah, they were around back then but there weren't really enough to act as a strong enough deterrent.

I think its just more for the use of internal propaganda. Putin and co want to cement themselves as leaders and having a common enemy can distract /be blamed by the people from all of Russia's economic and social problems.

 

[Nivash]

like other poster evaluated, russia sees the belt as an agression initself. same for the ukraine joining nato. think russia wouldve kept its base/crimea if the ukraine is a "puppet" of the nato?

btw, not tryin to excuse russia here. but to understand theyr reaction you have to look at whats happening and what has happened in the past.

True, but understanding can't lead to acceptance. Right now the only option I see for Europe is rearmament. The EU has the largest economy in the world - slightly larger than the United States and almost 9 times that of Russia. If we collectively spent as little as half of what the US spends on its military - and actually in line with the NATO 2 % of GDP target - we could outspend Russia almost four times to one, making it impossible for them to try anything.

Of course, that would require true European unity. Something we're sorely lacking.

 

[Syriel]

Yep and its working flawlessly. Imagine if Russia put missile defense in Cuba or Mexico. We'd probably go to war.

If Russia spent the money for missile defense radar stations or interceptors in Cuba or Mexico, the US would probably laugh at them for wasting money. It wouldn't hinder US capability (just as the NATO shield doesn't hinder Russia's capability) and there are no nuclear armed rogue states in the hemisphere.

At the time the US had nuclear weapons equally close if not closer to the USSR's border.

Also in a nuclear race, losing first strike capability which the shield is meant to achieve exposes Russia to a potentially devastating nuclear strike. NATO already has first strike capability in Russia.

And the NATO shield does nothing to diminish Russia's capability. Iran's capability? For sure. A rogue state? Yes. Russia? Fuck no.

like other poster evaluated, russia sees the belt as an agression initself. same for the ukraine joining nato. think russia wouldve kept its base/crimea if the ukraine is a "puppet" of the nato?

btw, not tryin to excuse russia here. but to understand theyr reaction you have to look at whats happening and what has happened in the past.

The only way to make that determination is to say that Ukraine is not allowed to make its own choices.

As for the base, the US has a base on leased land in Cuba. Why wouldn't Russia have kept its leased base in Crimea, even if Ukraine was closer with the EU? It's not like Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO (or for that matter, NATO even being interested in letting Ukraine join).

 

[Hydrargyrus]

WTF is wrong with Russia??

Do they try to piss to everyone in order to put them against Russia?

 

[Kabouter]

Because there's no rule book. Sure, we may not like what country X does, but it's not as if they're defying some natural law. Russia can do what they want to do, we can do what we want to do, and the same goes for every country in the world.

No, they're not defying natural law. They are however violating every decent moral principle, and people are far too easy to concede to the great power politics Russia loves to play. What Russia is doing is utterly indefensible. The only motivation for it is the delusional fantasy in the minds of Russophiles that NATO is aggressively posturing towards Russia. How about standing up for our principles once in a while? How about we don't allow a great power to just use its military to invade and annex (portions of) other nations? How about we don't defend irredentism and revanchism?

Indeed. Furthermore, looking at history the US has done the exact same thing. The cold war wasn't too long ago.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Just because another nation did something at one point in history doesn't mean that one country gets dominion over another sovereign state just because. Really tired of whataboutism.

 

[Nivash]

Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Just because another nation did something at one point in history doesn't mean that one country gets dominion over another sovereign state just because. Really tired of whataboutism.

I would also point out how deeply insulting this is to the countries in the potential firing line, who haven't done shit like that. It's essentially saying that it's fine for Russia to invade Ukraine because of Cuba or the Baltics because of Iraq. What the hell did the Ukrainians and the Balts have to do with that?

It's especially infuriating to see supposed liberals play this card because they should know better. They're tacitly embracing Russia's fascist worldview where smaller nations are puppets with no real agency that are no more than playthings for larger nations in the supposed Great Game.

 

[Engell]

not much to say here other than fuck Russia s Government

 

[Business]

Their threats show their weakness. Russia will implode.

 

[Zukuu]

Can Putin's corrupt political circus just die already?

 

[Theonik]

Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Just because another nation did something at one point in history doesn't mean that one country gets dominion over another sovereign state just because. Really tired of whataboutism.

This isn't really about whether Russia is justified or not, there appears to be the opinion that the western nations would not do any of those things if they were in the same situation. There is absolutely zero evidence to that line of though, in fact there is real evidence pointing to the contrary. This doesn't mean that Russian actions should not be condemned but you aren't exactly holding the moral high ground here.

 

[Drencrom]

not much to say here other than fuck Russia s Government

.

 

[Savitar]

Russia is acting like NK's bigger bitchier brother lately.

Put more sanctions on them and show them they can't bully their way.

 

[Kabouter]

This isn't really about whether Russia is justified or not, there appears to be the opinion that the western nations would not do any of those things if they were in the same situation. There is absolutely zero evidence to that line of though, in fact there is real evidence pointing to the contrary. This doesn't mean that Russian actions should not be condemned but you aren't exactly holding the moral high ground here.

There's quite a lot of evidence for Western nations not invading and annexing weaker neighbours in recent times, actually. Also threatening nuclear war is not particularly common. I get the sense a lot of people are so caught up in their anti-Western sentiments (even if they're Western themselves) that they have stopped seeing things in perspective, and are now equating the behaviours of liberal democracies with those of a kleptocratic irredentist regime.

 

[potam]

No, they're not defying natural law. They are however violating every decent moral principle, and people are far too easy to concede to the great power politics Russia loves to play. What Russia is doing is utterly indefensible. The only motivation for it is the delusional fantasy in the minds of Russophiles that NATO is aggressively posturing towards Russia. How about standing up for our principles once in a while? How about we don't allow a great power to just use its military to invade and annex (portions of) other nations? How about we don't defend irredentism and revanchism.

You asked what right they had to do these things. They don't, but at the same time, they're not doing anything wrong in an objective sense. We might not like it, but then it is our duty to push back. I just don't understand the moral outrage...well ok, I can understand the outrage. I just don't understand why it seems so confusing for you, as if a soccer player just picked up the ball and threw it into the goal. There's really nothing extraordinary going on.

 

[pestul]

Their threats show their weakness. Russia will implode.

That part actually worries me the most. That is one huge arsenal of nukes to manage if they do eventually collapse under their own weight.

 

[markot]

The thing is... Of course any base that houses these weapons will be targets for Russia in any MAD scenario >.>

I mean, you have to knock out the shield to make sure your swords get through otherwise MAD doesnt have its bite.

 

[Kabouter]

You asked what right they had to do these things. They don't, but at the same time, they're not doing anything wrong in an objective sense. We might not like it, but then it is our duty to push back. I just don't understand the moral outrage...well ok, I can understand the outrage. I just don't understand why it seems so confusing for you, as if a soccer player just picked up the ball and threw it into the goal. There's really nothing extraordinary going on.

It's not confusing to me why Russia does what it does, it's confusing to me why people seek to justify and defend it, particularly when those people self-identify as liberals. And I would argue the first annexation of the territory of one European state by another since the end of WW2 is rather an extraordinary event.

 

[Jenenser]

It's not confusing to me why Russia does what it does, it's confusing to me why people seek to justify and defend it, particularly when those people self-identify as liberals. And I would argue the first annexation of the territory of one European state by another since the end of WW2 is rather an extraordinary event.

its not about justifying (atleast for me) its more about the fact that most people don't ask/think about the why and just satisfy themselfs with "they are evil/stiupid/corrupt/mad". right now russia is comparebly weak (if you ignore the wmd's), and they know it but don't wanna admit it. they still have oil, but that won't help forever. theyr economy is broken just as much as theyr currency.
the whole situation is more complicated than just russia is mad. thats all i am saying.
its like poking a cornered animal with a stick.

that doesn't mean russia has any right to annex parts of the ukraine and play warmonger.
but we shouldn't be suprised that they do.

 

[Amir0x]

keep waggin' that dick around Russia.

If your only solution to your foreign policy is "well we got nukes and shit and can go to war", you've failed. Try again Russia.

that doesn't mean russia has any right to annex parts of the ukraine and play warmonger.
but we shouldn't be suprised that they do.

Why shouldn't we be surprised when they do something that was the most alarming act of aggression by any of the major Cold War nations side the end of the Cold War? It's not like it was impossible to predict, but it was surprising. And it continues to be surprising that they continue to put themselves at odds with essentially all the Western powers for next to no benefit to themselves anymore. Putin's popularity amongst his own people is the only upside I can see, because anti-Western sentiment remains strong there. But they also hate gay folk, and we saw the result of that. It's wrong. At this point the question becomes: what IS their foreign policy goals right now? And why shouldn't more aggressive actions by Russia not surprise people?

You said it's like 'poking an animal with a stick', but nobody was poking Russia. The people in Ukraine ousted their fucked up corrupt pro-Russian government, and they didn't like the outcome. In a sane world, that's not 'poking Russia.' That's an independent country making an independent choice about who they will allow rule themselves. Think about that logic being drawn out every time some government, say, elects a group of people who hate the USA or whatever. The world would be far more chaotic than it is now.

 

[IndoAssassin]

How do you nuke a moving target? Russia must have some insane spying tech.

 

[SURGEdude]

How do you nuke a moving target? Russia must have some insane spying tech.

I think the benefit of a nuke is you don't need to be too accurate.

 

[speculawyer]

Wow, I didn't realize Denmark was not part of NATO.

But whatever. Again, FUCK PUTIN.

This new cold war is really sad. The west largely doesn't give a shit. It is just the poor (literally) Russian people that are suffering. I wish they didn't have to suffer like this.

 

[Log4Girlz]

How do you nuke a moving target? Russia must have some insane spying tech.

Nukes don't have to be incredibly precise.

 

[MicH]

How do you nuke a moving target? Russia must have some insane spying tech.

Russian submarines have been spotted in Scandinavian waters from time to time so it's not like they're not watching

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Sure, we may not like what country X does, but it's not as if they're defying some natural law.

I guess. But how about logic? Rationality? Reason? Those are fairly natural and Russia has been defying them all now for a long, long time.

There is a reason not to like what they're doing.

 

[McNum]

Wow, I didn't realize Denmark was not part of NATO.

But whatever. Again, FUCK PUTIN.

This new cold war is really sad. The west largely doesn't give a shit. It is just the poor (literally) Russian people that are suffering. I wish they didn't have to suffer like this.

Um, Denmark is most certainly part of NATO. Been that for a long time, too. Which makes this statement by Russia even more stupid. We might not be big, but we have big friends.

 

[speculawyer]

Um, Denmark is most certainly part of NATO. Been that for a long time, too. Which makes this statement by Russia even more stupid. We might not be big, but we have big friends.

Thanks for mentioning that. I thought I was losing my mind. And Denmark is a valued member of NATO.

Russia be crazy.

 

[McNum]

Thanks for mentioning that. I thought I was losing my mind. And Denmark is a valued member of NATO.

Russia be crazy.

Yeah. I stand by what I said earlier in this thread:

Silly old bear.

With apologies to Winnie the Pooh.

 

[Kallor]

Russia is acting like NK's bigger bitchier brother lately.

Put more sanctions on them and show them they can't bully their way.

Bigger bitchier drunk and nearly as dumb brother, who somehow has a hot wife despite beating her constantly and getting arrested for it, gets out the next day because his pal is a sheriff.

 

[Yagharek]

I wonder if Putin will see a Cesar like downfall.

Hopefully more like stalin

 

[samar11]

In a nuclear war, its game over for both sides. No one comes out of this as a winner and the world would go in to dark ages. Bad for both sides!

 

[mdubs]

This is like straight out of House of Cards

 

[knitoe]

The only plausible explanation why Russia doesn't want missile defense shield is they are afraid it's a baby steps to developing technology to stop all missiles. Today, I am pretty sure Russia knows full well the ability to shoot a few missiles down does nothing to their arsenal of 2000+ nukes, but they are afraid that one day the US may develops a defense system, maybe with lasers, that can't shoot down all missiles. If you can take the threat of nukes off the table, it total changes the outlook of the battle. US and NATO would be handling Crimea much more differently.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

The worst thing for Russia (and the world) is if Putin actually has some kind of mental issue a la Reagan. However, unlike Reagan, towards the end he does something absolutely insane.

My hope is China looks at them and tries to convince them off of their soap box. Why China? Because i don't think they would want an ally to go to war for no reason and affect their own economy.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

At this point, I would swear that Putin is getting paid by Western military contractors.

 

[EricTheCleric]

At this point, I would swear that Putin is getting paid by Western military contractors.

Russia has their own military industrial complex. They are experiencing a boom right now...

 

[Cheeseman Battitude]

That's going to backfire eventually.

Just what I was thinking. It will have a formidable army to take over the world, then rebuild its economy with the spoils of war.