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whytemyke · Mar 17, 2005

ESPN is showing a special right now, a roundtable discussion on whether college athletes should get paid for what they do. It's pretty interesting, especially listening to John Thompson (former coach of Georgetown) talk about it. The man is incredibly intelligent, and he hit the nail on the head in that the situation really is one set up by college sports.

Figured this may be a good debate for GAF. Should college athletes get paid?

If so, how do you do it? Do you do it based on popularity of the sport, or do you regulate an equal amount for every sport? Do you cut a portion of the profits, or do you take the balance of all sports profits for the university and divide it among all university athletes? Or do you have a flat rate throughout the NCAA, so that you don't have a situation in the NCAA where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

WedgeX · Mar 17, 2005

Tuition rates climb...and people wish to pay college athletes?

How much coverage does the average college athlete get compensated for in terms of tuition already? After that I would make some judgement...

Archaix · Mar 17, 2005

WedgeX said:
Tuition rates climb...and people wish to pay college athletes?

How much coverage does the average college athlete get compensated for in terms of tuition already? After that I would make some judgement...

Many get full scholarships, but after that, they are not allowed to work.

They can't hold even a part time job.

There is no argument against paying college athletes. None. A rational argument simply doesn't exist, and for proof, listen to Myles Brand ramble on incoherently for a few moments about how college athletes shouldn't be paid.

Kung Fu Jedi · Mar 17, 2005

I'm against it as well. I'd have loved to have had my college tution paid for. Not only would I have come out with a degree but I wouldn't have been $15k in the hole!

Kobun Heat · Mar 17, 2005

No. Next question.

ShadowRed · Mar 17, 2005

Yeah everyone else gets paid so why shouldn't the college kids? What I would like to see is college sports separated from college all together. Make it like any AAA sports league and pay the kids, either out right with money, or with scholarship money if that kid really wants an education. That way you would have this sham of a system were the kids don't show up for classes the school passes them any way, and everyone pretends that nothing is going on. You also wouldn't have to suffer through an interview with a "Stanford grad" in which the guy can't form a quarter of a cogent sentence, yet every talk about how he went to college.

Ramirez · Mar 17, 2005

Well if they're not allowed to work,then I think they should be paid a little bit,first time I ever had that one though.

Archaix · Mar 17, 2005

Ramirez said:
Well if they're not allowed to work,then I think they should be paid a little bit,first time I ever had that one though.

They're not allowed to work during the season(of this much I'm certain), or during any period for which the NCAA permits practices(this, I'm not clear on). There are limits placed on what types of jobs they can work, how much they can be paid, and how many hours they can work when out of season though.

Kobun Heat · Mar 17, 2005

They don't and shouldn't be paid because it's not a job. It's an extracurricular activity that they do while they're at school. If they get paid then you have to pay all the kids who work on college newspapers, in the a capella groups, and all the way down the line.

Archaix · Mar 17, 2005

Kobun Heat said:
They don't and shouldn't be paid because it's not a job. It's an extracurricular activity that they do while they're at school. If they get paid then you have to pay all the kids who work on college newspapers, in the a capella groups, and all the way down the line.

The a capella group national championships don't get 6 billion dollar TV contracts.

Incognito · Mar 17, 2005

Yes, they should be given an allowance of some sort. How much money have these kids put in the pockets of the NCAA?

Enough said.

olimario · Mar 17, 2005

Richest colleges would get the best athletes making the whole system lopsided. I still thing scholorships and entrance should be based purely on grades and testing scores.

Kobun Heat · Mar 17, 2005

Archaix said:
The a capella group national championships don't get 6 billion dollar TV contracts.

They raise the quality and attractiveness of the school to prospective students, resulting in more tuition dollars.

Archaix · Mar 17, 2005

olimario said:
Richest colleges would get the best athletes making the whole system lopsided. I still thing scholorships and entrance should be based purely on grades and testing scores.

I don't think that most people would argue that it should be a free market for college athletes. The system which I have heard that makes most sense would be that the level of pay would be set by the conferences(the bigger schools would have an advantage, but they already do under current systems), and all athletes in that particular sport in that conference would be paid the same amount. It wouldn't pay star athletes more than anybody else, but it would still reward them enough to make ends meet and to have a comfortable amount to live with.

edit:

Kobun Heat said:
They raise the quality and attractiveness of the school to prospective students, resulting in more tuition dollars.

Sure they do. Entirely unlike sports. For example, nobody came to Penn State because they grew up a fan of the football team. And those hundred thousand people packing each and every football game would surely go to another event held at the school, just to support the various organizations.

My point is that, while many groups and organizations around a campus can increase the chances that somebody who is interested in those groups will attend, they don't bring in anywhere near as much money as major sports programs do. A good school newspaper can attract those interested in journalism or those who worked on their high school newspaper, but nobody is buying the school newspaper, and people all around the nation aren't taking three hours out of their Saturday (or the entire month of March) to read school newspapers from various universities.

You aren't making any sort of argument as for why athletes shouldn't be paid, instead making a rather curious conclusion about the necessity to pay all students. It doesn't follow logically.

kablooey · Mar 17, 2005

Fact of the matter is, major college sports are a business. Like someone else said, it's more or less a minor league for budding NBA and NFL stars. At most of the top programs, players are taken advantage of in order to line the pockets of University executives, under the pretense of "receiving their educations". That's a load of bullshit. College players, at least in football and basketball, should be paid; whether that means they get a split of the profits, or a flat rate as someone suggested, I don't know, but something needs to happen.

olimario · Mar 17, 2005

There are bound to be some schools who don't want to spend the money to pay athletes. Schools who would rather focus funds on education. If athletes got payed it would pretty much assure that the fictional school mentioned would be unable to compete on a game to game basis.

Save the paying for the pros.

whytemyke · Mar 17, 2005

Archaix said:
My point is that, while many groups and organizations around a campus can increase the chances that somebody who is interested in those groups will attend, they don't bring in anywhere near as much money as major sports programs do. A good school newspaper can attract those interested in journalism or those who worked on their high school newspaper, but nobody is buying the school newspaper, and people all around the nation aren't taking three hours out of their Saturday (or the entire month of March) to read school newspapers from various universities.

You can't possibly compare the drawing power of University Of Michigan football program, which gets 111,000 people in the seats every weekend and is televised at least regionally, to the drawing power of its student newspaper.

Plus, what do you all say to the money that college sports are making? CBS paid 300 million dollars this year just for the rights to broadcast college basketball. Do you think that the people who draw people to watch that should get a cut?

I'm just playing devils advocate here

Kobun Heat · Mar 17, 2005

Archaix said:
...reward them enough to make ends meet and to have a comfortable amount to live with.

Which of course they already have because their college tuition, which is paid up, includes room and board. I'm not sure of the specifics of how they're getting their spending money, but I'm really not seeing how star college athletes are going hungry, staring with their face pressed up against shop windows, either. Maybe they do what everybody else does and get jobs during the summer.

You're trying to define this argument and make us tell you why athletes shouldn't be paid, where in actuality it's your job to give some reason or another why they should -- then explain how that rationale doesn't apply to every other kid in college who participates in extracurriculars. You're going to college for free, that's some serious cash already. Why more?

SyNapSe · Mar 17, 2005

With numbers like 6 billion dollars being paid for the NCAA tournament rights the question needs answered. Who deserves the money, and who is currently getting it.

I think it's a tough issue, but personally I'm against it. It's no longer an amateur sport if you begin paying the people (even if you call it allowances).

I saw Digger Phelps arguing that it would end all the cheating and schools paying players to attend if all athletes were given $1,000 a semester allowance. Jay Bilas ?(I think) did not agree. Nor do I, that's just being blind.. guys like Chris Webber and Marcus Camby were pulling in 100,000 of bucks from what we have learned.

Earlier I read the depressing ESPN article with graduation rates for the teams in the NCAA tournament. Most of these kids are just being used, and aren't bothering to finish their education.

Archaix · Mar 17, 2005

whytemyke said:
You can't possibly compare the drawing power of University Of Michigan football program, which gets 111,000 people in the seats every weekend and is televised at least regionally, to the drawing power of its student newspaper.

Plus, what do you all say to the money that college sports are making? CBS paid 300 million dollars this year just for the rights to broadcast college basketball. Do you think that the people who draw people to watch that should get a cut?

I'm just playing devils advocate here

I...wasn't comparing the drawing power of the school newspaper to a football program. I was trying to show how ridiculous a comparison that is.

Kobun Heat-I've been doing nothing but saying why it is different than any other extracurricular activity. They should be paid because they bring in a whole hell of a lot of money. That's it. That's the reason. They make money for the schools, and don't see a comprable return.

Dilbert · Mar 17, 2005

Rick Telander wrote a good book about this some years ago -- the title escapes me, but if you can find a copy, it's a good read.

Personally, I think that athletes in the "big money" sports (which means men's college basketball and football) should be paid a small stipend (with a maximum value set by the NCAA) in addition to free room and board, and earn a year of free tuition for each year they play for the team. If they want to take classes concurrently, fine...if they want to go back to school when they are done playing, that's fine too. If they aren't college material in the first place, then at least they've had a decent job for a couple of years while honing their craft for the pros.

I took classes with athletes in other sports, and they truly are "student-athletes" who found a way to integrate training into their life. However, the "big money" sports are quite different, and the amount of BS which goes on behind the scenes to keep people eligible is disgusting. It seems like half of the violations result from money and the other half result from acedemic ineligibility -- so why not fix the problem by recognizing that, for better or worse, major college sports are farm teams for the pros?

cubanb · Mar 17, 2005

Sure we should pay them. The ones in the big programs. We should have a cap on how much they make, just enough to be able to live comfortably.

I am not sure that tution and boarding is enough. With many sports, their team IS A JOB. They spend so many hours there a week, its amazing if they get any studying done. I wonder how many of these athletes learn anything. with recent reports of many schools getting scholarships taken away its obvious they are not learning much in class. Why not admit that the reason that they are there is to play a sport?

cubanb · Mar 17, 2005

-jinx- said:
However, the "big money" sports are quite different, and the amount of BS which goes on behind the scenes to keep people eligible is disgusting. It seems like half of the violations result from money and the other half result from acedemic ineligibility -- so why not fix the problem by recognizing that, for better or worse, major college sports are farm teams for the pros?

exactly! i am talking about big money sports too. lets not dress it up and say tuition is a benefit for these kids. Yea its benefit is it keeps them eligible to play.

Bat · Mar 17, 2005

No, I don't think so. It's not like people watch college sports to see the great athletes, they watch it because of hte name on the uniform and the idea of a bunch of good ole' amateurs playing their asses off. Also, very few of the college players are worth a higher salary than the $40k a year they are getting in their scholarships. Just because TV companies give up big money to the thousands and thousands of schools in the NCAA doesn't mean some 5'9" skinny white guy from a random school deserves a significant chunk of that. Anyways, if the demand for these players was so high as to warrant a salary well above $40k, they would just go pro anyways. There's a reason why they don't...

EDIT- I wouldn't be opposed to a stipend, but nothing major ($1000 a semester? I dunno).

Kobun Heat · Mar 17, 2005

Archaix said:
They make money for the schools, and don't see a comprable return.

I think if you add up the free tuition they're getting then they do indeed see heavy returns. If they want to make money they can quit and play professionally.

BlackMage · Mar 17, 2005

might as well start paying wages to students who are actually contributing to society too.

WrathOfOtaibah · Mar 17, 2005

I know a few college athletes. Trust me, they don't have to worry about money. They get a lot of loans that give them excess cash. So no. They are getting paid in many ways, just not outright.

Kobun Heat · Mar 17, 2005

You know, by posting here and being somewhat amusing we are causing people to read the site thus generating advertising dollars for Gaming-Age.

I think we should be paid.

Cubsfan23 · Mar 17, 2005

For those saying that they already get free tuition........what about if they would have had an academic scholarship or a Pell grant, anyway?

Brendonia · Mar 17, 2005

I really don't think they should be paid, and that's just my opinion. Look, I understand that the time and effort they put into their sport is quite impressive, and it is like a job, but guess what, a lot of people have to work jobs and take out loans just to pay to go to college.

The use of saying college is just a springboard to the pros is also pretty ludicrous, in some cases it is, but in reality, a minute percentage of the kids that have scholarships and play these sports actually ever make it to the pros. Also, the fact that football and men's basketball are the only REAL revenue sports in college, should we pay everyone that is involved in college or just those on the "big money" sports? There are so many variables involved here that it's crazy. I also believe that athletes are paid plenty already. They get free tuition, room, board, books, food, tutors, and even clothes. Let alone the trips that they are given for their various athletic events. Sending golf and baseball teams on tropical trips on Spring Break counts as a vacation, I don't care if they have to play a tournament or not. Sounds pretty good to me, would probably save my parents and I about $30,000 a year, which is a whole hell of a lot of money when you are in your late teens and early 20s. Universities give them all that, I think they deserve a return of some sort on their investment, whether or not the return is unfairly skewed.

Drozmight · Mar 17, 2005

How much is their scholarship for? If it's more than tuition they get a refund check.

Cloudy · Mar 17, 2005

Athletes in sports where the schools get big tv/merchandising money need to be paid...

Truelize · Mar 17, 2005

Cloudy said:
Athletes in sports where the schools get big tv/merchandising money need to be paid...

Word up. It's freakin sick that these players make their schools millions of dollars and then they get booted out of school for taking a pocketfull of money from a booster, and are made out to look like some kinda crook.

andthebeatgoeson · Mar 17, 2005

Their product is worth billions. Of course they should be paid. It's the biggest ripoff for them to just get a scholarship.

Drinky Crow · Mar 17, 2005

No, and they should get rid of college sports entirely.

They're paid in fucking media air time and exposure, and the opportunity to maybe, possibly go pro. And, of course, the inestimable value that comes with the esteem of the vicariously retarded.

Ninja Scooter · Mar 17, 2005

no they shouldn't get paid. They are amatuers, not pros. Want to get paid, go to the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB,ect...Aren't good enough to go pro? Well then STFU and be happy that you are being givin the chance at a FREE college education.

BigJonsson · Mar 17, 2005

No

The NFL and NBA should establish minor leagues and not use schools to feed them athletes

Its a school, a place of learning dammit

Its gotten out of control in the States, I just can't understand it

Seth C · Mar 17, 2005

Archaix said:
Many get full scholarships, but after that, they are not allowed to work.

They can't hold even a part time job.

There is no argument against paying college athletes. None. A rational argument simply doesn't exist, and for proof, listen to Myles Brand ramble on incoherently for a few moments about how college athletes shouldn't be paid.

No argument? Free tuition. Housing. FOOD. Four years of professional instruction by people who probably charge thousands of dollars just to speak to people. If I went to Tubby Smith, Rick Pitino, Lute Olsen, Roy Williams, or Coach K and asked for 4 years of one-on-one basketball training, for several dozen hours a week, how much do you think that would cost? The number would be in the millions. I say they get plenty of value. They don't need to be paid.

Shinobi · Mar 18, 2005

Based on the current idiotic rules, they should get paid. It's just a question of how much or how little. But anyone with working eyes can see that these students are basically prostitues for these "institutions of higher learning".

What really should happen is that these students should be allowed to hold down a job if they wish to like any other student. That they're not allowed to do that is where the hypocrisy with the NCAA really gets thick, as they sell jerseys with the players names on it that they don't see a nickel of. Fuck the NCAA.

DonasaurusRex · Mar 18, 2005

considering how much they bring into the universities heh yeah. then again they already get paid just ask clarett.

Seth C · Mar 18, 2005

Shinobi said:
Based on the current idiotic rules, they should get paid. It's just a question of how much or how little. But anyone with working eyes can see that these students are basically prostitues for these "institutions of higher learning".

What really should happen is that these students should be allowed to hold down a job if they wish to like any other student. That they're not allowed to do that is where the hypocrisy with the NCAA really gets thick, as they sell jerseys with the players names on it that they don't see a nickel of. Fuck the NCAA.

Can't sell jerseys with player names on them till they are no longer in college.

Shinobi · Mar 18, 2005

Oh, that's nice of them...guess they deserve a star.

supermonkey · Mar 18, 2005

Um... college athletes are already being compensated even if it isn't with money, so no they don't need to be paid.

mrklaw · Mar 18, 2005

yes, I'm sure they need another excuse to strut around campus acting like they are lord of all men.

Seriously though...

They are not college athletes for the fun of it. They are doing it to get recognised, in the hope of becoming a professional athlete. Same as someone doing a medical degree wants to become a doctor.

Rorschach · Mar 18, 2005

What I don't understand is why they can't do endorsements. The NCAA pretty much owns these guys for 4 years. I'd do it for a free ride, though.

cubanb · Mar 18, 2005

Rorschach said:
What I don't understand is why they can't do endorsements. The NCAA pretty much owns these guys for 4 years. I'd do it for a free ride, though.

Id do it for a free ride too, but its no wonder that you see everyone itching to leave school earlier if they are good athletes that can make the leap to the pros. Obviously education is the last thing on their mind. For the marginal athletes, you'd hope they take advantage of the tuition and go to class in their spare time

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