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[Oppo]

It's really the preachiness that gets me. I'm not going around telling people to count their calories to stay healthy - but I have to hear why the things eating during dinner might be secretly poisoning me.

I've also started counting calories (and exercising) - which is why I recently brought it up when I told someone I was trying to lose weight and they asked me if I was eating organic. I just said 'nah, I'm not really into that, I'm just calorie counting' - and they looked at me like I was crazy. Mind you, I've lost 18lb in 3 months, and I've never been in as good shape in my life, and this person is obese.

I've been trying to not coddle people when they talk to me about stuff like this, and people haaaaate it.

Yeah I hear you. Good for you on the weight loss. For my part, I'd just point right back to what was evident. I know how tricky this can be, I totally understand what you mean about not just letting it go but not wanting to be antagonistic either. So I would probably say something like "listen, I just know what I'm doing is working, so i'm gonna stick to that for now". You can disagree but not provide any real hooks, just disengage on your terms. I like this approach also because it has a subtext of "we all believe what we believe", as opposed to you refusing to hear the supposed truth. I mean your initial answer in your example was essentially that.

The nutrition aspect probably is almost incidental in this sort of behaviour, as others have pointed out, it's just the odd "sided" issues that people kind of magnetically attach to, either through interest or peer groups or influence, or who-knows-what.

 

[singhr1]

Hey, not all tap water is created equal. Your home's water source and filtration system play heavily into how "clean" your tap water is. Hard water can contain heavy metals and contaminants that don't get filtered through your kidneys/liver easily. Also, it often doesn't taste good.

 

[JB1981]

Okay, so if I just ate potatoes, dates, mangoes and homemade bread all day (is that processed? What's processed?) I'm better off than if I eat fast food but watch all my calories? Better off in what way? What's going to happen to me?



What malnutrition issues should I be careful of? I know someone who had a serious iron defeciency, but I think it was a medical issue because she was given iron pills and not just told to eat more things with iron in it.

You mentioned the abstract and it's nature to turn religious, so let's get explicit here - are there malnutrition issues we're dealing with in the West I'm not aware of? If I sound snarky I apologize, I'm trying not to.

Simple blood panel results measuring triglycerides, cholesterol HDL/LDL ratio, and other bio markers will usually give you a good indication how the foods you are consuming are impacting your "health." Not sure what you find so confusing about this concept.

 

[Kinitari]

Simple blood panel results measuring triglycerides, cholesterol HDL/LDL ratio, and other bio markers will usually give you a good indication how the foods you are consuming are impacting your "health." Not sure what you find so confusing about this concept.

What are the concerns, what are the issues that have people saying that nutrition is a bigger concern than calories? Someone in the thread for example talked about how you could be fit, but unhealthy because of what you're eating. Why do people bring this up when I bring up calorie counting? When I say weight is the most pressing concern when it comes to healthiness, it seems like people feel the need to correct that, which is great if I need corrections, but their corrections are vague.

You mention hdl/ldl - but issues with those numbers are almost always tied to obesity, aren't they? Isn't the primary solution to hypertriglyceridemia to lose weight, because most likely you are obese?

This is my point. The health issues people worry about almost all go back to your weight and your caloric consumption. If you maintain a healthy weight by watching your calorie intake in whichever way works for you, odds are that's the best thing you can do for your health. It's like people think there's a wave of people who are calorie counting but not eating vegetables - is this actually a thing? What would it even look like?

Yeah I hear you. Good for you on the weight loss. For my part, I'd just point right back to what was evident. I know how tricky this can be, I totally understand what you mean about not just letting it go but not wanting to be antagonistic either. So I would probably say something like "listen, I just know what I'm doing is working, so i'm gonna stick to that for now". You can disagree but not provide any real hooks, just disengage on your terms. I like this approach also because it has a subtext of "we all believe what we believe", as opposed to you refusing to hear the supposed truth. I mean your initial answer in your example was essentially that.

The nutrition aspect probably is almost incidental in this sort of behaviour, as others have pointed out, it's just the odd "sided" issues that people kind of magnetically attach to, either through interest or peer groups or influence, or who-knows-what.

Yeah I guess. I think I have a lot of people like this in my life I realize, and I never challenge them on their shit when they put it on me. I'll try to be as pragmatic as you're suggesting, but lately I feel like having a bit more bite.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

The obesity epidemic disagrees with you.

I don't eat a lot of packaged food, but calories are literally the first thing I look at and IMO the most important piece of information on the label are calories and serving size.

I disagree.

The obesity epedimic is from over consumption of carbohydrates due to insulin resistance. The side effect is that when you lower carbohydrate intake you generally lower your caloric intake as well, in the form of less sugar (simple carbohydrate) consumption. If you only look at calories you may not be getting the proper nutrients in your diet.

 

[Cymbal Head]

I keep writing and rewriting a long post about nutrition being one of the most heavily fortified bastions of superstition in western culture and how much of the best science-based advice (i.e. eat a varied diet rich in plants and lean protein; mind portion size) is emotionally unsatisfying, but I keep getting distracted so here's the short version.

The part that really gets my goat is degree to which health and nutrition are framed as moral issues.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

You mention hdl/ldl - but issues with those numbers are almost always tied to obesity, aren't they?

Nope. Weight in itself is only weight. If weight were so deadly no one would lift things up and put them down. No matter what you weight, your cholesterol levels can be too high. However, there is no such thing as good and bad cholesterol, only the wrong amount.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Calories are the most useless indicator of nutrition. They are absolutely pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Example:
Which one is more nutritious. 500 calories of Doritos or 500 calories of vegetable beef soup.

The answer is probably not Doritos.

This is an overly simplistic dismal of calories. Let me guess, you blame carbs for the obesity epidemic because carbs are the evil. It's almost cultish.

The Calculus of Calories: Quantitative Obesity Research

Guest Post: Dr. Kevin Hall Asks Is The Carbohydrate-Insulin Theory Dead?l

The reason I call it cultish is that you have articles like this: How Kevin Hall Tried to Kill the Insulin Hypothesis with Pure Spin, so call it "fake news."

Not negating that low carb/keto diets work. It's that some of the claims of those adamant supporters are making unsupported claims.

 

[Shadowhelper]

I love this chart from Renaissance Perodization. Their team is made up of multiple PhD level professionals who back up their claims with scientific articles.

Look how little food composition (organic foods) matters.

I don't get what food consistency means? It's the most important step for dieting? Means doing the same thing everyday, not breaking your diet?

Food composition must matter more than that. Well, at least to how I feel and full I am it does, and that regulates how much I eat.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

I don't get what food consistency means? It's the most important step for dieting? Means doing the same thing everyday, not breaking your diet?

Food composition must matter more than that. Well, at least to how I feel and full I am it does, and that regulates how much I eat.

hint:it's an ad.
https://renaissanceperiodization.com/whens-best-time-use-iifym/
I guess this is where it is from.

also, what is a "PhD coach"? You don't need a PhD to be an RD(registered dietitian) or a fitness trainer.

 

[NandoGip]

Uhhh the worst are people who still believe that body fat literally TRANSFORMS into muscle when you work out.


edit: i seriously forgot to add in the most important word in my entire sentence.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Pink salt makes me giggle because it's just salt that's high in impurities. People out there specifically going out of their way to pay more for a worse product.

I thought it was because it had the same taste but less sodium?

 

[Borgnine]

Thread is giving me mobile ads for ham.

Woman at work is way into this bullshit, all organic, non GMO, no gluten, no sugar etc. It didn't take me long to figure out it's a smoke screen for her eating disorders and OCD. Can't eat not because I'll gain a pound but because it contains soy.

 

[Spence]

Hey, not all tap water is created equal. Your home's water source and filtration system play heavily into how "clean" your tap water is. Hard water can contain heavy metals and contaminants that don't get filtered through your kidneys/liver easily. Also, it often doesn't taste good.

Depends on where you live, in Sweden we have very good tap water everywhere, it's not dependent on individual buildings.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

This was just posted by The New Yorker
Is Fat Killing You, or Is Sugar? - The New Yorker

 

[Skinpop]

I recommend How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease by M.D. Michael Greger. Every statement in this book is followed up with a paper reference and Greger is also known to update his advice when new science and knowledge emerges - this is already more than what 99% of the advice and literature out there bothers with. This is not some branded method(I'm immediately wary of any dietary "system" that has a name) but a collection of information and advice based on what we actually know from science.

Like any literature of this sort, it's not perfect. Some say Greger has a bias toward vegetarianism/veganism so you won't find much praise for meat, fish or even eggs. I like meat but reading this book and looking at some of the studies has made me reconsider my meat consumption. It's especially illuminating how heart disease is almost entirely a product of horrible western eating habits. In short: eat unprocessed plant based foods, everything else - keep to a minimum.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

I recommend How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease by M.D. Michael Greger. Every statement in this book is followed up with a paper reference and Greger is also known to update his advice when new science and knowledge emerges - this is already more than what 99% of the advice and literature out there bothers with. This is not some branded method(I'm immediately wary of any dietary "system" that has a name) but a collection of information and advice based on what we actually know from science.

Like any literature of this sort, it's not perfect. Some say Greger has a bias toward vegetarianism/veganism so you won't find much praise for meat, fish or even eggs. I like meat but reading this book and looking at some of the studies has made me reconsider my meat consumption. It's especially illuminating how heart disease is almost entirely a product of horrible western eating habits.

Chapter 12 : How not to die of Suicidal Depression. Yes, there are some connections with nutrition and gut flora and it's association to mood disorders, but those are still preliminary. I would like more info.

This is already ringing my skeptical bells.

The diet in this book claims to reduce the risks for: acid reflux / GERD, Alzheimer's disease, anal fissure, angina, asthma, atherosclerotic plaque, Barrett's esophagus, blood infections, brain diseases, cancer (brain cancer, breast cancer, colon cancer, colorectal cancer, esophageal cancer, kidney cancer, leukemia, liver cancer, lung cancer, lymphoma, myeloma, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma (HNL), pancreatic cancer, prostate cancer, skin cancer), chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), cirrhosis, claudication, clinical depression, constipation, coronary heart disease, depressions, diabetes, prediabetes, diabetic neuropathy, heart disease, hemorrhoids, hepatitis E (HEV), hiatal hernia, high blood pressure, high blood sugar, high cholesterol, insulin resistance, kidney disease, kidney stones, liver disease, lung cancer, lung diseases, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), overweight/obesity, Parkinson's disease, respiratory infections, stroke, suicidal depression, varicose veins

heck of a claim.

 

[Skinpop]

Chapter 12 : How not to die of Suicidal Depression.

This is already ringing my skeptical bells.

The first 12 chapters deal with the 12 leading death causes in USA and how nutrition plays into that, it's not what you seem to think it is. The chapter deals with what science knows about how nutrition impacts depression.

Chapter 12 : How not to die of Suicidal Depression. Yes, there are some connections with nutrition and gut flora and it's association to mood disorders, but those are still preliminary. I would like more info.

This is already ringing my skeptical bells.

heck of a claim.

The book is quite clear on that much of the knowledge is preliminary and not rock solid. I didn't find it to be evangelical at all. The long list there isn't very surprising if you realize that Greger attempts to cover all that modern science knows about nutrition. For example on cancer, it's not like the books says here's how you can eat your way out of cancer, but rather it goes into detail on how some foods have carcinogenic compounds and how other foods counteract carcinogenics.

 

[Shadowhelper]

I recommend How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease by M.D. Michael Greger. Every statement in this book is followed up with a paper reference and Greger is also known to update his advice when new science and knowledge emerges - this is already more than what 99% of the advice and literature out there bothers with. This is not some branded method(I'm immediately wary of any dietary "system" that has a name) but a collection of information and advice based on what we actually know from science.

Like any literature of this sort, it's not perfect. Some say Greger has a bias toward vegetarianism/veganism so you won't find much praise for meat, fish or even eggs. I like meat but reading this book and looking at some of the studies has made me reconsider my meat consumption. It's especially illuminating how heart disease is almost entirely a product of horrible western eating habits. In short: eat unprocessed plant based foods, everything else - keep to a minimum.

I try to eat a shit load of vegetables, but I stir fry it along with lots of different leafy greens.

But I guess, unprocessed would mean, you should not even stir fry a bit? I guess having an almost entirely plant based no processed diet, also low in sugar, would mean getting a juicer?

Hmmmmm, I am feeling like being quite healthy atm. Might piss off the GF, but atm, there is nothing to be done about that.

 

[Spence]

The book is quite clear on that much of the knowledge is preliminary and not rock solid. I didn't find it to be evangelical at all. The long list there isn't very surprising if you realize that Greger attempts to cover all that modern science knows about nutrition. For example on cancer, it's not like the books says here's how you can eat your way out of cancer, but rather it goes into detail on how some foods have carcinogenic compounds and how other foods counteract carcinogenics.

Sounds like assumptions and bold claims, we still know very little about what causes cancer for instance, we can see some correlations and there are some recommendations but the science is not definitive enough to write a definitive guide like that. Example: https://www.wcrf-uk.org/uk/preventi...tions/limit-red-meat-and-avoid-processed-meat

 

[Miles Quaritch]

So she thinks she is gluten intolerant, but then recently found pills that she can take before eating bread or pasta that makes it not upset her digestion. This isn't a real thing, it's a sugar pill and... Well it's a made up pill that she can only take because she made up her intolerance.

The fuck. Why does she want to be gluten intolerant so bad that she's eating fucking sugar pills?

Is gluten intolerance the new 'in' thing? I remember when it was dairy and people who were eating ice cream the year before suddenly couldn't eat it.

 

[Skinpop]

.

 

[Skinpop]

But I guess, unprocessed would mean, you should not even stir fry a bit?

more like you should buy unprocessed foods.

Sounds like assumptions and bold claims, we still know very little about what causes cancer for instance, we can see some correlations and there are some recommendations but the science is not definitive enough to write a definitive guide like that. Example: https://www.wcrf-uk.org/uk/preventi...tions/limit-red-meat-and-avoid-processed-meat

There's a nasty lack of reading comprehension on gaf today. It's not a definitive guide. It's a book that explains what we know from science and how we can use that today, while admitting that much of the science is incomplete.

 

[Spectone]

I like pink salt because of how pretty the crystals look to me.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I like pink salt because of how pretty the crystals look to me.

It's not celery salt. That shit is amazing, especially on fried chicken.

 

[Spence]

There's a nasty lack of reading comprehension on gaf today. It's not a definitive guide. It's a book that explains what we know from science and how we can use that today, while admitting that much of the science is incomplete.

My reading comprehension is just fine, the title sounds pretty definitive to me: "How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease"

Either case, I haven't even read the book, it might be good I don't know, but it does sound like bold claims to me.

 

[G.ZZZ]

What are the concerns, what are the issues that have people saying that nutrition is a bigger concern than calories? Someone in the thread for example talked about how you could be fit, but unhealthy because of what you're eating. Why do people bring this up when I bring up calorie counting? When I say weight is the most pressing concern when it comes to healthiness, it seems like people feel the need to correct that, which is great if I need corrections, but their corrections are vague.

You mention hdl/ldl - but issues with those numbers are almost always tied to obesity, aren't they? Isn't the primary solution to hypertriglyceridemia to lose weight, because most likely you are obese?

This is my point. The health issues people worry about almost all go back to your weight and your caloric consumption. If you maintain a healthy weight by watching your calorie intake in whichever way works for you, odds are that's the best thing you can do for your health. It's like people think there's a wave of people who are calorie counting but not eating vegetables - is this actually a thing? What would it even look like?



Yeah I guess. I think I have a lot of people like this in my life I realize, and I never challenge them on their shit when they put it on me. I'll try to be as pragmatic as you're suggesting, but lately I feel like having a bit more bite.

You can easily have health issues while thin /normal weight. Bone density issues if you lack calcium/vit. D (not enough sunlight), anemia if you don't eat enough iron and vit. B12, high/bad colestherol and tryglicerides if you eat only/vast majority of carbs etc...
Not to talk about red meat being a primary risk factor for prostate cancer in men (and probably not just that), and sugar being suspected of various issues including developing insulin resistance (which influence satiety and the feeling of energy) and other pancreatic issues.

If you follow a vaguely decent enough diet those are problems that don't exist, but again, compare the differences in health indexes between european countries with similar BMIs and/or the longevity in certain places like Sardinia Island, Okinawa etc... Diet matter even at similar/equivalent weight, despite being certainly secondary to not being obese.

 

[oti]

People like to believe they are smart. People also like to believe they are smarter than you.

 

[Shadowhelper]

more like you should buy unprocessed foods.



There's a nasty lack of reading comprehension on gaf today. It's not a definitive guide. It's a book that explains what we know from science and how we can use that today, while admitting that much of the science is incomplete.

But isn't cooking something processing it? But I think I know what you mean.

I mean, the whole, cooked vegetables versus raw vegetables is pretty controversial to many people. Just like how if one is say allergic to Bananas, if you cook em, well you can eat em, for some reason. Like you lose some of the healthiness, but also some of the unhealthiness too. Fuck man, I dunno.

I just do a light stir fry of vegetables with a little butter and some soya sauce and chopped chilles. Does anybody juice? I think I am going to order a nutribullet, but I am not sure how much I will use it, that is why I held off. Maybe, I'll love it, who knows.

 

[V_Arnold]

What is a homepathic gluten pill? what is it for?

I've seen some really stupid shit at my job that people think they know better about their food than the guy that cooks it. Like ordering gluten free shit while drinking beer or asking me to cook them a rare steak with no pink and no blood a list of food allergies a mile long that contradict one another. (No pepper! Pink pepper OKAY!, No bell peppers...unless they're roasted and skinned, No raw carrots...cooked only! ABSOLUTELY NO COW! Filet mignon or Hanger steak is fine. NO SALT OR OIL OR DAIRY! but butter is fine) Seriously...

You're all idiots....just tell me....you dont like something dont make up bullshit.

Meh, do not go overboard. I cant stand raw carrots, makes me want to go to the toilet almost insantly (yes, I skin and wash them properly), but when it is cooked before, I could eat a kg of them and have no issues. Raw veggies vs cooked/boiled veggies ARE different.

 

[Everdred]

I recommend How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease by M.D. Michael Greger. Every statement in this book is followed up with a paper reference and Greger is also known to update his advice when new science and knowledge emerges - this is already more than what 99% of the advice and literature out there bothers with. This is not some branded method(I'm immediately wary of any dietary "system" that has a name) but a collection of information and advice based on what we actually know from science.

Like any literature of this sort, it's not perfect. Some say Greger has a bias toward vegetarianism/veganism so you won't find much praise for meat, fish or even eggs. I like meat but reading this book and looking at some of the studies has made me reconsider my meat consumption. It's especially illuminating how heart disease is almost entirely a product of horrible western eating habits. In short: eat unprocessed plant based foods, everything else - keep to a minimum.

My problem with Greger is that he frequently cites the China Study which has been debunked many times. They cherry picked data, and so does he.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I recommend How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease by M.D. Michael Greger. Every statement in this book is followed up with a paper reference and Greger is also known to update his advice when new science and knowledge emerges - this is already more than what 99% of the advice and literature out there bothers with. This is not some branded method(I'm immediately wary of any dietary "system" that has a name) but a collection of information and advice based on what we actually know from science.

Like any literature of this sort, it's not perfect. Some say Greger has a bias toward vegetarianism/veganism so you won't find much praise for meat, fish or even eggs. I like meat but reading this book and looking at some of the studies has made me reconsider my meat consumption. It's especially illuminating how heart disease is almost entirely a product of horrible western eating habits. In short: eat unprocessed plant based foods, everything else - keep to a minimum.

The author of this book was partly against Paleo a few years ago, which is just dumb imo, but has recently changed his tune. Not completely, but more studies are coming out that support eating whole foods, healthy fats, and reducing carbs.

I haven't read his book though, I prefer Fred Kummerow's research as a starting point on proper diet. You know the guy that found out transfats will kill you back in the 50s but no one wanted to believe him "fake news". He even claims eggs are a near perfect food since they contain all the essential amino acids required for life.

Ah, but what does he know right? It's not like he used his research to live past 100 or anything.

He's 102 and still doing research.

 

[Skinpop]

My problem with Greger is that he frequently cites the China Study which has been debunked many times. They cherry picked data, and so does he.

so like I said he has a bias for vegetarianism, but the cherry picking argument is a bit overblown. At least he is known for adjusting his opinion on matters in light of new research and acknowledging research flaws. It's not perfect by any means, but it's the best accessible science based book on nutrition I've come across.

I haven't read his book though, I prefer Fred Kummerow's research as a starting point on proper diet. You know the guy that found out transfats will kill you back in the 50s but no one wanted to believe him "fake news". He even claims eggs are a near perfect food since they contain all the essential amino acids required for life.

Ah, but what does he know right? It's not like he used his research to live past 100 or anything.

He's 102 and still doing research.

I'll take a look at it. Thanks! I don't think the look at me I've lived past 100 is a good argument in itself though.

 

[SeanR1221]

I don't get what food consistency means? It's the most important step for dieting? Means doing the same thing everyday, not breaking your diet?

Food composition must matter more than that. Well, at least to how I feel and full I am it does, and that regulates how much I eat.

Consistency means exactly what it says. If you're not consistently following (any) plan, don't expect results.

hint:it's an ad.
https://renaissanceperiodization.com/whens-best-time-use-iifym/
I guess this is where it is from.

also, what is a "PhD coach"? You don't need a PhD to be an RD(registered dietitian) or a fitness trainer.

It means that person has obtained a PhD (in a related field to nutrition) and they offer coaching?

https://renaissanceperiodization.com/category/team-members/

Yes you don't need it. But I'd rather listen to a team compromised of experts in their respected fields.

 

[Carn82]

Do certain types of food / drinks have certain types of effects on your body? Sure (for example, apple vinegar, or various herbs). But having a balanced diet, watch the calories and excersise regularly is still the best way to stay fit.

 

[Circinus]

Yes, it's a field that is rife with pseudoscience, probably the most so between all scientific fields.

The author of this book was partly against Paleo a few years ago, which is just dumb imo, but has recently changed his tune. Not completely, but more studies are coming out that support eating whole foods, healthy fats, and reducing carbs.

Erm, pretty much any MD and RD that has good undertanding of nutrition science is against the "paleo" diet because a lot of its claims are completely unfounded? (you don't have to be an RD, MD, paleontologist or evolutionary biologist to understand that) Which in turn helps spread misinformation about nutrition science and medicine. So of course a lot of RD's and MD's are going to be against the paleo diet..

It is not that "paleo' diet is a bad/unhealthy diet by default, but it's that the claims made by popular "paleo" diet authors like that beans and lentils and grains (whole grains as well) will make you sick, will leech nutrients from your body/prevent your body from absorbing nutrients and of course they're evil because they contain carbohydrates anyway. And anything with gluten will downright kill (exegarration of course) you going by these paleo authors.


The very premise of the paleo diet is kind of nonsense; because it misframes how evolution works.

I haven't read his book though, I prefer Fred Kummerow's research as a starting point on proper diet. You know the guy that found out transfats will kill you back in the 50s but no one wanted to believe him "fake news". He even claims eggs are a near perfect food since they contain all the essential amino acids required for life.

Ah, but what does he know right? It's not like he used his research to live past 100 or anything.

He's 102 and still doing research.

Erm, all meats/fish/eggs/insects/shellfish etc contain all essential amino acids? Potatoes, soy, certain nuts, chickpeas, avocados, quinoa etc contain all essential amino acids as well.

Someone claiming eggs are neat perfect food (in fact claiming anything is "near perfect food" without defining what that would mean) because they contain all essential amino acids makes me already skeptical of him.

Whether he lived past 100 or not doesn't really matter, but it makes for a nice story.

 

[arigato]

It's not celery salt. That shit is amazing, especially on fried chicken.

Celery salt is the best second to sea salt, *brofist*.

 

[openrob]

PhD in food science here.

Yeah, people make up the stupidest things to be concerned with in regards to food.

What should we be concerned with?