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Sony condemns pre-owned market

Divus Masterei said:
Yes, some people always buy used, but when it's practically shoved down your throat, many more will be turned to it. It shouldn't be legal to try and sway/convince someone to forgo the new game and take the used one(OH it's got no scratches, it's cheaper, blah blah blah.). Not to mention replacing new games on the stand with used ones. I've stopped going to gs, eb, since their stores have begun to look quite ugly as most shelfspace has been filled with ugly yellow/red pre-owned s/w.

How can you compete when you're thrown off the shelf into a small corner, if not a recent release a remote one, and if the costumer manages to find your title he's swayed to buy used instead?

Only thing they need to do is replace the overt stickers/signs with very small ones on the back, and clean up scratches, and consumers might not even realize they're buying used most of the time, given the vast prominent store space given to it. It is a direct threat to the industry.

Then the industry needs to start considering viable responses to this so-called 'threat', ones that don't involve circumventing personal property rights because they happen to be inconvenient.

Those in the industry need to stop living in a state of denial. There's a reason why used game sales are so strong in the US, and it's not because of the incredible sales talents of your average EB/Gamestop counterboy. What it comes down to is that most games just don't offer enough repeat play value to justify a $50+ price tag. Not for a title that the average person is going to play for a week, beat, then put aside and not look at again for months or years (or at all). Yet the industry in its infinite wisdom has decreed that the solution to this problem is to not only increase prices by $10 per title, but make it impossible for people to recover anything on their investment after they're done, while continuing to crank out the very same linear games that helped create the recycling trend in the first place.

Instead of trying to do an end-run around what consumers rightfully expect of their personal property (namely, the ability to lend it, resell it, or give it to another person as a gift if they so wish), companies ought to start seriously looking at lowering prices, developing more games that have long-term repeat play value (whether through multiplayer elements, open-ended gameplay, easy moddability, random playfield generation, or what have you - there's space to explore here), or some combination of the two.
 
second hand prices are a joke here in the UK unless you avoid GAME :P

Biggest reason for selling second hand games is profit however and places like GAME push them harder than any other places.
 
Gaijin To Ronin said:
In any case, that money should be for publishers/studios, or at least a fair percentage. Things as there are now are abusive in eyes of many industry people.

That is the most ridiculous thing ever. Not that I haven't heard it before, from publishers. But what other industry would have the arrogance to demand that they be allowed to collect profit on the same merchandise twice, three times or more?

If I trade in my car, I'm not giving money to Toyota. If I sell my monitor to get a new one, I'm not sending Viewsonic a check. If I sell my copy of Goodfellas, Warner Bros won't see a dime (unless they send Joe Pesci to collect).

And I don't expect the car lot, PC shop, or movie store to cough up money for anyone else when they sell it either. And neither does Toyota, Viewsonic, or Warner Bros. And they shouldn't. They've already received their money for that product.

So why should Sony get a cut if I sell God of War on Ebay, or to Bob in finance, or to Gamestop? Or if Gamestop sells it to Bob in finance? They shouldn't, period. They've already received $40+ for this copy of God of War. And when they sold it to Gamestop the first time, they forced them to take a few copies of Killzone and some PSPs along with it. Gamestop sucks, but they're the small-time bad guy in this scenario.



They don´t see it that way. Who provides updates? technical service? support? new online content?

A hint: not retailers

None of which is available without the original disc. They don't have to provide support, updates, content or service to me if I sold the disc to Bob. And they have the option to not support Bob, anyway, if they want, provided I ever accessed content or support when I had the game.
 
Retailers are going to have to get rid of physical media if they want to collect money on every game purchase. As long as there is physical media, I don't see anything changing for them.

And fuck them in their stupid asses anyhow. EA and Activision and other publishers are profitting aren't they? What they are making still isn't enough? Oh wait, it's never enough is it.
 
“The blame for heavy discounting of current releases can be laid at the door of the pre-owned market,” SCE UK’s commercial director Kevin Jowett (pictured) told MCV. “When consumers see pre-owned titles for £10 or £15, this fosters the perception that this is the realistic price for all games, and the new release roster looks unrealistically priced.”

what the...?

when i went back to the UK , i had all these visions of picking up a load of cheap 10 quid games... what did i find?

lots of very shit games for 10 quid, lots of very average games for 25 quid, and newer stuff for , like, 2 quid less than full retail.

what a load of bollox.
 
The best aspect of the used game market is not the price, but the selection. Many games that are no longer available new still float around for years used. They are sometimes more expensive used than new, but they are much more available.

Furthermore, when I spend $50 on a new game, I usually expect to loan it to any friends who don't own it, and I have my whole gaming life. $50 for a what is now usually a single play through a game is not worth it, and preventing used sales would most likely require a system that would prevent loaning games.
 
Phosphor said:
It's all bullshit, 500-650kr for a game in Sweden ($70-80) is not viable, cutting prices to $19.99 would cut piracy to virtually nothing.

There is a reason 80% of all swedish PS2's are chipped and it's not that people want to play imports.

Wow, 80 %?! Source? Not neccessarily saying you're wrong, but I still would like to know where you got that number from. :)
 
Gaijin To Ronin said:
Second hand industry is pretty easy to banish. Thye just need to reach an agreement to put a minor control (maybe a registration code) and the second market will dissapear for the big market.
how would that work though?

with an online connection?
 
looks at 54.99 pre-played Need for Speed Most Wanted for X360 and scratches head

Most used games I want to play are typically only $5 less than new and usually have manuals that smell like cigarettes and cat piss.
 
I never thought about the perception thing before and now I think its completely true. If the used game market didn't exist, people wouldn't bitch anywhere nearly as much about prices being too high. But the fact that you can get a 'new' game so much cheaper so repeatedly drills into your mind that you deserve a new game for $20


Also screw the publishers. All additional sales of a video game should see money going to the developers. Not for any legal justifiable reason, but because I say so and because developers are fucked over enough already when it comes to how much money they get. They get paid shit compared to software engineers in any other industry. If you could actually bring the pay checks up of these guys maybe some people that would make some really awesome games with great replayability wouldn't avoid the industry.
 
slayn said:
I never thought about the perception thing before and now I think its completely true. If the used game market didn't exist, people wouldn't bitch anywhere nearly as much about prices being too high. But the fact that you can get a 'new' game so much cheaper so repeatedly drills into your mind that you deserve a new game for $20

Who here thinks we deserve a new game for 20 bucks?
 
Phosphor said:
It's all bullshit, 500-650kr for a game in Sweden ($70-80) is not viable, cutting prices to $19.99 would cut piracy to virtually nothing.

There is a reason 80% of all swedish PS2's are chipped and it's not that people want to play imports.

him apparently.


and this topic has come up plenty of times before with people thinking new games costing $20 to be a great idea.


if you don't like my $20 figure then bump it up. I'm not saying the used market is evil, I'm not saying publishers deserve money on each further sale. The only things I believe are:

The used market upsets publishers/developers and (possibly) greatly negatively impacts their sales. They will eventually do something about this, and probably not in favor of the customer. The only really negative thing I have to say about the used game industry is that removing it could be better than the future alternative. If the used market is pushing the industry into a corner, the industry is going to attack. And legalll or illegally, could very well find a way to win. They are not going to just throw up their hands and say, 'you know what, lets just drop all our prices'

And now this thread has added to my beliefs in that I now think if the used market didn't exist people wouldn't bitch so much. I don't recall hearing people bitch about the price of games until I started talking to people that buy a lot of used games.
 
You know what ELSE would solve the used game "problem"?

If developers struck deals with game STORES to directly publish the title for exclusive sale in those stores. If a chain -is- the publisher, they'd have a vested interest in pushing as many new copies as possible.
 
Panajev2001a said:
You do not get it, those people are watching THEIR content without paying a DIME!!!!!!!!

If they come enough times to your house, they will probably never buy their own copies and they might even ask you to lend them your copy!!!! YOU CRIMINAL!!!!

I think you don't get it. There is no moral rule that says when you sell someone something that when they sell it to someone else they need to pay more money to you. It doesn't matter if it is a piece of software on a disk, or if it is an hdtv. The process and concept is still the same. There is no moral argument for paying a company twice once they have already sold a product. Making or losing money is not a moral issue.
 
Panajev2001a said:
They SELL us the disc. A retailer buying it from a person and selling it to other people is NOT their business, it is a series of PRIVATE transactions.

Next time you sell to anyone ANYTHING you have, be sure to look-up who made that item and send them a small check.

Videogame makers know they have no ground to stand on in this case and they do want to move to online distribution methods (at least partially, they could devise a way in which your game is registered needs a software download to be installed in the console to play and the disc you bought and the software in the console need to both be there for the game to start (of course registering things would mean you could download it from the PC too, the online update I mean, like you do for the XBOX 360's BC updates).

I am not sure though that a world where you cannot sell music CD's, DVD's (or their successors) or game discs to anyone would be what we like. I seriously doubt that after they were able to stop second-hand sales that prices would drop massively as they promise, we would just end up getting screwed over and we probably will.

How many people would buy as much new stuff as they do now, especially at full prices, if they knew they could not sell it to others ever ?

Think about the hypotetical case in which also game consoles were bound to the user who purchased them (registration+activation) and it would be worth noting to sell it. It would be grand when they keep doing refreshes of the same hardware... :lol.


I just want to quote it again because it's sanity. Screw their noise. Watch how much less they sell when people can't recoup any value by reselling what they knew was overpriced to begin with. This is the same crap we've been through with other mediums and all this nonsense is just preparing you for when the medium is delivered electronically and you never hold a game case to sell again.
 
Its really hard to feel sorry for huge conglomerates like Sony struggling to deal with some of the realities of capitalism.
 
Musashi Wins! said:
I just want to quote it again because it's sanity. Screw their noise. Watch how much less they sell when people can't recoup any value by reselling what they knew was overpriced to begin with. This is the same crap we've been through with other mediums and all this nonsense is just preparing you for when the medium is delivered electronically and you never hold a game case to sell again.

Thankfully the size of media required for these games keeps going up and up, so making it electronically available is still not viable until the internet can move far more data more quickly. This will keep game cases in our hands for a while still I think.
 
Phosphor said:
It's all bullshit, 500-650kr for a game in Sweden ($70-80) is not viable, cutting prices to $19.99 would cut piracy to virtually nothing


Never substimate the stupidity of the crowd.

Yesterday I bought Xenosaga Episode II for 14,57€ on play.com, Two single layer DVD's, plus extra Xenosaga Ep1 DVD with cinematics, special book-styled box with boxart, nice manual and so on...

A friend of me, even with that price, said literally: "Well, I will download it". Silly bastard...
 
DavidDayton said:
You know what ELSE would solve the used game "problem"?

If developers struck deals with game STORES to directly publish the title for exclusive sale in those stores. If a chain -is- the publisher, they'd have a vested interest in pushing as many new copies as possible.

Or the publishers could simply stop selling new games to Gamestop, driving buyers elsewhere and depriving them of the chance to badger them about trading in games or buying used.
 
Even if gamestop got no new games from publishers... how much would that really hurt them?

they'd still be buying/selling used games which is what they are making their money on any how.
 
If the publishers were willing to give the retailer a reasonable cut of the new game sale, then maybe the retailers would consider pushing used games less. Do you all realize that many of the EB and Gamestop stores would simply close up and cease to function without used games because the margins are too thin on new game sales to keep the open? That's what's happened.

Publishers are greedy, just like many other businesses.
 
sonarrat said:
Or the publishers could simply stop selling new games to Gamestop, driving buyers elsewhere and depriving them of the chance to badger them about trading in games or buying used.

I already mentioned focusing on stores that didn't sell used games... I mean, it's not like the game publishers are forced to sell games through "speciality gaming stores." See how long those last if all the new games only appear at Toys R Us, Wal-Mart, and the like.
 
DavidDayton said:
I already mentioned focusing on stores that didn't sell used games... I mean, it's not like the game publishers are forced to sell games through "speciality gaming stores." See how long those last if all the new games only appear at Toys R Us, Wal-Mart, and the like.

That would be ridiculous. Not only do the specialty stores sell used games, they're also the ones pushing pre-orders on new games every single time you walk in there. When was the last time someone at TRU or Best Buy was pushing a pre-order for Halo 3 on you? Specialty stores generate excitement for new game releases far better than any other stores.

The publishers just want their cake and eat it too. SCREW THEM RIGHT IN THE EYE.
 
Xenon said:
I'd be fine with this if I was allowed to return games that suck

Aha! They won't allow that shit ever.

See, they say you never owned it in the first place. You own a license to play it. But once you have that license to play it - they won't let you sell it back to them at all. Real convenient for them isn't it?
 
Wah wah wah. Waaahhh.

The remaining PS2 games that I am interested in buying, I likely will buy used.

Except for FFXII of course
 
Anybody defending Sony on this one -- do you realize that videogame stores as we know them virtually cannot exist with the thin profit margins on games? Stores pull in a few bucks per game, rarely more than $6 for a $50-$60 product. Pre-owned games are the life blood of videogame stores. I know a few people who work at a record store and their profit margin is only slightly less per unit than what game stores pull in for products that cost more than three times as much in some cases.

If you hate videogame stores then yes, continue to think this is a good idea. Like someone already said, this is just Sony dealing with the realities of capitalism.
 
Most of my game purchases came from the used shelf at BB. Yea, I know most of you dont agree with it but out of 15 games I've only had to return one. $10 for Chronicles of Riddick. $15 for Rainbow 6. The list goes on. There are very few games I'll risk $50-$60 at their launch. Madden for PSP ended my Madden launch day purchases forever for any system. :D
 
If publishers did make money on further sales the price of a new game could probably drop by 15% or more. If used games were no longer allowed the price of a new game might possibly drop as low as 60% of the original price (providing companies thought things through) as it would force around double the sales for any particular title.

The problem is that there is likely no data getting back to publishers about how many times 1 unit of their stock is sold to different people so they cannot plan accordingly.
 
Does anyone remember PSO for DC? Remember how once you'd played it online once, you could only ever play it online using the same Dreamcast?

I'm surprised that Sony/MS aren't doing something like this now, ie, locking the online multiplayer of titles like Madden/SOCOM/Halo to the first system they're played on.
 
The End said:
Does anyone remember PSO for DC? Remember how once you'd played it online once, you could only ever play it online using the same Dreamcast?

I'm surprised that Sony/MS aren't doing something like this now, ie, locking the online multiplayer of titles like Madden/SOCOM/Halo to the first system they're played on.

They could perhaps do this for exclusive titles but for multiplatform probably one would do it and the other would not and the one that did would get fucked over. Even people that *knew* they were never going to sell the game would buy the non locked version just because they'd be pissed off.
 
SkooBrink said:
Used game sales are illegal in Japan as far as I know.

No they're not. A few years ago the game industry over there got together and strong-armed retailers, so used games disappeared from a bunch of stores. The legality of selling used games was later proven in court, though I don't think most chains that used to sell used games started up again. But there are stores that specialize in used stuff now.
 
Dave Long said:
If the publishers were willing to give the retailer a reasonable cut of the new game sale, then maybe the retailers would consider pushing used games less. Do you all realize that many of the EB and Gamestop stores would simply close up and cease to function without used games because the margins are too thin on new game sales to keep the open? That's what's happened.

Publishers are greedy, just like many other businesses.


Not that I don't believe you, but if this is the case then how can "big-box" retailers afford to depend solely on new software? Last time I checked, my local Wal-Mart wasn't selling used games. Sure, you can argue that they make their money back on other products, but then why sell video games at all if the margins are so low/non existent?
 
Looks like the rumoured technology that associates a game disc with the PS3 in which it was first used and renders it unplayable in other machines was really being considered within Sony.

They might not go through with such a stupid and greedy idea but the hostility towards the used game market is now manifest.
 
It's hard to figure out where to stand on the matter.

On one hand, it's nice having cheaper used games available for those who want them.

On the other hand, I personally want publishers/developers to make more money. Every gamer should. It just means higher budget and better quality games. So many games these days have budget problems and used games definitely are contributing to that.

Not really sure what the solution is, but maybe it would be better if stores themselves couldn't sell used games but people could sell/trade used games with each other freely.
 
Sullenshady said:
Not that I don't believe you, but if this is the case then how can "big-box" retailers afford to depend solely on new software? Last time I checked, my local Wal-Mart wasn't selling used games. Sure, you can argue that they make their money back on other products, but then why sell video games at all if the margins are so low/non existent?

You answered your first question there - they make it back on other items in the store. Also, it's not like they are losing money on selling games, they still make a profit (albeit small). Why would they sell the games? To get you in the store, to not have to go to another store ever again, turn to Walmart for all your needs. I think the question is Why *wouldn't* they sell the games?
 
I hate Pre-owned games just as much as Sony does..

I work for EB and the markup they get off of those games are ridiculous, and the fact that they take back anything... I mean I could go and take one of my games, scratch it to shit and trade it in to EB.

Whenever someone comes into the store, I always tell them to spend the $5 extra and get a new game. I wish the whole preown community would go away. Its a waste.
 
aparisi2274 said:
Whenever someone comes into the store, I always tell them to spend the $5 extra and get a new game. I wish the whole preown community would go away. Its a waste.

From everything I have heard about EB, you won't last long there if you are doing that.
 
ziran said:
Sony condemns pre-owned market:
http://www.mcvuk.com/newsitem.php?id=747

The second hand market is obviously a problem for the industry but I think Publishers need to realise videogames are too expensive, which can only lead to bad things like consumers not taking risks and to say "A Platinum release is an assured-quality title, whereas a discounted release may not meet these same exacting standards.”... :lol
Sony sucks... greedy bastards!
 
I normally hate Sony's moral views, but this is one issue behind them about which I can get (take that, Churchill!).*

The pre-owned market is basically turning buying video games into renting them for extended periods of time. And when people only rent games, it gives no incentive for developers to focus on quality. And when quality is low, the pre-owned market is only going to get stronger. It's a self-feeding spiral, and this phenomenon is my biggest problem with today's industry (not that used games are the only reason).

* The difference is that I'm against the growth of the pre-owned market because it's ruining my beloved field of video games while Sony is against it because it's taking away from their beloved greenbacks.
 
I'd have no problem with stores reselling games be made illegal, but a person to person transaction should remain legal.
 
every single person I know that has a PSP has been illegally copying games on to their memory card. They haven't bought a single game yet. Does Sony think that THIS is caused by used game prices?
No way.
It's caused by the software being too expensive in the first place. You can sit there and say "oh well it costs a lot to make the games".. well that's tough then since people don't care how much it costs to make the games, they only care about how much money they can afford to spend on them.
And the amount of money people can afford to spend has nothing to do with the perception caused by used games- it's caused by having to pay for expensive hardware and then having to pay again for a game which is expensive.
It's not the consumers duty to pay for games. It's the publishers duty to make us want to pay for games- and right now we want to pay less. That is how business works and I don't see why the videogame industry should be treated differently than any other business.
 
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