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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike

This is truly the 1a hell SC2 deserves.

I don't understand how such a thing is possible. Where is 1 BL, 1 Muta, Nydus, bane bombs from overlords? Fucking disgusting.
Surely anyone with half a brain can see half of those are useless and drop some else where on the map, jesus fuck.

Well you need to actually think about it a little more before calling them brain dead. 1 BL? Can you see those spores and vipers? Even if he had 6-7 BL's they would get nothing done. Mutas? Lol spores. Nydus? Erm lol good luck with all the DPS in that base. Bane bombs. Well spores again vaporize overlords and the vipers make things more difficult. That's assuming that Stephano has the money left on the map to make that happen.

Sure it's possible to break a spot like that if you spend enough money but it's not nearly as easy as you think.
 
Well you need to actually think about it a little more before calling them brain dead. 1 BL? Can you see those spores and vipers? Even if he had 6-7 BL's they would get nothing done. Mutas? Lol spores. Nydus? Erm lol good luck with all the DPS in that base. Bane bombs. Well spores again vaporize overlords and the vipers make things more difficult. That's assuming that Stephano has the money left on the map to make that happen.

Sure it's possible to break a spot like that if you spend enough money but it's not nearly as easy as you think.

Money?

Stephano had 15k/9k.

Does anyone know what the quarter/semis/finals are? Bo3/5/7? Isn't mentioned here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Lone_Star_Clash_3
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Well you need to actually think about it a little more before calling them brain dead. 1 BL? Can you see those spores and vipers? Even if he had 6-7 BL's they would get nothing done. Mutas? Lol spores. Nydus? Erm lol good luck with all the DPS in that base. Bane bombs. Well spores again vaporize overlords and the vipers make things more difficult. That's assuming that Stephano has the money left on the map to make that happen.

Sure it's possible to break a spot like that if you spend enough money but it's not nearly as easy as you think.
4 Vipers in front, no spores in front since SH zone them.
Some spores will kill overlords, but he has 200/200 to spare and 15k, minerals and larva are worthless at this point.
Money for one or five Nydus would draw back forces or spawn and at least not be boring.

All Stephano has to do is kill a few building to win, but in reality he has zero need to do anything so he probably just sat there waiting for his opponent to leave which is the correct choice, but it's dumb.
 
Its time to go old school Bio Tank. Just leave about 12-15 marines to cover your base and push with MMT. (Marine Medic Tank)

You can crush most Zergs that don't know how to deal with Tanks. Just make sure they aren't sniped by Mutas and that you don't engage on Creep unsieged or unsiege ALL YOUR TANKS! ever on Creep.

You also want to keep about 3 hex space between each tank and have about 3-4 to push around the 12-15 min depending on opening and reacting to builds.
 

Zen

Banned
No StarCraft II stop not dying in korea! You are upsetting people!

Last year -> This year
TAVRHTJ.jpg



Apparently the 2.1 patch really helped get playing numbers up in Korea. Nothing close to LoL numbers, but not the completely abysmal numbers of the past either.
 

Zen

Banned
The Team Liquid Map making contest 4 has finished and here are the winners! 1v1 and 2v2 but here are the 1v1s since I do not want to copy pasta everything you can also click the link to get higher res images of the maps (needed for the winner map imo)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/449858-tlmc4-results


Third place 1v1
KTV Kamala Park
by Uvantak
kamala_small.jpg


Kamala Park, like waystation, is a two in one map. Players will always spawn in cross positions, but top left/bottom right (industrial) spawns will provide a different architecture than top right/bottom left (grassy) spawns on the map. The two different starting positions on Kamala Park play similarly to one another but the slight differences provide just enough variation without creating positional imbalances that greatly favor any single race. A good mix of open space and ramps in the center of the map will emphasize strong positioning when entering into any engagement.

The high ground third base is an interesting aspect of the map. The "industrial" spawn position will find the high ground third more difficult to take, as the destructible debris needs to be destroyed in order to make it more easily defensible when taken early. In the "grassy" spawn positions, the third base is easier to take, with the destructible debris making it easier to hold against aggression. The high ground third also provides strong defensive options thanks to the ramp. Losing control of this high ground gives your opponent a very powerful forward position to attack you from making its defense absolutely critical in a macro game. Free airspace on the edges of the map is also limited making drop play more difficult to hide from your opponent, weakening harass oriented play on this map considerably.

Second place 1v1
KTV Foxtrot Labs
by Uvantak
foxtrot_small.jpg

Second place in this contest also goes to Uvantak, which is a truly incredible feat. Innovation did not go unrewarded in this competition. Foxtrot represents quite possibly, the greatest push towards "non-standard" that doesn't rely on gimmicks, poor map design, or by providing any one race an overwhelming advantage over another. The map structure with two high ground lanes in the center is reminiscent of Cloud Kingdom, one of the greatest maps in StarCraft 2 history, and the winner of the first TLMC.

The base layout is non-intuitive and provides for a lot of strategic depth. For now, we believe the map's main focus will be securing one of the main ridges on the map providing control over various attack paths and protecting most of your bases on the low ground. Keep in mind, there are no vertical spawns on this map, which might take some getting used to. Mining out a gold base does more than provide you with minerals on this map, it gives you an additional attack path. However, the gold base is extremely exposed, making the choice to take it a tactical one. Cross positions will also give a slightly different set of tactical choices and attack paths compared to spawning horizontally making this map almost like a two in one map without relying on top/bottom vs left/right asymmetry.


First place 1v1
biome_small.jpg


While perhaps not as pretty as the previous two maps, the community was clear that it was seeking a map to radically challenge the norms of 1v1 maps. While Foxtrot subtly pushes the game in interesting directions, Biome is anything but subtle as a 5 player map which breaks all the rules. With forced cross positions, you will always have two bases to scout in order to find your opponent. Rotational symmetry often leads to concerns regarding the third and fourth bases favoring one spawn over another. Surprisingly, Biome seems to break this curse by making everyone's third and fourth bases relatively easy to take and forcing cross spawns.

Well, with easy third and fourth bases you might assume that the games are boring with a lot of turtle play however the air space in this map ensures that this cannot happen. You cannot simply contain your opponent to 4 bases and take the rest of the map. The 360 degree air space you need to defend poses a challenge to turtle play we haven't quite yet seen in StarCraft 2 to date. Warp prisms, dropships, and mutalisks will always be in the back of your mind while playing on this map. The large center also provides a lot of options to outmaneuver any attempt at a contain. Playing this map is all about controlling the center area while staying protected against the gigantic airspace around your four bases. Congratulations NemRaC on your achievement!
 

Aaron

Member
Whoever made second place really liked that purple map from WoL.

Fake edit: Cloud Kingdom as mentioned in the desc.
 
First place one looks like a giant clusterfuck. They say use air units to get by the easy 4 bases but giving Zerg or Terran 4 bases for free means that they can easily afford enough Turrets/Spores to defend basically everything but a Protoss deathball.
 

Zen

Banned
We wanted to share our thoughts and start a discussion about the Swarm Host because, like many of you, we were watching along on Saturday during Lone Star Clash 3 where there was an abnormally long ZvZ stalemate game. The potential for such with Swarm Hosts has been a consistent topic of conversation, and I assure you we’ve heard what you had to say about it. We don’t feel this type of play is healthy for the game or exciting for spectators.

Over the last few months, we’ve been internally playtesting a variety of design changes to the Swarm Host. We’ve come to believe that, in the long term, a change to overall Swarm Host design could be a good thing, but in the short term, we’d prefer to not disrupt the interesting non-stalemate Swarm Host play we currently see. Therefore, we don’t believe in removing the unit or completely redesigning it at this time. Drastic changes to the way the Swarm Host currently works could affect the game negatively, as the unit plays a key role in various matchups.

We’ve also regularly seen feedback from players who want fewer balance changes and more time for strategies to adapt to playstyles like this one. We definitely respect that opinion, but with issues like this, we do more than just listen.

Here are the main thoughts we’re working from:
1. Of course, we don't want there to ever be 1+ hour long games that are nothing except Locusts vs. Locusts.

2. We’ve only seen this a handful of times at the highest level of play.

3. As we look down the ladder, we don’t see a significant percentage of games that last more than 25 minutes, especially in the leagues below Master.

4. This playstyle is clearly not a requirement in ZvZ, and that raises questions:
1. How much do we risk negatively impacting Zerg styles and strategies (that are also fun and entertaining to watch)?
2. Are we seeing any shift (even a very slow shift) in how players answer this playstyle?
3. How do potential changes to the unit play out?


5. Because ZvZ is a mirror matchup, it doesn’t impact balance. That means we can target any changes we might make the way we did with the Spore Crawler vs. Mutalisks.

At this point, we’re taking public our discussion about finding the best adjustments that address the issue without affecting the ZvP and ZvT matchups in negative ways.

We’re thinking along these lines:
- Revert spore buff and buff hydralisk anti-air vs. biological units only.
o With this, even if Broodlords are Abducted by Vipers, they would still be great against base Defenses.
o The Mutalisk strength in ZvZ could possibly be countered a bit better by Hydralisks.
o The effect on ZvZ would be acceptable, and the potential effects on ZvP and ZvT are minor.

- Change the Viper’s Abduct ability to make massive units immune to it.
o By making Brood Lords immune to Abduct, we’d solve the stalemate. Late game ZvZ would be mostly about who wins in the air.
o There are downsides -- Abduct is a really cool ability, and it is something Zerg needs vs. Colossi in PvZ.
o To address that, we’d consider a potential buff to Blinding Cloud so that Vipers would still be a valuable utility unit in the ZvP matchup.

As always, please remember that what we’re doing here is talking -- not yet playing publicly on a balance test map. We’d really love to hear and evaluate your thoughts on these and other changes before taking further steps. Please try to keep in mind that Swarm Hosts are needed in other places in the game (such as vs. Mech), so we don’t have an option to just remove the unit.

Thank you very much, and we’re be looking forward to your feedback.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12675108879

I also think that part of the reason we have had silence for so long on LotV is because they are really fucking stuck on what to do.
 

Syf

Banned
...in the short term, we’d prefer to not disrupt the interesting non-stalemate Swarm Host play we currently see. Therefore, we don’t believe in removing the unit or completely redesigning it at this time.
prefer to not disrupt the interesting non-stalemate Swarm Host play we currently see
interesting non-stalemate Swarm Host play
tCI8jir.gif
 

Woorloog

Banned
Are they just trolling people now? (I really don't know about SC2 metagame but based on some comments here, Blizzard is either delusional or trolling. Or perhaps both.)
 

Sibylus

Banned
So they're going to leave one of the most boring units in the game untouched, and break the legs of the complete opposite?

Yeah, that makes some damned sense.
 
We’re thinking along these lines:
- Revert spore buff and buff hydralisk anti-air vs. biological units only.
o With this, even if Broodlords are Abducted by Vipers, they would still be great against base Defenses.
o The Mutalisk strength in ZvZ could possibly be countered a bit better by Hydralisks.
o The effect on ZvZ would be acceptable, and the potential effects on ZvP and ZvT are minor.

Spores really need to be nerfed against Bio. The Hydralisk change would help ZvZ be much more interesting than mass Roach vs mass Roach depending on the buff. In ZvP it would help against Protoss going Phoenix's into mass Zealot early and then not much after. Don't think it'd effect ZvT too much as Hydra's still melt to basically everything against Terran.

- Change the Viper’s Abduct ability to make massive units immune to it.
o By making Brood Lords immune to Abduct, we’d solve the stalemate. Late game ZvZ would be mostly about who wins in the air.
o There are downsides -- Abduct is a really cool ability, and it is something Zerg needs vs. Colossi in PvZ.
o To address that, we’d consider a potential buff to Blinding Cloud so that Vipers would still be a valuable utility unit in the ZvP matchup.

This is something I've thought a lot about and I always end up thinking this would cripple us in PvZ and TvZ. Zerg can't win straight up against any maxed Protoss deathball with Colossi other than Muta's which Archons (which would also be immune to abduct now too) and Phoenix's easily counter. We also wouldn't be able to grip Mothership's either which lets Protoss easily march across the map no matter how many Swarm Hosts Zerg has. In TvZ it would matter a little less with nobody going Battlecruisers anymore but not being able to abduct Thors would make Swarm Host/Muta much worse.
 

Zen

Banned
Cool still no mech buff

Im not gonna play until its buffed cause mech is the style i like

Wahhh mech is already uber good TvZ and viable TvP!

Are Brood Lords not massive? A compromise might be to prevent them from abducting massive air units. So no Tempest/Carrier/BC adducts either.... I typically have no seen the mass swarm host v swarm host ZvZ style so why is it that Vipers are also being looked at?
 

Aaron

Member
Blizzard need to move Legacy of the Void up because waiting on that is crippling their ability to balance SC2. There's at least a dozen units and matchups that need a serious rethink instead of this bandaid shit.
 

Syf

Banned
I never play in PvZs on ladder being a terran, but from what I've seen the ability to abduct massives is a vital tool for zerg vs protoss. Removing that ability would make deathballs much harder for zergs to deal with, no? And it's cool to watch skilled viper play. Don't like that idea at all.
 

Zen

Banned
Blizzard need to move Legacy of the Void up because waiting on that is crippling their ability to balance SC2. There's at least a dozen units and matchups that need a serious rethink instead of this bandaid shit.

The problem is that they are most likely kind of stuck halfway with each affecting the other. They can't fix the units in HotS without also affecting the balance and design of units that are not even final yet. They likely started designing a bunch of units for LotV without foreseeing the kinds of problems that Hots has now.
 
Wahhh mech is already uber good TvZ and viable TvP!

Are Brood Lords not massive? A compromise might be to prevent them from abducting massive air units. So no Tempest/Carrier/BC adducts either.... I typically have no seen the mass swarm host v swarm host ZvZ style so why is it that Vipers are also being looked at?

Broodlords are massive which is why Tempests destroy them. Wouldn't be that bad of a nerf but not being able to abduct Mothership's would make it impossible for us to kill a really late game Protoss deathball.
 
I still feel like i'm watching a different game to everyone else. Swarm hosts have added a new dynamic to the game and outside of TvT they have provided us games that are closer to a BW style than ever before in SC2. They actually allow us to see multiple engagements occurring across the map. PvZ right now is probably the most interesting and dynamic matchup in the game and historically it has always been the red headed stepchild of SC2 (outside of mirrors of course).

I think they need tweaking somewhat but this idea that they're just some boring unit that has ruined the game doesn't sit well with me.

Just look at some of the matches we saw tonight. You see swarm hosts constantly moving around and poking at the opponent, mean while you can have mutas harassing somewhere else and roach hit squads running around. You also constant back and forth between the main armies instead of one just steam rolling the other when they first meet.

I'm not 100% sure where i stand on swarm hosts but i do like the types of games we see with them. If they do get changed dramatically or removed hopefully they can find another way to make matchups as dynamic as they are now.

I don't think they need to get to LOTV to balance the game either. They need to focus on more units that prevent the deathball and allow multiple engagements. I actually think the game is in a pretty decent spot right now. PvP and ZvZ need some work but i think mirrors will always have their problems. They mainly need to find a way to fix the issues that terrans are having.

Personally i think the focus needs to be on units that allow more of a defensive advantage and prevent the death ball steamroll we so often see in terran matchups. I'm not sure on the exact fix but it should be based around mines and tanks. Positional units that are hard to just roll over your opponent with.

I'd like to see them tinker with either the damage they do or the supply they take up.
 
I still feel like i'm watching a different game to everyone else. Swarm hosts have added a new dynamic to the game and outside of TvT they have provided us games that are closer to a BW style than ever before in SC2. They actually allow us to see multiple engagements occurring across the map. PvZ right now is probably the most interesting and dynamic matchup in the game and historically it has always been the red headed stepchild of SC2 (outside of mirrors of course).

I think they need tweaking somewhat but this idea that they're just some boring unit that has ruined the game doesn't sit well with me.

Just look at some of the matches we saw tonight. You see swarm hosts constantly moving around and poking at the opponent, mean while you can have mutas harassing somewhere else and roach hit squads running around. You also constant back and forth between the main armies instead of one just steam rolling the other when they first meet.

I'm not 100% sure where i stand on swarm hosts but i do like the types of games we see with them. If they do get changed dramatically or removed hopefully they can find another way to make matchups as dynamic as they are now.

I don't think they need to get to LOTV to balance the game either. They need to focus on more units that prevent the deathball and allow multiple engagements. I actually think the game is in a pretty decent spot right now. PvP and ZvZ need some work but i think mirrors will always have their problems. They mainly need to find a way to fix the issues that terrans are having.

Personally i think the focus needs to be on units that allow more of a defensive advantage and prevent the death ball steamroll we so often see in terran matchups. I'm not sure on the exact fix but it should be based around mines and tanks. Positional units that are hard to just roll over your opponent with.

I'd like to see them tinker with either the damage they do or the supply they take up.

I agree completely.

Swarm hosts promote counterattacks and splitting armys in PvZ. I personally hate playing vs them but I feel from a spectator point of view in PvZ and ZvT they are amazing to watch. In ZvZ it is a boring turtle fest with long periods of literally nothing happening.

I think the game will be shown in its true light in LOTV with some big Protoss changes.

P.S. I've started playing sc2 again.
 

Zen

Banned
I still feel like i'm watching a different game to everyone else. Swarm hosts have added a new dynamic to the game and outside of TvT they have provided us games that are closer to a BW style than ever before in SC2. They actually allow us to see multiple engagements occurring across the map. PvZ right now is probably the most interesting and dynamic matchup in the game and historically it has always been the red headed stepchild of SC2 (outside of mirrors of course).

I think they need tweaking somewhat but this idea that they're just some boring unit that has ruined the game doesn't sit well with me.

Just look at some of the matches we saw tonight. You see swarm hosts constantly moving around and poking at the opponent, mean while you can have mutas harassing somewhere else and roach hit squads running around. You also constant back and forth between the main armies instead of one just steam rolling the other when they first meet.

I'm not 100% sure where i stand on swarm hosts but i do like the types of games we see with them. If they do get changed dramatically or removed hopefully they can find another way to make matchups as dynamic as they are now.

I don't think they need to get to LOTV to balance the game either. They need to focus on more units that prevent the deathball and allow multiple engagements. I actually think the game is in a pretty decent spot right now. PvP and ZvZ need some work but i think mirrors will always have their problems. They mainly need to find a way to fix the issues that terrans are having.

Personally i think the focus needs to be on units that allow more of a defensive advantage and prevent the death ball steamroll we so often see in terran matchups. I'm not sure on the exact fix but it should be based around mines and tanks. Positional units that are hard to just roll over your opponent with.

I'd like to see them tinker with either the damage they do or the supply they take up.

I agree with you, make design is also a thing that can help in this. We never would have gotten that awesome Flash v DRG (using swarm hosts) match on The King Sejong Station if the map did not encourage 2 attack paths.

Unfiltered 51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcG5qRYQyaI
Hosts: ChanManV and Destiny
Guests: EG.Huk and Cody Conners

Topics:
Lone Star Clash 3
TakeTV Ultra Invitational
Swarm Hosts
TL Map Contest 4
Q&A
 

Syf

Banned
The spore crawler nerf and hydra buff changes are probably going through to test map:

Thank you for your feedback everyone. After evaluating your feedback and discussing this subject more in detail, we’re currently thinking of adding these two changes to the balance test map (and extension mod):

- Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15+30bio to 15+15bio
- Hydralisk damage against air increased from 12 to 12+4bio

Please focus further discussion around the above adjustments only, and again, thank you very much.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12673098909#1
 

kasane

Member
Wahhh mech is already uber good TvZ and viable TvP!

Are Brood Lords not massive? A compromise might be to prevent them from abducting massive air units. So no Tempest/Carrier/BC adducts either.... I typically have no seen the mass swarm host v swarm host ZvZ style so why is it that Vipers are also being looked at?

Yeah mech is viable in TvP but its hard
 

Aaron

Member
Flash vs DRG had a hype game?
Maybe there's a reason to go to Blizzcon after all.
I don't expect there to be any terran presence at Blizzcon. Blizzard have been steadily nerfing them to replace them with a new doge based race in Legacy of the Void.
 
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