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Team Ninja doesn't know the difference between hard and cheap

Jeff-DSA

Member
Yeah, this is mostly a vent session about T1000 Kasumi in DoA4, but it's a bit more than that as well. I don't think that Team Ninja gets the difference between hard and cheap.

With Dead or Alive 4 we're introduced with the most ridiculous end boss in the history of the fighting genre. There are some guidelines that should be followed in a fighter when dealing with an end boss, but T1000 Kasumi breaks them all. Here's my personal theory about fighting game bosses:

-Should be hard to beat (not due to cheapness, but rather by ramping up the difficulty)
-Shouldn't have special rules (no teleportation during combos or EXTREMELY powerful moves)
-No immunities
-Should be playable (unlockable at some point) and not break the gameplay when picked
-Hard to master by players, but still accessible to those willing to learn

On top of adding in a cheap boss they have the nerve to make you beat her 2 out of 3 rounds in Time Attack. For me this kills the Time Attack mode and after I unlock Tengu I'll have absolutely no reason to go back to it. You can be an expert but get beat because she manages to reverse you twice with that stupid "talk to the hand" throw or that one where she beats on your head fifty times.

Ninja Gaiden, while being one of the best games of the generation, is still plagued with moments of true cheapness. Off-screen projectiles aren't hard, they're cheap. It's stupid that you have to sit there and take a step, block, take a step, block, take a step, a block, etc. until you make your way to a projectile-type enemy. There are also FAR too many instances when you'll be in a group fighting well and off-screen enemies pepper you with guns or throwing stars as well. It's not hard, it's cheap.

I hate cheap crap in games. I can deal with an insanely hard game (see: Ikaruga, Gradius V, CoD2 on Veteran), but I hate that sometimes developers add things into games that negate skill with cheapness. To beat DoA 4's boss, you aren't allowed to play your normal style, you have to resort to gimmicks to win (like only using charge moves and other exploits).

Anyway, to prevent this from being a totally useless venting session, what are some other moments in games that you remember being extremely cheap?
 
Yeah,I keep reading complaints about the difficulty on DOa4,specially the final boss. Tekken 5's final boss was pretty cheap as hell.
 
When you get surrounded in Ninja Gaiden Black by some of the later enemies, it can get pretty brutal; often bordering on cheap.
 
Tekken 5. Tekken 5. Oh Lord, Tekken 5. If you're into building your blood pressure to dangerous levels in as short a time period as possible, play yourself some Tekken 5 and try beating the final boss.
 
Cheap is when your comp-controlled mate jumps into the fire without any protection or care (Goldeneye).

That said, almost every game on earth is cheap instead of being hard (VJ being a very good example).
 
Shard said:
T-1000 Kasumi?
DOA4 end boss... Final result of the Kasumi clone that DOATEC has been working on forever. She looks like Kasumi sans clothing, but she's transparent and looks like water.
 
I call her Abyss Kasumi. And, yeah, shockingly cheap, especially that neck-snap-mind-blast thing combined with the constant teleportation. It was a relief to finally beat story mode. Not looking forward to Time Attack.
 
Bunch of cry babies. Viewtiful Joe wasn't cheap. Ninja Gaiden wasn't cheap. Same as DOA4. You guys just suck
 
Ninja Gaiden isn't cheap. And consequently a game that will no doubt be mentioned later on in this topic (DMC3) isn't cheap either.

Cheap is something that cannot be overcome, regardless of player skill level.

The fact that many peole can SS rank Dante Must Die mode in DMC3, as well as clearing Very Hard in NG is a testament to the factor.

'Rough around the edges', 'not so pick up and play friendly' may be more appriopiate slogans, but not cheap. Hell, I'd take an "annoying"--but not cheap.
 
doesn't seem like you can articulate the difference between hard and cheap either. your preferences for fighting game bosses are arbitrary -- i like the "cheap" ones that force you to develop specific strategies.
 
Well, let us gague how cheap Smile Kasumi is, like for example would she be right at home in
a Mortal Kombat game?
 
I really don't see why this board, seemingly as a whole, feels the Mortal Kombat games are so cheap. They were... easy. Of course, by the time 4 came out, I stopped bothering with them, but all the earlier ones are SIMPLE.

SCIII would border on being cheap if not for some rather easy anti-AI moves.
 
gill0qs.gif
was cheap
 
Well, it is more a symptom of Midway as a whole then just Mortal Kombat since a lot of thier games tend to be rather unbalanced.
 
Also, not being able to beat it period = impossible, not cheap.

Cheap is a very valid descriptor for games that derive their difficulty not from any actual challenge but bad/annoying gameplay implementation. There are LOTS of cheap games out there. NG isn't cheap though, and I haven't played DOA4 so I have no idea.
 
You freakin' people who don't play fighting games. If you won't listen to me, who will you listen to?

governor-schwarzenegger.jpg


"STOP WHINING. YOU GIRLY MEN LACK DISCIPLINE!"

The word "Cheap" is the scapegoat of the unskilled. thx.
 
Yea sure, Noob Saibot's Invincibility Fireball or Jade's Anti-Projectile Run were both not cheap and unbalanced moves.
 
I would define cheap as something the player can only get past through luck or happenstance, not any actual skill. Using this definition, I don't think all that many games are truly cheap.
 
human5892 said:
I would define cheap as something the player can only get past through luck or happenstance, not any actual skill. Using this definition, I don't think all that many games are truly cheap.

That's rather limiting in a way though, I also find cheapness when the opposition has rediculious amounts of advantages that out prioritize you in fighters. I mean sure I can beat Gill now and on a regular basis, we get better with pratcice, that still doesn't mean I don't find him cheap in regards to what he can do.
 
Cheap was in Ninja Gaiden on Xbox, having to go through a long stretch with no save points and then having to fight a boss.
 
Some of you obviously didn't read the first post noting the difference between hard and cheap. Viewtiful is not cheap, it's hard. With an amount of skill, you can finish the bosses without getting hit.
 
seems like cheap is just replacement for "too difficult" for some people. reguarding SNK boss syndrome these types of challenges are often based on some pattern or AI exploit.
 
It's funny how all the doa fans rave about the game's depth, and the fairness of the reversals/counters.... and then this thread pops up and whines about the game being cheap and unfair.

I guess this is the state of doa players.
 
For fucks sake I beat the last boss and I can't stand DOA. So did the animator in our office and he had never played the game before that (took him some tries).
 
Wow, i was just having this discussion with a friend the other day.. weird.

DOA4 has the cheapest AI ever. And the final boss is the worst culprit. Throws that take like half of your health and aren't escapeable.. WTF? She'll just get you caught in a massive combo you can't get out of.

COD2 on veteran, on the other hand, is really hard (much harder than DOA), but i never felt that it was the game being a cheap bastard.. just my fault.
 
Reilly said:
There's a ton of cheap stuff in RE4, but that's mostly because of the bad controls and camera.
oh, you play the ps2 version i presume?


There's nothing cheap in re4. Cheap is when a boss is only beatable if they happen not to use a certain move. Some RPG bosses, if they use a particular move (often randomly preformed) more than once in a battle youre fucked and have to try again, praying he doesnt do the same thing.
 
It's stupid that you have to sit there and take a step, block, take a step, block, take a step, a block, etc. until you make your way to a projectile-type enemy.
Here's my first sardonic protip that probably was in Gamepro's review of Ninja Gaiden...

Protip: Pressing L to block then moving the analog stick in any direction will result in Ryu rolling, a move that let's you get out of many sticky situations quickly.
 
koam said:
Cheap was in Ninja Gaiden on Xbox, having to go through a long stretch with no save points and then having to fight a boss.

By that definition, practically every NES game ever created would be considered 'cheap'.
 
Sugarman said:
I guess I'm the only person in the world who had a harder time with Tengu than with the DOA4 boss.

You are. Sorry :(

I mean Tengu is one of the easiest bosses in fighting game history. HE'S HUGE AND SLOW. You just run up and jump kick him, then do a fast combo before he can hit, ending it with a knockdown move, then run up and jump kick...repeat.
 
Amir0x said:
Viewtiful Joe is not cheap, it's awesome!
:D Seriously, I really didn't think it was THAT hard. The hard part is figuring out what to do. Now F-Zero GX, that is fucking hard. I haven't played through all of Ninja Gaiden, but for the most part, it's just hard. Not cheap.
 
Anything that's pattern-based, aka. VJ, cannot be cheap since you just need to learn a specific pattern.

It's patternless AI that just randomly kills you out of nowhere that is cheap like the DoA4 boss.
 
The problem with the DOA team is that they are forgetting what AI is sapposed to be, to mimic human reactions as close as you possibly can. I don't even want to see how bad DOA4 gets on Very Hard difficulty. I am guessing it would be like going into a fighting games training mode and turning the dummy to "counter every hit".
 
raYne said:
DOA4 end boss... Final result of the Kasumi clone that DOATEC has been working on forever. She looks like Kasumi sans clothing, but she's transparent and looks like water.

What the..? Are you serious? Got any images?
 
While it does sound like DOA4s idea of difficulty is cheap and annoying, cheap AI, and cheap bosses especially have become almost standard in fighters.

SNK games are full of them, Neo Geo Battle Col is horrid for it, as is the KOF series. I don't think i've ever not cheesed a SNK boss. Capcom have had some pretty horrid ones too in the vs series.

Nevermind Namco with the absolutely horrible Tekken 5 boss, and similar, but slightly less annoying because hes easier to cheese Soul Calibur boss.

The only boss i can remember liking i think was Mahler from the Fighting Vipers series, or Bison.

I'm undecided on Dural, usually beats me so damn fast i cant decide whether its cheap or just good AI.
 
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