That Metal Gear Solid 2 AI speech keeps getting more and more real by the day

I don't know that I agree with the "never" narrative, but it certainly doesn't seem likely in the next 10 years. 20, 30, 40, 80, 100+ years? More than likely. I was just responding to OP.

Real Ai will have to be conscious and actually think (not like those ML models). I'm not sure we are able to do something like that, but who knows.

I was just making fun with that picture, 12 minutes is nothing compared to few hours long cutscenes in MGS2, lol.
 
I don't know what's up with everyone constantly trying to undermine Kojima's contributions to gaming and now even his own gams but it's weird how that has been going on for the past few years.

5 more years and you all will be saying everything was done by ghost-writers, ghost-producers etc and he was at home or something. The game was written by 2 people and he was one of them...and you say "none of these ideas" were his? Really?
Hey mate, I think myself and a lot of Kojima fans tend to think he was good when he had people reigning him in or working with him.
Once we hit MGS4, it all goes down the shitter. His previous works and side works of that era were awesome too

ps I type this while waiting for a space in a server on MGO2. A long dead zombie game that's been resurrected for a decade thanks to its cult following
 
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Real Ai will have to be conscious and actually think (not like those ML models). I'm not sure we are able to do something like that, but who knows.

I was just making fun with that picture, 12 minutes is nothing compared to few hours long cutscenes in MGS2, lol.
We tend to call everything AI, (I remember it being used to describe enemy behavior in games as early as mid-90's) but we know it's not real AI. Recently I just found out about an "AI" Twitch streamer called Neuro-sama and it was impressive how "she" is capable of following a conversation, making jokes, roasting other streamers, bypass the censorship filter, trying to trick her creator saying her AI glitched, etc.

It's downright scary how easy my brain can "forget" she is actually not self-aware... because she isn't, right? She can't be. :messenger_fearful:
 
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Kojima is not a good manager of game development studios. If he was, he wouldn't have been kicked out from Konami.
Hideo got kicked out of Konami for being a prima donna, not for being unable to manage a studio. Remember that after leaving Konami, Hideo created his own gaming studio, Kojima Productions, which has produced multiple games already. If Hideo couldn't manage a game studio, that wouldn't have happened.

>Why do you think he didn't write any of that?

I didn't say he didn't write it. I said he didn't come up with the ideas.

The most prominently cited influence is Richard Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene—specifically its concept of memes as units of cultural transmission, which underpins the Patriots' AI rationale about filtering and propagating information in the Arsenal Gear conversations. The book Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid—specifically Hofstadter's concepts of "strange loops," self-reference, and emergent meaning—framing the Patriots' information curation and the game's recursive, reality-questioning design as a memetic, self-referential system also informed MGS2's AI monologues and meta-structure through the ideas contained therein. Other direct ideas from Neuromancer and Ghost in the Shell were shoehorned into MGS2.

>The motherfuckers (whoever they were) even had fucking Arsenal gear crashing with the twin towers before 9/11

The idea of something destroying the twin towers in fictional media was not uncommon. The towers were iconic, well known, prominent super structures emblematic of USA's success. They invited speculative destruction as a result.

>If you mean that he got ideas from other works

Yes.

>I would challenge you to tell me about a game with novel concepts like this that turned out to be relevant 20 years later

Exhibit A:

9170_front.jpg


>His cutscenes are definitely on the longer side and that's part of his style and the kind of shit his fans like

What you describe as "on the longer side" some might describe as "insufferably overindulgent".

I've beaten many of Hideo Kojima's games and enjoyed most of them. I'm not a hater. But I won't pretend the man is without fault or some kind of unassailable auteur.
 
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This conversation in MGS2 went over my head when I played it as a young teen in 2002-ish.

I rewatched it a couple years ago, and suddenly, I had lived through the context for it to make sense.

Pretty amazing foresight. Don't really care if the ideas were explored earlier in other media.
 
The brain rot is fucking real.
You've done nothing but abuse your freedom
You dont deserve to be free!


FF7(og) is my favorite game of all time
But MGS2 is objectively the best game thats ever made because of that story and that codec call. 11/10

That game broke the barrier of being a game.

Raiden turn off the game now!
 
Hideo got kicked out of Konami for being a prima donna, not for being unable to manage a studio. Remember that after leaving Konami, Hideo created his own gaming studio, Kojima Productions, which has produced multiple games already. If Hideo couldn't manage a game studio, that wouldn't have happened.

>Why do you think he didn't write any of that?

I didn't say he didn't write it. I said he didn't come up with the ideas.

The most prominently cited influence is Richard Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene—specifically its concept of memes as units of cultural transmission, which underpins the Patriots' AI rationale about filtering and propagating information in the Arsenal Gear conversations. The book Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid—specifically Hofstadter's concepts of "strange loops," self-reference, and emergent meaning—framing the Patriots' information curation and the game's recursive, reality-questioning design as a memetic, self-referential system also informed MGS2's AI monologues and meta-structure through the ideas contained therein. Other direct ideas from Neuromancer and Ghost in the Shell were shoehorned into MGS2.

>The motherfuckers (whoever they were) even had fucking Arsenal gear crashing with the twin towers before 9/11

The idea of something destroying the twin towers in fictional media was not uncommon. The towers were iconic, well known, prominent super structures emblematic of USA's success. They invited speculative destruction as a result.

>If you mean that he got ideas from other works

Yes.

>I would challenge you to tell me about a game with novel concepts like this that turned out to be relevant 20 years later

Exhibit A:

9170_front.jpg


>His cutscenes are definitely on the longer side and that's part of his style and the kind of shit his fans like

What you describe as "on the longer side" some might describe as "insufferably overindulgent".

I've beaten many of Hideo Kojima's games and enjoyed most of them. I'm not a hater. But I won't pretend the man is without fault or some kind of unassailable auteur.

Deus Ex? What concepts are novel? It came out in 2000, Shockwave Rider came out in 1975, Neuromancer in 1984...

What media could you recommend that touches upon AI being used to filter content as a control mechanism by the elites before 1999 (when MGS2 production started)? I'm unsure of the references you mentioned because I haven't read them but evolution of course wouldn't be a novel concept and self references don't think are the main idea within MGS2. To me the surprising part is the specific reference to Internet becoming what it is today in particular. Not in a cyberpunk kind of way (digital presence, dystopian future or even the existence of malevolent AI) but in a grounded kind of way before facing the issues we are facing today.

Crap like nanomachines and all of that I think are more common concepts and would only consider the parasite approach as it is clearly fantastic and has close to 0 chance of becoming a reality.

Nobody knows exactly why Kojima was kicked out but from my perspective it was because he was taking too long with the game (first image shown in 2011 and by 2015 when the game was rushed it was still not complete).

And regarding the cutscenes yes, it is a matter of taste. To be honest I liked them a lot at the beginning because it was pretty new but nowadays I have less patience. I fell asleep once playing Death Stranding lol
 
Not only AI, but now governments trying to pass bills worldwide censoring Internet, using "protect children" as an excuse. We're close to having a real life Patriots AI governing us.

It's interesting to me that people can believe this, but deny the potential for that thing called "The Mark of the Beast." and an "antichrist" who will essentially be the same thing as the patriots, but all rolled into one person instead of a group. yeah, it might not happen tomorrow, or next week, or next year or even in the next 20 years, but something like that is coming. Hope it happens AFTER our lifespans because fuck that.
 
Deus Ex? What concepts are novel? It came out in 2000, Shockwave Rider came out in 1975, Neuromancer in 1984...

Your original question wasn't about novel concepts, your original question was about speculative science fiction that a 20+ year old video game portrayed which has since come true.

Deus Ex (released in 2000) included these concepts that since have come true: Mass surveillance via global eavesdropping systems and data-mining algorithms (ECHELON-style interception, automated profiling, and "surveillance AIs"). Algorithmic profiling that anticipates social networks' surveillance-capitalism dynamics (people trading privacy for visibility, data-driven identity inference). Ubiquitous facial recognition/biometrics and AI creeping into daily life as decision-augmentation rather than humanoid robots. Symbolic, media-amplified terrorism targeting landmarks and public perception (terror as theater in the 21st century). Domestic terror threats and biosecurity fears shaping policy and policing. Elite capture of critical infrastructure and information channels (private power influencing global communications/governance). Cyberwarfare and hacking as routine tools of state and non-state conflict. Conspiracy-enabled misinformation ecosystems flourishing online. Pandemic/biothreat anxieties normalizing emergency powers and securitized public health. Drone-style remote operations and privatized paramilitary/security forces. And "the grey death" disease was basically COVID.

>What media could you recommend that touches upon AI being used to filter content as a control mechanism by the elites before 1999

The Shockwave Rider
(John Brunner, 1975) — Early vision of algorithmic profiling and elite-controlled data networks used to shape public perception.

This Perfect Day (Ira Levin, 1970) — Central supercomputer curates and censors all available information to maintain social control.

Snow Crash (Neal Stephenson, 1992) — Corporate/elite-driven control of digital media and information through algorithms and virtual spaces.

Brazil (1985) — Computerized bureaucracy alters, suppresses, and "corrects" records to shape reality.

The Matrix (1999) — AI constructs a total reality filter, controlling what humans can perceive and "know."

>the specific reference to Internet becoming what it is today in particular

EM Forster's The Machine Stops (1909) depicts a globally networked society where individuals live in isolation, communicate via instant audiovisual links, rely on a centralized information repository, and consume algorithmically mediated lectures and messages—anticipating video calls, online lectures, social feeds, and platform dependence in a grounded, infrastructural way. Check it out. Also, from the 'London Times' of 1904" (Mark Twain, 1898) — He envisioned a "telelectroscope," a global communications network over wires enabling real-time viewing of distant events and public verification (a proto-livestream/webcam scenario), effectively prefiguring the social and informational functions of the modern Internet.

>nanomachines parasite approach

Achieving parasitic nanomachines would require autonomous, error-corrected self-replication using host-derived precursors (e.g., amino acids, nucleotides, lipids) via molecular mechanosynthesis or ribosome-compatible biohybrid pathways, coupled to a metabolic module that harvests chemical free energy in vivo (e.g., ATP synthase–like proton gradients, redox cycling on NAD(P)H, or catalytic use of heme/iron-sulfur clusters) to power locomotion, synthesis, and repair under physiological conditions. Yeah, we're not there yet - to my knowledge. These nanomachines would also need adaptive information processing and control at the nanoscale (e.g., embedded DNA/RNA/protein logic circuits with feedback, CRISPR-class sensors, and quorum-like communication) to implement tissue tropism, immune evasion (wacky stuff like glycan cloaking, complement control, MHC modulation), error surveillance (mismatch/oxidative damage repair), and lifecycle regulation, all within a robust materials framework (self-healing protein/DNA origami or metamaterials) that resists proteases, oxidative stress, and shear forces while maintaining biocompatible interfaces for host resource extraction. In other words the nanomachine would need to be far more biological in form and function than it is synthetic, to the point that modern technology cannot achieve to civilian access knowledge at least.

>I fell asleep once playing Death Stranding

MGS4 nearly broke my patience but I made it through that. More so out of sunk cost fallacy than actual intrigue.
 
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It's interesting to me that people can believe this, but deny the potential for that thing called "The Mark of the Beast." and an "antichrist" who will essentially be the same thing as the patriots, but all rolled into one person instead of a group. yeah, it might not happen tomorrow, or next week, or next year or even in the next 20 years, but something like that is coming. Hope it happens AFTER our lifespans because fuck that.
Amen!

Although it's definitely happening in our lifespan way sooner than most people think possibly within the next decade or even within the next 10 years with how things are going.
 
I completely disagree with the idea, that seems to be established now, that Kojima was always bad at writing.

MGS series had some genius stuff. MGS2 is a masterpiece and imo the most relevant MGS game.
Kojima is a really good "concept" writter, he doesnt know shit about writting characters tho. He is a genius creating arcs and overarching plots, but the moment to moment conversations are insanely bad. MGS V and Death Stranding have very good themes, MGS V is way ahead of his time with the "english is a parasite" that is not even funny but the actual script its so bad
 
Kojima is a really good "concept" writter, he doesnt know shit about writting characters tho. He is a genius creating arcs and overarching plots, but the moment to moment conversations are insanely bad. MGS V and Death Stranding have very good themes, MGS V is way ahead of his time with the "english is a parasite" that is not even funny but the actual script its so bad
Kojima was good when he had a co-writer that could turn his ideas into a comprehensible story.
 
It doesn't really matter even if there are other things that predicted the current world, or whatever.

I mean, not just for AI, if we searched long enough, we could find lots of "prophetic" stuff for everything.

What does matter is that MGS2 won the test of time, and is most familiar to people.
 
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