The disparity between the excellent Neogaf community and Buy/Sell thread thieves

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Speevy

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I have been thinking about this for a while and whether this is a topic worth discussing or just something that people PM a mod about.

The fact is that I have been lucky in dealing with Neogaf members. I sent a Neogaf member money just the other day and he ordered me another phone so I wouldn't have to pay an extra $50. This person did me right and I got the phone the phone yesterday with no problems. Thanks once again to Shark Johnson who is a stand-up guy.

I see insane deals on the Buy/Sell/Trade thread all the time. I see great people selling excellent hardware, software, and merchandise in really terrific condition. If there was ever a case to be made for how a community of trust can be built over time with the excellent feedback system and reasonable rules present therein, it's that thread. It really is an asset to the forum.

But sometimes, things happen. People offer something at an insane discount and run right off with someone's money.

Now, I see the forumers playing detective when this happens and trying to get their money back, and that is just another example of the community aspect. People look out for each other.

But I have an opinion on the matter that might be somewhat unpopular.

If you're selling (for example) a game console on a message board, you probably need the money and a quick turnaround so you're willing to communicate with people and ship out in a fairly short time frame.

Why aren't these accounts and all associated accounts (the mods know the dupes) not nuked from orbit? Why is every piece of information not publicly disclosed in the same way that the terms of service assures me I have no right to anything I post?

It doesn't seem like any leniency is owed to people who are clearly running off with peoples' hard earned money.

Now you may think I'm being too harsh. Maybe it does take 2 weeks to ship a PS4 or whatever.

But there are many things you can get a permanent vacation for, and I'm not complaining about that. In fact, I love Neogaf's moderation. It makes for a community comprised of the very best people, except thieves, who are the very worst people.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
 
Wow, there's actually instances of posters running off with other member's money? You would think along with the public shaming that entails, they would be banned for life. Is that not the case?
 
orthodoxy1095 said:
Is there a problem with thieves of late in the B/S/T threads? Never had an issue myself.
Click to expand...

Not really. One pops up occasionally and people get made aware of it and that's that. Hasn't been unusually prevalent or anything.

PeakPointMatrix said:
Wow, there's actually instances of posters running off with other member's money? You would think along with the public shaming that entails, they would be banned for life. Is that not the case?
Click to expand...

They are usually banned but I think in a lot of cases, people don't PM the mods and they don't watch it directly.
 
deal with peeps with higher rating, whose BST several times before. If its a newcomer they have to ship first. but I probably have 20+ deals done and never had a problem. Everyone I dealt with have been awesome.
 
B/S/T is only allowed on here because it is first and foremost at everyone involved's own risk.

Neogaf staff cannot be the ones to oversee transactions going on there less the site itself be liable for any particular wrongdoing that takes place or at least that's how I've always seen it.
 
I think it can just be a very hard thing to track who's telling the truth, as well as the time it would take to verify things. NeoGAF moderators aren't paid, the website isn't a retailer with all those systems in place to keep things in check. Short of extreme circumstances it's probably fair not to expect them to step in often. PM them as well, don't expect active monitoring. You use it at your own risk.
 
Yeah, I'm by no means warning you that the thread is dangerous.

I'm saying the few shitbags there are need hastier justice is all.
 
SwiftDeath said:
B/S/T is only allowed on here because it is first and foremost at everyone involved's own risk.

Neogaf staff cannot be the ones to oversee transactions going on there less the site itself be liable for any particular wrongdoing that takes place or at least that's how I've always seen it.
Click to expand...

Mods have let it be known in the thread tht they will take out the trash if something happens though. They're just not going to constantly police it for basic thread rules and stuff.
 
ZeroX03 said:
I think it can just be a very hard thing to track who's telling the truth, as well as the time it would take to verify things. NeoGAF moderators aren't paid, the website isn't a retailer with all those systems in place to keep things in check. Short of extreme circumstances it's probably fair not to expect them to step in often. You use it at your own risk.
Click to expand...

And I get that. But you use any thread at your own risk. All I'm saying is that when it's obvious that someone is a scammer, it shouldn't be harder to ban them than it is to ban someone for making a snarky comment.
 
The recent bad rap is why I didn't sell my PS4 there in the first place.

Which is a shame, because GAF is probably one of the more tighter-knit communities that I've been a part of, and it's always money that fucks things up like that.
 
Speevy said:
Yeah, I'm by no means warning you that the thread is dangerous.

I'm saying the few shitbags there are need hastier justice is all.
Click to expand...

Can't you mandate that newer traders have to send/pay first for the first couple of interactions? Or does this come off people with good history?
 
I would assume it's two reasons.

1. Buy and Sell is not the focus of the site, it's not really the moderators' job to police trades, since it has nothing to do with posting.
2. Following up the previous comment, issues with the buy and sell thread are typically resolved outside of Neogaf. Paypal disputes or items never seen outside pictures. What happens in situations when both users have an issue? Ebay like issues, etc.

I believe people have been banned prior for scams and such, but typically it happens when it's someone who does it several times over where there is no doubt they are a problem.
 
Speevy said:
And I get that. But you use any thread at your own risk. All I'm saying is that when it's obvious that someone is a scammer, it shouldn't be harder to ban them than it is to ban someone for making a snarky comment.
Click to expand...

Are the mods actively being made aware with evidence? Not just posts, but messages.
 
statham said:
deal with peeps with higher rating, whose BST several times before. If its a newcomer they have to ship first. but I probably have 20+ deals done and never had a problem. Everyone I dealt with have been awesome.
Click to expand...

The problem is, the last few big scammers we've gotten have been people with higher rating. The few juniors who do it usually make it really obvious, while it's the people with rating who take a while to catch because their 1st negative feedback could be seen as a fluke when compared to their 30+ sales they've done. Some of them usually catch several people the moment they decide to stop being legit, usually through a deal that's "too good to be true" and they decide that they have a bunch of things to sell and tell people the one they "sold" wasn't the last, when in reality they only have 1 and that 1 likely wasn't even sold. Even had a few that sell keys that deactivate after several months and by the time people figure that out, they've already caught dozens of people in their trap.
 
ZeroX03 said:
And you've PMed a mod? Don't just expect them to read the thread constantly.
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I expect that it's been done already, but I've seen this very situation happen with others and it seems these jokers just post with impunity for weeks on end.
 
Hi, sorry someone apparently scammed you. That sucks.

Three things:

1) We absolutely, positively, utterly do not have the energy, manpower, or inclination to police the B/S/T thread. If the community has an expectation that moderation is going to be able to resolve disputes, even involving serial scammers, then we'd rather shut the thread down. We've made it clear to the people overseeing the thread and to posters who post in the thread many times over the years. If somehow that has become unclear let me clarify it: Buyer beware. Someone posting in B/S/T could be a scammer. If they do scam you, you will have no recourse. We don't get involved in this stuff. Again, if that seems unfair we'd rather just not have any B/S/T thread at all than have to deal with investigating and adjudicating the stuff. The B/S/T thread rules make this clear, that it's unofficial, not sanctioned, and that those running it aren't mods. Sorry if this wasn't clear enough.

2) We have periodically in the past banned serial scammers who re-reg for violating our one account per person policy, or for spamming, or for other rule violations. This typically happens when the person comes to our attention, but this is absolutely subject to thing #1--feel free to keep us in the loop if there's an evolving situation with someone in B/S/T, but if there is even the shadow of an expectation that having done this in the past obligates us to support stuff going forward, we just won't have a B/S/T thread.

3) We are not going to release the personal information of users to other users, irrespective of what those users may have done wrong. The thing you noticed in the TOS was a minor bit of legalese added many years ago because a writer for a blog wanted to quote some GAF posts (no money changed hands) and apparently if you don't have a "We have a license for your posts" thing in your terms of service that can cause issues. This is why every website has 9,000,000 page terms of services.

Hope this clarifies stuff.
 
Speevy said:
I expect that it's been done already, but I've seen this very situation happen with others and it seems these jokers just post with impunity for weeks on end.
Click to expand...

If you don't know if it's been done for sure, do it yourself? There's no harm in it.

E; well there you go, Stump made it clear they're not police
 
Volimar said:
Can't you mandate that newer traders have to send/pay first for the first couple of interactions? Or does this come off people with good history?
Click to expand...

i don't think a lot of people do trades here. but i've never had a b/s/t transaction where i didn't send money or get paid first...why wouldn't you? the best way to counter scammers would be to stop sending friend and family and front whatever percent the fees are.
 
Pellegri Testament said:
The problem is, the last few big scammers we've gotten have been people with higher rating. The few juniors who do it usually make it really obvious, while it's the people with rating who take a while to catch because their 1st negative feedback could be seen as a fluke when compared to their 30+ sales they've done. Some of them usually catch several people the moment they decide to stop being legit, usually through a deal that's "too good to be true" and they decide that they have a bunch of things to sell and tell people the one they "sold" wasn't the last, when in reality they only have 1 and that 1 likely wasn't even sold. Even had a few that sell keys that deactivate after several months and by the time people figure that out, they've already caught dozens of people in their trap.
Click to expand...

If you used paypal, couldn't you dispute the charges? I get its frustrating, but I do believe most people are still covered when it comes down to it. This is your protection I would assume most are taking.

Nevermind, the dog has weighed in.
 
Besides thieves there are also bundle "scammers" in that thread. Buy a HB for 1$, wait till the bundle runs out and sell each game
for 5-10$ to people who didnt know about the bundle or missed it...
 
Stumpokapow said:
Hi, sorry someone apparently scammed you. That sucks.

Three things:

1) We absolutely, positively, utterly do not have the energy, manpower, or inclination to police the B/S/T thread. If the community has an expectation that moderation is going to be able to resolve disputes, even involving serial scammers, then we'd rather shut the thread down. We've made it clear to the people overseeing the thread and to posters who post in the thread many times over the years. If somehow that has become unclear let me clarify it: Buyer beware. Someone posting in B/S/T could be a scammer. If they do scam you, you will have no recourse. We don't get involved in this stuff. Again, if that seems unfair we'd rather just not have any B/S/T thread at all than have to deal with investigating and adjudicating the stuff. The B/S/T thread rules make this clear, that it's unofficial, not sanctioned, and that those running it aren't mods. Sorry if this wasn't clear enough.

2) We have periodically in the past banned serial scammers who re-reg for violating our one account per person policy, or for spamming, or for other rule violations. This typically happens when the person comes to our attention, but this is absolutely subject to thing #1--feel free to keep us in the loop if there's an evolving situation with someone in B/S/T, but if there is even the shadow of an expectation that having done this in the past obligates us to support stuff going forward, we just won't have a B/S/T thread.

3) We are not going to release the personal information of users to other users, irrespective of what those users may have done wrong. The thing you noticed in the TOS was a minor bit of legalese added many years ago because a writer for a blog wanted to quote some GAF posts (no money changed hands) and apparently if you don't have a "We have a license for your posts" thing in your terms of service that can cause issues. This is why every website has 9,000,000 page terms of services.

Hope this clarifies stuff.
Click to expand...


It clarifies it, certainly.

I do appreciate the idea that you cannot fairly adjudicate such matters.. That's reasonable, and you're by far one of the more reasonable people here.

Is it equally fair that people can call such people shitbag scammers, or is that against the rules?
 
To be quite honest, that thread does way better than I would have ever expected.
Don't get me wrong, I've been ripped off twice, the first time it was my fault for not checking the seller's feedback and the second time the guy just plain out took my money despite the good feedback he had. Lucky for me that I was able to get back my money both times through outside means, so it ended up ok.
But I've probably got almost 40 or 50 transactions now, both as a buyer and a seller and for the most part I have no complaints.

It would be cool if people who have ripped off people more than twice got banned, but maybe that's asking too much of a forum not meant for transactions. Not just because it's time and effort on the moderator's side, but there could be legal things involved. It seems to be either the system we have now or to not have anything at all.

Not to mention that we have people in that thread who look out for others. It kind of polices itself, though not as well as maybe it should be. All we can really do is take it upon ourselves to be on the lookout.
It's a testament to that thread that if only one thing goes wrong there are several pages discussing it. It's THAT rare. That's a good thing.
 
Chairmanchuck said:
Besides thieves there are also bundle "scammers" in that thread. Buy a HB for 1$, wait till the bundle runs out and sell each game
for 5-10$ to people who didnt know about the bundle or missed it...
Click to expand...

So? If it's less than retail, those people still get a better price if they want the game.
 
shintoki said:
If you used paypal, couldn't you dispute the charges? I get its frustrating, but I do believe most people are still covered when it comes down to it.

Also, give the mods a bit of time. I wouldn't want them to rush right away to ban anyone without maybe investigating the issue first. I'm not saying the issue isn't real, but looking over the posts. It does seem to be one particular person who tried to get several people at once, while having a bunch of positive rep prior.
Click to expand...

Depends on how you payed on paypal. If you payed through goods and services then ya, it's not too hard to contest it. It's the people who pay through friends and family who can very likely get screwed over.

Also when it comes to the whole "selling key" thing, most of those weren't even found out till 4+ months after the sale had happened, which at the time was after paypal stopped accepting disputes. There's a reason why selling Windows keys is frowned upon now, because it's really easy to get scammed through one of those.
 
Chairmanchuck said:
Besides thieves there are also bundle "scammers" in that thread. Buy a HB for 1$, wait till the bundle runs out and sell each game
for 5-10$ to people who didnt know about the bundle or missed it...
Click to expand...

This is fine to me. It's a free market, if an item is worth slightly more money than it's lowest ever price to someone, let them pay it. Not everyone keeps up with indie bundles like a hawk.
 
Also, I hope I didn't give the impression that I was taking the "Mods should be watch dogs." stance.


It was more the "Having an account is a privilege." stance.

I don't envy any mod their job in overseeing a forum this large, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Please forgive me if I've offended, again.
 
Edit: ok I misunderstood as it seemed you were implying you had a good time up until recently and then maybe setting happened that changes your mind drastically. I do agree with you that I need to believe that they are risking their reputation and if bad enough their GAF account if they are essentially caught scamming someone. The problem is it's hard to know hwhos being honest. It's why you should always document your whole process when selling/buying from anywhere GAF is no exception unfortunately. I'd say this goes doubly for sellers because they often are taking more risk.
 
I don't think people are reading my post. No one scammed me, but I have read about people being scammed.

Anyway, this has served its purpose.

Please lock it.
 
There was another shitbag in the 2014 Secret Santa thread, where I sent him some nice gifts and he ran away and took them without sending anything to the next member.

He came back after a little while and starting posting regularly again.
 
This is so scummy and ruins it for everyone. "This is why we can't have nice things" so perfectly describes BST scammers. I've never sold or bought anything on neogaf, but I've done so on plenty of other sites. Once trust is shattered, it can basically destroy a BST community. Everything is so much better when people cooperate and trust one another. One of my favorite stories about forum interaction comes from Penny-Arcade where a poster let me use his UK home address essentially as a shipping post so that I could get purchase items from ebay.co.uk that didn't ship to the US. I always appreciated that effort.

Personal rule of thumb is that I only buy from members I've interacted with in a forum proper outside the BST thread. It's unlikely someone would play a long con and integrate into a community over several years just to scam people... although, unluckily, in the situation you describe, that seems exactly like what the poster in question did. Yeesh.

Best of luck to everyone involved.
 
Think about it, a lot of scummy people don't give a shit about posting privileges if they can run away with something tangible and worth some value. It is a risky way to sell something and is built on trust. It sucks people take advantage of others and steal.
 
I think you should get more BST points for successfully selling higher ticket items. I sold a Xbone in great condition, recipient was happy, etc.

But I only get one feedback? I could easily run up feedback selling small things and then run away with money on a big item later (I would never do that, but you get the idea)
 
I've never had an issue in the bst thread. Like with any purchase online it is important to buy from someone with solid feedback and some history with the site wether here or eBay.

Most important if a deal is too good to be true it almost is.
 
Sometimes, people can be jerks. That person was once me. A long time ago, maybe about 10 years or so, I decided I was going to sell my video game collection. I posted my stuff on the forum and a few people contacted me to buy some games. I was sent money, and things got kind of hectic for me monetarily. There is no excuse, but I let my debts go for a long time.

The posters, both of which are very, very long standing posters only hit me up once a piece about where the games were, and so on. I blew them off, all the while intending to send the games when I could afford to do so. Well, days turned into weeks, weeks turned into years and years turned into a decade. I never forgot about who I owed and why and I finally tracked both down (one had changed names several years back, so it took some major detective work), and sent them their money back plus more.

It was totally unacceptable, irresponsible and unjustified. I felt terrible about it, especially since the few times in my life when others have stolen from me still cause me to get upset. I hope those people who have run off with other people's money or property will pay their debts. I believe in the good of people, but It is probably a good idea for there to be some oversight in that thread.
 
I've seen a few people get scammed, and it's really fucked up. However, as a rule of thumb I always make sure the person whom I'm buying from has a good amount of positive feedback -- The more expensive the item, the more feedback they need to have. Hell if I'm going to buy a $300 console or a $700 graphics card from a Junior, and I won't even buy $20 of Steam credit without someone who has been around the forum and plenty of feedback on the selling end.

The people who want to ruin their ability to do business in the thread who've had years of positive feedback DO OCCASIONALLY fuck people over, but it's very rare.
 
AlteredBeast said:
Sometimes, people can be jerks. That person was once me. A long time ago, maybe about 10 years or so, I decided I was going to sell my video game collection. I posted my stuff on the forum and a few people contacted me to buy some games. I was sent money, and things got kind of hectic for me monetarily. There is no excuse, but I let my debts go for a long time.

The posters, both of which are very, very long standing posters only hit me up once a piece about where the games were, and so on. I blew them off, all the while intending to send the games when I could afford to do so. Well, days turned into weeks, weeks turned into years and years turned into a decade. I never forgot about who I owed and why and I finally tracked both down (one had changed names several years back, so it took some major detective work), and sent them their money back plus more.

It was totally unacceptable, irresponsible and unjustified. I felt terrible about it, especially since the few times in my life when others have stolen from me still cause me to get upset. I hope those people who have run off with other people's money or property will pay their debts. I believe in the good of people, but It is probably a good idea for there to be some oversight in that thread.
Click to expand...

heh. yeah i did get a refund from someone here after four years
 
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