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The Frank Luntz Playbook: Republican Talking Points in Canonical Form

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http://www.politicalstrategy.org/archives/001185.php#1185

Here's all the Republican talking points from the 2004 elections, codified for use in 2006's Congressional elections. This playbook, by Frank Luntz, establishes all the talking points Republicans need to parrot in order to have that consistent message -- as patently stupid as they read -- that Americans demand in order to get their vote. This is how they sold some of you -- and your parents, and your neighbors -- on the notion that Bush "says what he means and means what he says," and that Kerry was a mealy-mouthed flipflopper.

Cynical, scary stuff. The use of frames for cultural arguments and appeals is really ingenious -- evil, but ingenious.

It's an interesting read. Funny how the leak of this playbook didn't make ANY of the big media outlets outside of the occasional byline. I guess the media really *is* content to just show up and transcribe whatever comes over the AP newswire or out of Scott McClellan's drooling maw.
 

explodet

Member
NEVER SAY: Government
INSTEAD SAY: Washington

NEVER SAY: Privatization/Private Accounts
INSTEAD SAY: Personalization/Personal Accounts

NEVER SAY: Tax Reform
INSTEAD SAY: Tax Simplification

NEVER SAY: Inheritance/Estate Tax
INSTEAD SAY: The Death Tax

NEVER SAY: Global Economy/Globalization/Capitalism
INSTEAD SAY: Free Market Economy

NEVER SAY: Outsourcing
INSTEAD SAY: Taxation, Regulation, Litigation, Innovation, Education

NEVER SAY: Undocumented Workers
INSTEAD SAY: Illegal Aliens

NEVER SAY: Foreign Trade
INSTEAD SAY: International Trade

NEVER SAY: Drilling for oil
INSTEAD SAY: Exploring for energy

NEVER SAY: Tort Reform
INSTEAD SAY: Lawsuit Abuse Reform

NEVER SAY: Trial Lawyer
INSTEAD SAY: Personal Injury Lawyer

NEVER SAY: Corporate Transparency
INSTEAD SAY: Corporate Accountability

NEVER SAY: School Choice
INSTEAD SAY: Parental Choice/Equal Opportunity in Education

NEVER SAY: Healthcare "Choice”
INSTEAD SAY: "The Right to Choose"
 
-jinx- said:
NEVER SAY: Republican
INSTEAD SAY: Manipulative Fuck
Sure it's manipulative, but it's pretty good stuff.
Just wondering, but is it considered terrorism to vote in people you believe will fundamentally destroy the country?

As defined by the FBI, "the unlawful use of force against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in the furtherance of political or social objectives". This definition includes three elements: (1) Terrorist activities are illegal and involve the use of force. (2) The actions are intended to intimidate or coerce. (3) The actions are committed in support of political or social objectives. (FEMA-SS)
So no, voting is generally not conisered "unlawful".
 
This guy would fit right in with the Republicans.

movie_bg.jpg
 
I remember watching Mary Matalin wearing a green outfit with rather sharp shoulders. I was like holy mackeral she looks like she's ROMULAN.



MatalinWeb.jpg
carolyn%20romulan.jpeg

(OK, the green tint from Romulan starship is very important here)
 

maharg

idspispopd
"Sure, the Democrats have clung to a desperate belief that Bush won because he waged a campaign of fear. The exact opposite was the case. Americans turned to him precisely because they saw him as the antidote to that fear."

........ Uh.......
 
Actually, the discovery of this playbook -- something Democrats have long suspected the existence of -- have led them to create a public playbook on that same site. They're taking contributions and advice for it.
 

tetsuoxb

Member
-jinx- said:
How about the notion that HAVING talking points is a bad thing?

Bad in what way? If you are a member of a group, that works in support of a platform, then an organized way of keeping on message is perfectly acceptable to me.

Word choice, and word meaning are important in everything we say and do. I wouldn't say something to my boss that I knew had a negative connotation in her mind, just as Republicans try to avoid words that have negative connotations in voters minds.

For instance, Washington instead of Government. They mean the same thing in practice (past, of course, the microsemantic level) however, since most people do not live in Washington, it is easier for them to paint the outsider picture when that word is used.

NEVER SAY: Foreign Trade - Foreign connotes not like us.
INSTEAD SAY: International Trade -International has no such connotation.

Im just failing to find what is so insipid about this. It seems like a common rhetorical tactic with regards to semantics.
 

Inumaru

Member
This reminds me a bit of that DNC memo that was going around back in November '04, telling local dems to make up charges of voter intimidation/fraud, even if there was no immediate evidence, if it became clear the election was not headed their way. And verified as true by DNC officials, who said something bright like "Well, we know they're going to do it, don't we?" :lol

Source

(Sorry for the Drudge source, first thing that came up) :D

Despicable stuff from both sides, but we know Democrats and Republicans do this kind of thing all the time behind the scenes. It's just phenomenal when they're stupid enough to put it on paper.
 
It's vile because state constiuencies are often ignored in favor of playing to a larger "party" message, and because most of those word choices are designed to downplay the evils of crony capitalism and the rogue corporate state that sponsors them. Hell, the author even acknowledges that Iraq can easily ber painted as a clusterfuck -- and that is a very bad thing to try and hide behind a rhetorical smokescreen.

The irony, of course, is that GWB "won" because he seemed like an outsider -- NOT a politician, but a man of conviction. On the other hand, the underprepared Kerry was portrayed as a wishy-washy flipflopper. Which one was the *real* political tool, given this playbook?

Also, the abuse of 9/11 for political capital is utterly codified there. That's just wrong.
 

AntoneM

Member
The US is a strange political animal, on one hand, the party is the most important part of current politics, however, it's to an individual polititians favor to try and get the public to vote for him and not necessarily the party, in this way the politician has more control on the outcome of the election. It's because of this, that talking points are so effective, they paint a broad party image while at the same time allowing the politian to appear to be an individual. Theoretically he can say what he wants as long as he uses the party terminology and such. Does that mean I support talking points? No, in fact I despise them. I say can a turd a turd, not a singular example of excrement.
 

Dilbert

Member
tetsuoxb said:
Bad in what way? If you are a member of a group, that works in support of a platform, then an organized way of keeping on message is perfectly acceptable to me.
The problem with talking points is that they contribute to what I like to call the "bumper stickerization of America." Talking points appear to neatly condense complex issues down to manageable ideas, but in actuality only serve to distort them since they are too small to contain any but a single point of view, conveniently chosen to support the speaker's position. Meanwhile, people who are either too stupid or too lazy to examine what's being said latch onto whatever sounds good and repeat it ad infinitum. I mean, what the fuck does "support our troops" MEAN, anyway? It's on car after car, and I have no idea what course of action that is supposed to suggest.

Political discussion ought to be rational -- there are issues which need to be addressed, and by understanding the facts and reasoning through to one or more possible solutions which can be discussed, you can hope to reach a solution. When someone is blatantly appealing to emotion by misrepresenting or distorting facts, though, it's clear that they are up to something. Politicians ought to have a responsibility to clearly lay out the facts around an issue, state their positions, and encourage discussion. The notion that the electorate is some group of animals to be herded with clever phrases into supporting or opposing a particular side of an argument is frankly offensive.
 

tetsuoxb

Member
Drinky Crow said:
It's vile because state constiuencies are often ignored in favor of playing to a larger "party" message, and because most of those word choices are designed to downplay the evils of crony capitalism and the rogue corporate state that sponsors them. Hell, the author even acknowledges that Iraq can easily ber painted as a clusterfuck -- and that is a very bad thing to try and hide behind a rhetorical smokescreen.

The irony, of course, is that GWB "won" because he seemed like an outsider -- NOT a politician, but a man of conviction. On the other hand, the underprepared Kerry was portrayed as a wishy-washy flipflopper. Which one was the *real* political tool, given this playbook?

Also, the abuse of 9/11 for political capital is utterly codified there. That's just wrong.

That and the political tools Kerry employed with complete morons. Then he'd switch them for a second group of complete morons. The Newsweek piece (the obscenely long one) that they published after the election was very revealing in regards to the democrats political machine and how ass backwards it is.

In case you haven't guessed, I am a dyed in the wool, love it til I die and will haunt those who hate it as a ghost, capitalist. When a company tries a hostile takeover (I am currently enthralled by the livedoor vs. fuji tv battle in Japan) I love it, as I love it when outsourcing happens as it drives down prices and encourages trade. So you will have to excuse me when I say that a national party, giving their candidates for federal government national talking points does not in the least bit smack of "crony capitalism" or "a rogue corporate state".

Not to thread jack, but ultimately I cannot feel any love for opponents of capitalism/corporate America. When corporate America profits, it goes to the shareholders, who could be other corporations, or could private investors... however, ultimately the wealth lands in the hands of private individuals. If enough of it doesn't land in your hands, capitalism provides the means to change that. Id have to agree with Bill Gates and say that Chinese capitalism is awesome, simply because it removes many of the regulatory and judicial roadblocks and BS. It seems to me that modern American resentment of capitalism/globalization is tantamount to simple and plain jealousy. A clear case of the have's and the have nots. I don't buy it, and it isnt worth arguing with me, because you will never change my mind and I most likely will never change yours.

BTW: You can take the quotes off "won" or just speak the truth and say Kerry lost. Bush was insanely beatable, and your boy couldn't pull it off.

While we are on this topic, exactly why do democrats/progressives seem to be so bitter/synical/borderline hateful about all this stuff? You guys jump all over the littlest things (especially hammy and that whole communist star article) and whine in thread after thread. Id love to counter-program and post threads of democratic/progressive lunacy, but I lack the hate/motiviation to troll the internet looking for things that make the other side look silly.

I really wish that the "left" would stick to issues that they have a clear moral and ethical advantage on (gay marriage/equal protection, copyleft [with the exception of california and their entertainment money hats], etc.) and get off bashing republicans at every corner. There are bits of the democratic agenda that I would love to see passed, but it seems they are interested in doing nothing but fostering ill will.
 

kablooey

Member
tetsuoxb said:
That and the political tools Kerry employed with complete morons. Then he'd switch them for a second group of complete morons. The Newsweek piece (the obscenely long one) that they published after the election was very revealing in regards to the democrats political machine and how ass backwards it is.

In case you haven't guessed, I am a dyed in the wool, love it til I die and will haunt those who hate it as a ghost, capitalist. When a company tries a hostile takeover (I am currently enthralled by the livedoor vs. fuji tv battle in Japan) I love it, as I love it when outsourcing happens as it drives down prices and encourages trade. So you will have to excuse me when I say that a national party, giving their candidates for federal government national talking points does not in the least bit smack of "crony capitalism" or "a rogue corporate state".

Not to thread jack, but ultimately I cannot feel any love for opponents of capitalism/corporate America. When corporate America profits, it goes to the shareholders, who could be other corporations, or could private investors... however, ultimately the wealth lands in the hands of private individuals. If enough of it doesn't land in your hands, capitalism provides the means to change that. Id have to agree with Bill Gates and say that Chinese capitalism is awesome, simply because it removes many of the regulatory and judicial roadblocks and BS. It seems to me that modern American resentment of capitalism/globalization is tantamount to simple and plain jealousy. A clear case of the have's and the have nots. I don't buy it, and it isnt worth arguing with me, because you will never change my mind and I most likely will never change yours.

BTW: You can take the quotes off "won" or just speak the truth and say Kerry lost. Bush was insanely beatable, and your boy couldn't pull it off.

While we are on this topic, exactly why do democrats/progressives seem to be so bitter/synical/borderline hateful about all this stuff? You guys jump all over the littlest things (especially hammy and that whole communist star article) and whine in thread after thread. Id love to counter-program and post threads of democratic/progressive lunacy, but I lack the hate/motiviation to troll the internet looking for things that make the other side look silly.

I really wish that the "left" would stick to issues that they have a clear moral and ethical advantage on (gay marriage/equal protection, copyleft [with the exception of california and their entertainment money hats], etc.) and get off bashing republicans at every corner. There are bits of the democratic agenda that I would love to see passed, but it seems they are interested in doing nothing but fostering ill will.

Wow. You're completely batshit insane. :)

Same goes for this playbook. I don't have the energy to articulate myself at this hour, so I'll just give jinx an IAWTP.
 
So you will have to excuse me when I say that a national party, giving their candidates for federal government national talking points does not in the least bit smack of "crony capitalism" or "a rogue corporate state".

Seriously, WTF?

The POINT is that many of the "talking points" in their reductivist form EXCUSE crony capitalism and rogue corporate behaviors, both of which are perversions of Adam Smith-style cpaitalism. Crony capitalism abuses the system to allow politicians to be bought and to feed the regulatory machine so that large, wealthy businesses can escape market forces as well as responsible oversight. Rogue corporate behaviors include a complete disregard for the environment as well as contempt for international law and proper accounting principles -- the latter two of which hurt your precious private shareholders, although they make a small elite very wealthy. The current anti-bankruptcy bill currently in Congress is a great example of crony capitalism -- credit card companies aren't even remotely at risk under the current bankruptcy system. They've just greased the pockets of Congress to make sure that they can make a little more still, at the expense of the individual. How is that encouraging competition?

Seems like you just wanted to get that little wank about capitalism out of your system, eh?

It seems to me that modern American resentment of capitalism/globalization is tantamount to simple and plain jealousy.

Does it REALLY escape you that some folks just MIGHT not have drank the Kool-Aid supplied by the American Cult of Entrepreneurship, and that we MIGHT have sympathy for the plights of the less fortunate, as well as care deeplpy about the environment, public health, and civic responsibility? That there ARE bigger things than money?

Funny how the most ardent defenders of "capitalism" know very little about what capitalism truly entails and how they are often have-nots with grand, egomaniacal visions of future wealth. Most of the haves I know here in the city are very much philanthropic and Democratic -- how do you explain them?
 

Paladin69

Member
both parties suck. i'm tired of following the democrats, they won't take off the pink tu-tu's.

And the republican party is hardly fiscally responsible. spending money like nobody's business.

I'd love to see a libertarian candidate win, but that'll be when hell freezes over.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
tetsuoxb said:
That and the political tools Kerry employed with complete morons. Then he'd switch them for a second group of complete morons. The Newsweek piece (the obscenely long one) that they published after the election was very revealing in regards to the democrats political machine and how ass backwards it is.

In case you haven't guessed, I am a dyed in the wool, love it til I die and will haunt those who hate it as a ghost, capitalist. When a company tries a hostile takeover (I am currently enthralled by the livedoor vs. fuji tv battle in Japan) I love it, as I love it when outsourcing happens as it drives down prices and encourages trade. So you will have to excuse me when I say that a national party, giving their candidates for federal government national talking points does not in the least bit smack of "crony capitalism" or "a rogue corporate state".

Not to thread jack, but ultimately I cannot feel any love for opponents of capitalism/corporate America. When corporate America profits, it goes to the shareholders, who could be other corporations, or could private investors... however, ultimately the wealth lands in the hands of private individuals. If enough of it doesn't land in your hands, capitalism provides the means to change that. Id have to agree with Bill Gates and say that Chinese capitalism is awesome, simply because it removes many of the regulatory and judicial roadblocks and BS. It seems to me that modern American resentment of capitalism/globalization is tantamount to simple and plain jealousy. A clear case of the have's and the have nots. I don't buy it, and it isnt worth arguing with me, because you will never change my mind and I most likely will never change yours.

BTW: You can take the quotes off "won" or just speak the truth and say Kerry lost. Bush was insanely beatable, and your boy couldn't pull it off.

While we are on this topic, exactly why do democrats/progressives seem to be so bitter/synical/borderline hateful about all this stuff? You guys jump all over the littlest things (especially hammy and that whole communist star article) and whine in thread after thread. Id love to counter-program and post threads of democratic/progressive lunacy, but I lack the hate/motiviation to troll the internet looking for things that make the other side look silly.

I really wish that the "left" would stick to issues that they have a clear moral and ethical advantage on (gay marriage/equal protection, copyleft [with the exception of california and their entertainment money hats], etc.) and get off bashing republicans at every corner. There are bits of the democratic agenda that I would love to see passed, but it seems they are interested in doing nothing but fostering ill will.

Let me guess, you're a freshman (sophomore?) business major?
 

Matlock

Banned
As a guy who's deeply interested in psychology and has a marketing degree on the side* with a slight interest in politics...well, this is really fascinating.

Evil, in a way, I admit.

But damn if I can't admire the fact they researched and refined information and theories that I've spent years studying until they sang.




*forthcoming, two months away, baby!
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Let's look at the context:

* Bush holds extremely few press conferences.

* Bush holds publicity events designed to look like town hall meetings, where everyone has been screened for support.

* The White House credentialed a non-reporter from a fake news organization under a false name so he could ask softball questions.

* The White House Office of Drug Control Policy, and the HHS both have produced advertisements deliberately presented so people would think they were newscasts.

* Columnists Armstrong Williams, Maggie Gallagher, and Michael McManus all received payments from the government to promote Bush administration programs. None of the payments were publically disclosed.

Every politician will try to use the best possible language to describe their ideas and policies. They will all be selective in the facts they choose to use. I do not expect George Bush to be Diogenes. However, this administration, and the Republican party machinery, have gone far beyond the expected gamesmanship.

A very large part of the US population believes that WMD were found in Iraq, and that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the planning of the 9/11 attacks. Who benefits from these misconceptions? And who has the power to largely dispel them, but chooses not to?

The GOP purposefully uses the rote recital of vague phrases to sell programs it does not believe would gain public support if debated on the facts. While I understand the importance of framing, talking points are deliberately used as a substitute for real, informed discourse.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"Crony capitalism abuses the system to allow politicians to be bought and to feed the regulatory machine so that large, wealthy businesses can escape market forces as well as responsible oversight."

oh, but didn't you know? They introduced new legislation called SOX!!!
it's the ultimate corporate governance system!!

What it does is : it makes it impossible to change even simple variables in an IT TEST environment in any large company!

so if i want to , say , change a default B.Point rate to do some testing for a client - i have to fill out 5 online forms before i can change the value.... in test! NOT PRODUCTION (i have to fill out more forms for that!) ... in TEST.

I can see how that's going to stop an Enron like coverup !

It's so awesome! Millions of dollars of work, and it's STILL not going to do what it sets out to do...

a total waste of my f*cking time.

Oh, and if i have a large scale prod problem? and i have to amend 10,000 records? Oh, well, that's 10,000 individual X page reports i have to file BEFORE i can fix them! THAT'S AWESOME! especially if i have 2 hours to do it before the client deadline!

Apologies - i fell vented now.
 

tetsuoxb

Member
Drinky Crow said:
Seriously, WTF?

The POINT is that many of the "talking points" in their reductivist form EXCUSE crony capitalism and rogue corporate behaviors, both of which are perversions of Adam Smith-style cpaitalism. Crony capitalism abuses the system to allow politicians to be bought and to feed the regulatory machine so that large, wealthy businesses can escape market forces as well as responsible oversight. Rogue corporate behaviors include a complete disregard for the environment as well as contempt for international law and proper accounting principles -- the latter two of which hurt your precious private shareholders, although they make a small elite very wealthy. The current anti-bankruptcy bill currently in Congress is a great example of crony capitalism -- credit card companies aren't even remotely at risk under the current bankruptcy system. They've just greased the pockets of Congress to make sure that they can make a little more still, at the expense of the individual. How is that encouraging competition?

Seems like you just wanted to get that little wank about capitalism out of your system, eh?

So basically you are saying that we are mired in a late 19th century style guilded age? The graft is fully in play, and Republicans are behind it all? And yes, that wank about capitalism made me feel alot better, especially since pretty much everyone here has benefitted greatly from capitalism but loves to bash it anyways.


Does it REALLY escape you that some folks just MIGHT not have drank the Kool-Aid supplied by the American Cult of Entrepreneurship, and that we MIGHT have sympathy for the plights of the less fortunate, as well as care deeplpy about the environment, public health, and civic responsibility? That there ARE bigger things than money?

Funny how the most ardent defenders of "capitalism" know very little about what capitalism truly entails and how they are often have-nots with grand, egomaniacal visions of future wealth. Most of the haves I know here in the city are very much philanthropic and Democratic -- how do you explain them?

Oh I get what happens at the other end of the spectrum. It is called poverty, and there is no way around it. I am not saying greed is good, but in today's time it seems that greed has been equated with ambition, thus making ambition bad like greed. Philanthropy is a wonderful thing, as are rich philanthropic democrats. Do me a favor though and go ask them what they really think about capitalism. Also, try to make sure they are new money, and not old money. I am not trying to say capitalism is a flawless system.... but I much perfer the opportunity of capitalism to forced governmental redistribution of wealth. Meaning to say, that fiscally, I am a social protectionist. I don't believe it should be the job of government to improve your station in life, I think it is your job. I believe that government should protect your current station in life, while giving you opportunity to improve it.

You seem mired into thinking that being capitalist means not caring about "less fortunate, as well as care deeplpy about the environment, public health, and civic responsibility." I think it is wonderful to care about these things, but I feel it should not be the realm of government to care for them for you, and thus governmental intervention should be limited. For instance, in the vain of social protectionism, I support private health care with a cheap public alternative. Namely if you want a dental benefit, go private... if you are just above the poverty line and need a cheaper less comprehensive plan, go for government. I support protection of the environment, with the knowledge that too much protection can cause just as much harm as too little. I care that the less fortunate be provided the tools to create wealth and increase their lot, via things like increasing the pay of inner city teachers to attract a higher caliber. I do not believe in Hugo Chavez style redistribution of wealth. So think what you want about me....

Let me guess, you're a freshman (sophomore?) business major?

B.A. East Asian Languages and Literatures, University of Florida 2003. Cum Laude.

Yep. A liberal arts major! Also have half a degree in C.S. finished, but who knows if I will ever go back.

You can count on the inevitable Randroid response conflating capitalism with meritocracy in 3...

Instead, I'd like you to explain coherently how American style capitalism is _NOT_ a meritocracy.

While I understand the importance of framing, talking points are deliberately used by both parties as a substitute for real, informed discourse.

fixed.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"I'd like you to explain coherently how American style capitalism is _NOT_ a meritocracy."

.... well, on a personal level, it's not working out that way for me.

Across our industry it's the same message

Work harder, longer, faster, better, under more constraints and get paid less.
EXCEPT if you are the top guys, who get $XX million bonuses.

The grunts get shafted, the top guys get paid. Now i'm not saying that that's a flawless arguement, i'm simplifying it.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
DCharlie said:
oh, but didn't you know? They introduced new legislation called SOX!!!
it's the ultimate corporate governance system!!

What it does is : it makes it impossible to change even simple variables in an IT TEST environment in any large company!

so if i want to , say , change a default B.Point rate to do some testing for a client - i have to fill out 5 online forms before i can change the value.... in test! NOT PRODUCTION (i have to fill out more forms for that!) ... in TEST.

I can see how that's going to stop an Enron like coverup !

It's so awesome! Millions of dollars of work, and it's STILL not going to do what it sets out to do...

a total waste of my f*cking time.

Oh, and if i have a large scale prod problem? and i have to amend 10,000 records? Oh, well, that's 10,000 individual X page reports i have to file BEFORE i can fix them! THAT'S AWESOME! especially if i have 2 hours to do it before the client deadline!

Apologies - i fell vented now.

Seriously? We're looking at SOX implementation late this year/early next, but it if it's that fucked up I don't know if I want to continue working with computers..
 

tetsuoxb

Member
DCharlie said:
.... well, on a personal level, it's not working out that way for me.

Across our industry it's the same message

Work harder, longer, faster, better, under more constraints and get paid less.
EXCEPT if you are the top guys, who get $XX million bonuses.

The grunts get shafted, the top guys get paid. Now i'm not saying that that's a flawless arguement, i'm simplifying it.

How did the top guys become the top guys?
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"Seriously? We're looking at SOX implementation late this year/early next, but it if it's that fucked up I don't know if I want to continue working with computers.."

bwahahahaha... oh , WELCOME TO HELL!

there's no escaping it!

setting up controls in Test... it doesn't get more retarded than that :(
 

fart

Savant
the fact that someone could be presented with facts such as the original link as well as the relatively perceptive posts in this thread and still be so thoroughly convinced of the truth of the lies exposed is proof that nothing is ever going to change and i should just kill myself right now.

so lonely :(
 

8bit

Knows the Score
DCharlie said:
bwahahahaha... oh , WELCOME TO HELL!

there's no escaping it!

setting up controls in Test... it doesn't get more retarded than that :(

Well bollocks to that. I preferred it when I was the IT department. I'm going to take up something like painting or selling bits of wood on ebay.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"How did the top guys become the top guys?"

a combination of factors ....

good education, by knowing the right people, by making the right connections, by scratching the right backs , by making the right deals, leaning the right way politically etc etc...

it's not just a case of meritocracy alone i'm afraid.

It's unfortunately a big lie in the corporate world - a fact you'll be rudely awakened to when you enter it.

In fact, in a lot of cases, if you are TOO good, you can find yourself made redundant as nervous management staff get the feeling they might be overtaken... (this happens very often)

Infact, our top boss decided to show his commitment to meritocracy by declaring all the staff ineligable for profit sharing from this year whilst giving himself a big fat bonus, effectively enacting a stealth pay cut of around 8% on everyone.

Meritocracy in action! Work harder, work longer, have less job security, increase shareholder return, increase profit at the firm (DIRECTLY in a lot of peoples cases) , be commited and one day who knows? You might get to keep your job! But it's okay, corporate america will make sure the people at the top get the rewards, and quite right too!
 
How did the top guys become the top guys?

Obviously, our little Randroid friend has never worked at a major corporation. Most of the top dogs did NOT get their CEO gig through the competition of ideas, but through being born to such a station that they have access to capital to fund ventures and to soften the inevitable failures. Those that weren't born to wealth or made connections to wealth in college rely on good old-fashioned dirty dealing and reckless opportunism, with their failures being inflicted on family and friends. A select few get promoted to the top for hard work and honest talent, but they're the exception, not the rule. There are no more garage inventors; just crooked real-estate speculators and naive investors. In the latter two cases, existing capital is still required to participate.

Dynasticism is alive and well in America.
 
But but but see here, DCharlie, working hard and doing a top-notch job isn't MERITORIOUS enough -- or you'd be rich! D'ya see how this works? A REAL capitalist doesn't complain; he just gets rich -- by BELIEVING in the the Holy Trinity of Adam Smith, John Keynes, and Ayn Rand! (Alan Greenspan's in there somewhere, too.) Oh, and he also gets rich by being so smart and so talented that the world just rolls over and begs for the chance to give him money.

If you aren't rich, you didn't believe in the power of a free market enough. Try again!
 
So basically you are saying that we are mired in a late 19th century style guilded age?

We aren't quite there yet in toto . Things like antirust law, hardfought labor protections, and the New Deal and Great Society retain a baseline level of social and economic justice in America. That being said, the income gap now continues to accelerate and the amount of persuasion monied interests have in all levels of government do, to some degree, reflect the state of the nation in the late 19th centure.

The graft is fully in play, and Republicans are behind it all?

Current Republican policies and proposed legislation promote inequality of economic opportunity, where the richer are given more wealth opportunity and the poor are given fewer options to elevate their station in society. There is no semblance of economic justice in Luntz' playbook.

And yes, that wank about capitalism made me feel alot better, especially since pretty much everyone here has benefitted greatly from capitalism but loves to bash it anyways.

Bashing something that you've personally benefitted from is fine and isn't hypocrisy at all. I've benefitted greatly from capitialism, depsite my near-socialist leftist beliefs. I will continue to do so provided that I personally do not contribute to the continued social and economic injustices that small group of people in power continue to push on the rest of America. That doesn't mean I won't rail against the economic injustice of our system of capitalism (which has serious flaws) whenever I get the chance. We can do better than we are doing now.

It is called poverty, and there is no way around it.

I call BS. In a country with as much wealth and resources as we have, there is zero excuse for our levels of poverty, or poverty at all. That's a moral imperative of a society that can afford to do it, and ours can, and should. That doesn't necessarliy mean that government should cut checks to people for sitting on their butt and not doing anything-that is irresponsible, but it does mean:

*) Ensuring that an American that works a full week's work can make enough money to support at least him or herself above poverty conditions. This isn't happening right now, and as a result our GOVERNMENTS (federal, state, and local) and charities are having to fill in for the employer's shortchanging by providing social services. That's crony capitalism.

Republicans have lined up time and time again to shoot down any attempt to force companies to pay a wage that people can actually live on.

*) Ensuring that people who live past an age where they can no longer support themselves through working have income to live on.

We have this insurance-it's called Social Security. It has been under relentless assualt by the Republican party for the past 60 years, and it is in more danger now than ever before. Republicans refuse to take the simple steps to ensure its solvency, instead choosing to find ways to creatively phase-out the assuredness and stability of the program.

*) Ensuring that young people that want an education can have access to it, even if they cannot afford it. The way out of poverty is through education, and state-run universities are woefully underfunded while grants to lower-income students are vanishing at an astonishing rate. The Republicans seem to prefer the notion that people who want to go to college but can't afford it should join the military instead. Enlistment into a volunteer army shouldn't be the only way out of poverty.

*) Keeping people healthy so they can work is important. Our biggest crisis in this country is that of health care, and Republicans have done aboslutely nothing substantive to counter that crisis, or even address the real problems of it. Nothing throws people into poverty and bankruptcy in this country like getting ill or being in an accident because of the massive cost of health care, even with insurance, which, unless you have a job that provides it (see first bullet) is out of reach to most families.

There are some social problems in our society that need to be worked on to fight poverty too. No one is saying that there isn't a place for strong moral and civic leadership in both rural and urban areas to help foster a work ethic and provide examples of how to succeed and overcome adversity. My point is that the government should ensure that there are not glass ceilings in place (there currently are) that, if regulated, could be mitigated or eliminated entirely.

Back from that tangent:

I am not saying greed is good, but in today's time it seems that greed has been equated with ambition, thus making ambition bad like greed.

I don't see this. I only hear this from people looking to to the same kind of Luntz Transform(tm) where you make something that is nasty (unrestrained, unregulated capitalistic greed) into something that sounds better (honest ambition).

I believe that government should protect your current station in life, while giving you opportunity to improve it.

I think that our current government protects you well if you are wealthy. Just look at the Republican bankruptcy bill that just shot through the Senate, complete with plenty of ways for the rich to get around the rules. Look at the Bush tax cuts, which disproporitionately aid the wealthy. If you're at the lower end of the economic scale, the current govenrment and its refusal to address important economic justice issues does actively chooses to obstruct raising your station in life.

Going back to the point of blaming Republicans-they are culpable for their inaction on many of the issues that prevent economic justice in America. They often work actively against economic justice. Some Democrats do too at times, unfortunately, but it's never the crushing, unified majority of hatred and disdain for the poor that Republicans show with uncanny reliability.
 
If you aren't rich, you didn't believe in the power of a free market enough. Try again!

What's interesting is that if you compared the sincerity of the faith between the following people:

Grover Norquist (faith in unrestrianed, unregulated capitalism)
Jerry Falwell (faith in Jesus)
Richard Perle (faith in neoconservative ideology)
Abu Musab al-Zarquai (assuning he exists, he has faith in his mission and to Allah)

It's the same damn thing. Am I the only one that doesn't see the difference between free market fundamentalists, televangelists, proponents of pre-emptive war, and radical terrorists? They all believe in such wacked-out ideologies so fervently, there's no end to the harm they will cause their society and other people to see it through.
 
Frag, Luntz calls that "having a consistent message". Why do you hate America, Jesus, and the deservedly rich so much?

(great post, BTW.)
 
Fragamemnon is a threat to our national security. Send him to Egypt... we're giving them a shitload in foreign aid for a reason.

(nice post, btw)
 
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Good ol' Frank Luntz.

Let's talk a bit about Frank Luntz, the ethically and follically challenged pollster who has made a living by giving the GOP's poison pills a sweet candy shell.

*) Reprimanded by the American Association for Public Opinion Research (the pollster trade group) for misrepresenting (that's Luntz for LYING) to the media about how many Americans actually liked the Contract for American in 1994.
*) Got booted from doing focus group work for MSNBC for the 2004 presidental post-debate analysis because of his ties to the GOP and questions about his impariality.
*) Said in 2004 he hasn't worked for the GOP since 2001, but has been reguarly working for the House GOP caucus and various GOP-affiliated organizations.

But the only thing you really need to know about Frank is that his words and the messages he creates are as fake as his hair.

Drinky: Only at the federal level, where they can get away with cutting social services all over the place while still having the money to protect their jobs. Supply-side advocates in the GOP simply do not exist in meaningful amounts in state legislatures and executive branches due to the state government's mandate to provide basic social services to people.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Instead, I'd like you to explain coherently how American style capitalism is _NOT_ a meritocracy.
Paris Hilton and George Bush.

While I understand the importance of framing, talking points are deliberately used by both parties as a substitute for real, informed discourse.
Show me even one issue in which the Democratic party fosters and relies on public ignorance on the level of the Iraq invasion.
 
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