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The People vs. Tecmo

C

CO_Andy

Member
In honest opinion, the lawsuit that has sparked against some hackers of DoA seems to me a crushing blow to the modding community (this iz a class-action lawsuit i'm assuming). If we are allowed to modify our PC games, then i don't see why we aren't allowed to bring our creative freedom onto console games as well.
"This complaint is absurd. The law allows for fair use of other people's copyrighted works without any permission needed, and one of the key things that you're allowed to do is make copies in order to reverse engineer and understand how they work. If they'd offered a competing video game with Tecmo's code in it, it's a legal issue. But here, they have simply offered a way for legitimate game owners to modify how the game looks on their screen. Its like a home customization kit. It's not competing in any way with Tecmo's product. In fact, you have to own Tecmo's product to use this stuff."(Jason Schultz, quoted from SPOnG)
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The defendent iz currently asking for donations that will go toward his attourney's fees. If you'd like to show your support, then you can go here to donate: http://www.ninjahacker.net/

Also, you can help the guys out by signing a petition located here: http://www.petitiononline.com/tecmomod/petition.html
 
it's spelled "is"



but seriously,
I'm on the side of "the people"
If they were selling the code, or selling the game, it could be another issue..
but its certainly a legal grey area, i'll be curious to see where it goes.
 
I agree, it's bullshit. It has to be just a PR stunt. Even Itagaki must surely agree it's ridiculous. Of course if we were to ask him he'd probably give the company line of protecting IP blah blah.
 
Can Tecmo sue if you make gameplay videos? I think it says it in that long warning message upon bootup...unauthorized images or videos or some shit
 
1) HE (Itagaki) isnt suing anyone. HE doesnt even sit on the board of Tecmo if I recall correctly.

2) You DO NOT have the right to freely DISTRIBUTE/PERFORM/DISPLAY modifications to any game that you create that can potentially DAMAGE ANOTHER COMPANY/PERSON'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. The exceptions to this are parody, satire, and newsworthiness.
The fact they made a mod is not what triggered the avalachance of legal points (The DMCA stuff, etc.), the fact that they made a mod including nude skins, which damages TECMO's IP is what caused this. It doesn't matter if it was free, it doesn't matter if there is other examples of established doujin works, etc. All those works mean is that TECMO is either not aware, has chosen not to protect their trademark/IP in that instance. Now, if TECMO did not EVER protect their IP for a long amount of time, then they can be considered in default of their trademark, but neither this kind of duration, nor a lack of legal action (suing doujin creators in japan) is evident here.

This isn't a case of the PEOPLE vs. TECMO. It is a case of some kids who distributed something potentially damaging to a companies most important and lucrative IP. Your copy of photoshop does not give you the right to make a nude version of mickey mouse and put it on your webpage. It only gives you the right to make a nude version of mickey mouse for your own amusement. The minute you exhibit this work you are breaking the law. These kids broke the law by exhibiting their work. The modification (while technically illegal because of the DMCA) was not what landed them in hot water. You are foolish to not understand this.

Furthermore, Spong quoting someone from the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) is completely irrelevant. While EFF is one of the charities/groups I hold dearest to my heart, they are very very very copyleft. You can find 100000000 times as many lawyers who would tell you that TECMO is going to skin these guys alive on at least 2 or 3 of their points, since prior arts (other doujin stuff like quake models (which were also sued - see XMen Total Conversion)) isn't a reasonable defense in this one.
 
the fact that they made a mod including nude skins, which damages TECMO's IP is what caused this
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yet the actual complaint only mentions nude skins once in the 90 point document

they are claiming a whole lot more, including the creation of tools to open file formats they dont even own (afs anyone?) in the suit

The modification (while technically illegal because of the DMCA) was not what landed them in hot water
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how can this be a DMCA issue when nothing they to tecmo's game breaks copy protection?

if you have a modded bios in your xbox, some will argue it breaks DMCA, but that's microsoft's issue...
 
Wario64 said:
Can Tecmo sue if you make gameplay videos? I think it says it in that long warning message upon bootup...unauthorized images or videos or some shit
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that's what it says.. is it legal? don't think so... nowadays, who knows... at least, well, i hope not, or else they may sue me and other people at doacentral.com!!!
 
Sho Nuff said:
I like how he's suing THE ACTUAL MEMBERS OF THE MESSAGE BOARD.
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well, the ones that posted skins... good thing i'm not a skinmaker i guess... but if he desides to sue for screenshots, i'm d00med...

doa3-01.jpg


doa3-02.jpg
 
They're lucky that companies like Sega, Square, Sony Pictures and others aren't going apeshit for misuse of Intellectual property. Then again, this is NOT a big deal at all. I thought at most they could only order a cease and desist order before going to trial.
 
Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the complaint by Tecmo? This is really interesting to me and I'd like to read it if it is publicly available somewhere.
 
Wow, so if I draw a picture of a nude woman on a car in Forza and then post the image on the internet I could be sued for misuses of intelectual property?
 
I *think* it works like this -> If I were to edit Ms Pac Man and make the sprite blue, and never share the method and results to the public, I'm protected under private rights law or something. If I were to set up www.msbluepacman.com and show everyone the results and infer that I have knowledge of how to do it, Namco could sue me.
 
The Abominable Snowman said:
Did you edit the protected coding of the game and post it on the web?
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what protected coding?

it's standard dx textures you edit with a standard photoshop plugin that existed long before the game was released...
 
tetsuoxb said:
Now, if TECMO did not EVER protect their IP for a long amount of time, then they can be considered in default of their trademark
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Yea, what he said! Because we all know that [insert any game company that allows mods] has lost their IP thanks to [insert any mod here] and now they're broke and can't use their IP or trademark anymore!

I'm SO stupid! I shouldn't have installed those Pornographic Wall-texture and Barney mods into Doom years ago because now we'll never get a Doom 3!

Anyway, The Carmack and Sweeney Fund needs your help! Help by donating a dollar today!
 
The Faceless Master said:
what protected coding?

it's standard dx textures you edit with a standard photoshop plugin that existed long before the game was released...
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Yes. However, you have to patch the game for it to work (circumventing the digital signature on their software), on a modded xbox (see: Illegal under the DMCA) that will run unsigned code.

The mention of nude skins once is irrelevant. That is what brought the hammer down. Once is enough. Once the hammer was brought down, everything they did to break the law (which is quite lengthy as you say) was pretty much fair game.

Just face the facts... NinjaHackers got busted doing something that was at best "gray market" and at worst a knowing circumvention of copyright law and IP law. The fact that they are completely unapologetic on the matter, running around teamxbox forums like douchebags, makes me wish them the best when they get their balls nailed to the wall.

America really needs to escape this "just because you can do it and not get caught it is right" culture that is prevelant in copyright matters. If they wanted extra skins, they should have been smart and legal and kept them to themselves.
 
junkster said:
Yea, what he said! Because we all know that [insert any game company that allows mods] has lost their IP thanks to [insert any mod here] and now they're broke and can't use their IP or trademark anymore!

I'm SO stupid! I shouldn't have installed those Pornographic Wall-texture and Barney mods into Doom years ago because now we'll never get a Doom 3!

Anyway, The Carmack and Sweeney Fund needs your help! Help by donating a dollar today!
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Ill ignore the lame attempt at sarcasm because obviously you have some serious delusions about copyright law.

Don't be stupid. id Software actively encourages user created content. They release tools and provide source code and support for mod teams. It is in their interests because it elongates the lifespan of a game. They have established a legal framework as to what is and is not acceptable, and protect their IP as such. Those "Barney Mods" were of course illegal. Using a copyrighted character in your work is not permissable under copyright law. Whether or not those who own the Barney IP chose to defend their mark in that instance is up to them. My bet would be that they figured your average Barney watcher is not going to be playing Doom, so it wasn't worth the money to litigate.

Tecmo does no such encouragment of end-user created content. Nor is the target user for DOA substantially different than one who would be using the patch in question. The patch can harm their IP, and the costs of taking these clowns to court was worth it for them.

Again... just because it can be done, and is being done, does not make it legal.
 
They should push the parody point.

Obviously, the nude skins are there to parody the obvious intent of the games design (i.e. selling through sex). Shit, if you played DOAVBX this would become immediately obvious.

There's nothing really to defame in the first place.

OTOH, if it were a game like Mario, and people made nude patches for princess Peach and spread it wide, there would be a much more obvious defamation occuring.
 
Ill ignore the lame attempt at sarcasm because obviously you have some serious delusions about copyright law.
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You take yourself way too seriously and are insulting to boot, but it'd be nice if you didn't stoop to that level Mr. Attorney man, kthx.

I know enough about law to be able to interpret what's legal and what isn't. I also know companies like to make up their own "laws", and that some are questionable and for a court to decide. And by the way, I do appreciate that you're trying to educate us about the law.

However, we already know its within their legal right to sue. I don't think anybody ever contested that with you.

I'm merely asking this: Why sue? What harm is being done? Is it really hurting their IP? Did naked wall textures hurt Doom? Did Barney Doom or MUGEN (fighter game simulator) really hurt id or Capcom or SNK? Did a news report show up about the boobs in Doom and wreak havoc upon their IP or id in general? No. If Tecmo let this continue, the game would eventually either prosper or die anyway, just like every other modded game on the planet.

So does sueing help anything?
What is it really accomplishing?
Is it really protecting their IP?
Is their IP in any sort of danger over mods?

No.
Nothing.
No.
No.

These guys are tinkering and having a bit of fun. And guess what? If they like what they're doing now, they might become game artists in the future. Scroll up and take a look at that Zelda costume for the DOA girl and tell me that doesn't look great! Someone like Itagaki claims to want these guys to prosper, then goes and says mods are bad? I don't bite, that's just stupid.

The past is a good indicator of the future and mods have never hurt a damn thing except when they create competition (Alien TC Doom) and sometimes, even that is allowed (Star Wars mod for Unreal I think it is). Shit, Lucasfilm allowed it, and whoah boy look at the devastation it caused to their IP.

Using the law to stop something like this is really just childish behavior, as mods have proven to extend the life of a product. I'm being sarcastic because you're taking yourself way too seriously over something that should be joked about. It's silly harmless fun these guys are having and prosperous too, if they become texture artists or modelers later.

Sure Tecmo is within their right, but does that make it right choice?
 
junkster said:
I know enough about law to be able to interpret what's legal and what isn't. I also know companies like to make up their own "laws", and that some are questionable and for a court to decide. And by the way, I do appreciate that you're trying to educate us about the law.

We know its within their legal right to sue. I don't think anybody ever contested that with you. Did they?

I'm merely asking this: Why sue? What harm is being done? Is it really hurting their IP? Did naked wall textures hurt Doom? Did Barney Doom or MUGEN (fighter game simulator) really hurt id or Capcom or SNK? If they let this continue, the game would eventually either prosper or die anyway, just like every other modded game on the planet.

These guys are tinkering and having a bit of fun. And guess what? If they like what they're doing now, they might become game artists in the future. Scroll up and take a look at that Zelda costume for the DOA girl and tell me that doesn't look great? Someone like Itagaki claims to want these guys to prosper, then goes and says mods are bad? I don't bite, that's just stupid.

The past is a good indicator of the future and mods have never hurt a damn thing except when they create competition (Alien TC Doom) and sometimes, even that is allowed (Star Wars mod for Unreal I think it is).

Using the law to stop something like this is really just childish behavior, as mods have proven to extend the life of a product.

Sure they're within their right, but does that make it right choice?
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If they feel it is hurting their IP, then it is hurting their IP. It is of course THEIR IP.

Your argument is simple to the point of infinite regress. If I am to agree with you, it is to enter into a simple game of where do you draw the line.

The answer most don't seem to want to accept is that it is Tecmo's line to draw. They own the characters. They own the game. You distribute your homebrew content, you are at their mercy. It doesn't matter if it does or does not hurt them, it only matters if they want to say it does.

NinjaHackers broke the law. Tecmo drew the line. Ninjahackers are screwed. I don't see why there is a debate on this beyond delusional copyright theory or moral relativism (both of which are completely retarded).
 
The answer most don't seem to want to accept is that it is Tecmo's line to draw. They own the characters. They own the game. You distribute your homebrew content, you are at their mercy. It doesn't matter if it does or does not hurt them, it only matters if they want to say it does.
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You're WRONG. EVERYBODY gets this! Nobody DOESN'T get it. Every single last person on this board GETS it.

What you don't GET, is that they're turning something harmless into something wretched. These people are borrowing and creating. They're not selling it, and they will probably go off into other creative directions in the future unless Tecmo scared them off for good!

How many people on this planet came up with anything original in their lives? Everything is borrowed and modified even Itagaki's stuff. In fact, I'm so bold as to say that nothing in any of Itagaki's game is original. Are these hackers selling anything? No. Is this competing with, or harming their products? No. Is this ruining their IP? No. (Look at past mods for other games and tell me straight that it ruined the IP). Have mods been proven to do positive things for games and gaming in general? Yes.

I've said many times that they have a right to sue. However, this is a shitty precedent by a company I had respect for.

Law is about damages and compensation. Show me one mod that ruined an IP and I'll accept your arguments.
 
Nobody's arguing that Tecmo isn't within their legal rights to sue. I would argue, though, that it's a dick move by Tecmo and that US IP law is FUBAR. It's not about moral relativism; sometimes human law is just wrong.
 
I can't believe everytime a company exercises some sort of legal restrain (Square shutting down the CT remake, Media Factory cracking down on fansubs, 3DRealms shutting down the Duke Nukem HL2 mod, and now this) there are people up in arms saying "sure it's legally right but do they have to do it?!". The question can really simply be thrown right back the other way. Why do people ("fans" if you must) insist on using intellectual property that isn't theirs? Can't they make their own original mods/games/whatever? If they insist on using something that doesn't belong to them, whoever actually owns it has the right of taking it away.
 
I guess the fans want to have a little extra fun with the games they bought. If you plunk down the money for a game, you should have the legal right to muck around with the files all you want. Honda doesn't get to sue all the Icy Hot Stuntaz out there because their awful car modding makes Honda cars look bad. Why should Tecmo get to sue these people?
 
duckroll said:
I can't believe everytime a company exercises some sort of legal restrain (Square shutting down the CT remake, Media Factory cracking down on fansubs, 3DRealms shutting down the Duke Nukem HL2 mod, and now this) there are people up in arms saying "sure it's legally right but do they have to do it?!". The question can really simply be thrown right back the other way. Why do people ("fans" if you must) insist on using intellectual property that isn't theirs? Can't they make their own original mods/games/whatever? If they insist on using something that doesn't belong to them, whoever actually owns it has the right of taking it away.
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I don't defend your examples. In fact, I agree with your particular examples (except Media Factory since I know nothing about that case). They are competitive to the original product and in no way help the original company.

CT would have been a free and better Chrono Trigger with no money going to SquareEnix. Competitive. Duke on HL2 would have been a free and better Duke game for Valve's HL2, putting money into the pocket of Valve. Competitive also. I agree with you on these.

However these ninjahacker mods require ownership of Dead or Alive, and Ninja Gaiden, among other things, to even use them. Doesn't create competition.

impirius said:
I guess the fans want to have a little extra fun with the games they bought. If you plunk down the money for a game, you should have the legal right to muck around with the files all you want. Honda doesn't get to sue all the Icy Hot Stuntaz out there because their awful car modding makes Honda cars look bad. Why should Tecmo get to sue these people?
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Exactly.
 
Shadax said:
A-fucking-men.
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Except that this has nothing to do with profiting off of someone else's work, and in fact requires the original game to use. This is nothing like MP3 or movie downloads.
 
IIRC, doesn't the issue of IP primarily depend upon potential damages rendered to the company as a result? I fail to see how any damages were done to Tecmo in this case being that the modifications made to the game were done after an individual had already purchased it. The means of circumventing the game's code to make the alterations as well as the publishing of character alterations were made public, but I fail to see how they were potentially damaging to the company financially. This whole scenario screams of aftermarket retrofit. Then again, I'm no attorney and I still have yet to see the actual complaint (or even motion, if any) filed, so I'm entirely in the dark as to what Tecmo is claiming. The issue of damages rendered sounds HIGHLY disputable to me though.

An example of this I believe would be comparable to the act of modifying a car. If someone were to remove the star from their ML-Class and turn it upside down, Mercedes couldn't sue them over the act because it was a modification that was being made to their own personal property. The same implies if they were to publish the means of how the modification was made to the car online. Damages are not being rendered to Mercedes as the alterations are being done by owners of the cars to what has become their own personal property. Once M-B sells you that car, there is nothing they can do about what you choose to do with it.

The only illegal thing I can think of here would be if the game itself was being freely made available for download online.
 
CT would have been a free and better Chrono Trigger with no money going to SquareEnix.
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I wouldn't say that. The developers behind Resurrection offered SquareEnix the chance to publish the game for money. Ultimately, that was their goal, to get it on X-Box, GCN, and PC.

I think it's a bit unfair on Tecmo's part to sue these guys. I'm certain the hackers would of complied with Tecmo's wishes if they atleast sent them a warning. I find the situation to be a ironic as i've chatted with the administrator of NinjaHacker. In general he wanted the skinners to create unique costumes instead of focusing on silly things such as nude skins.
 
Can't they make their own original mods
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That's what they're doing. If they weren't using an existing game or engine they'd be writing one from scratch. That wouldn't be modding, it would be full blown development.
 
IMO there is no comparison between this situation and that of the Chrono Trigger remake. The Chrono Trigger remake involved the creation of an entirely new game using copyrighted characters and material that the creators had no legal rights of use or hold claim to. This circumstance involves modifying the characters of an existing Tecmo videogame that has already been purchased; assuming that my understanding of ninjahacker.net's activities is correct. Only the character modifications/the means of character modification themselves are being made publicly available -- not the game itself -- which in my eyes is an activity which falls directly under the legal protection of aftermarket retrofit. That is why I find this complaint so baffling, because I fail to see anything damaging or harmful about their activities; let alone illegal. we'll never know the full story until we actually get a chance to see the complaint issued by Tecmo, though. =/
 
I'd like it if any Gaffer has the chance to interview Itagaki to make sure to ask them about this. Because the Zelda costume really is a very very nice thing and Tecmo are being asses in suing them.
 
tetsuoxb said:
Now, if TECMO did not EVER protect their IP for a long amount of time, then they can be considered in default of their trademark, but neither this kind of duration, nor a lack of legal action (suing doujin creators in japan) is evident here.
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Doujin things are at least drawn by the fans in their entirety, they only borrow designs. But those modders "overlay" skins onto the original artworks laid out by Tecmo artists. They are fundamentally different.
 
Tecmo is retarded.

Fans are only doing things to give them further enjoyment to their already purchased game.

What's the harm in this? I mean really, some of the default costumes in DoA are already bad enough, what the hell is the harm in that little extra step?

Hopefully DoA will die out completely soon. As long as DoA4 isn't a launch title for Xbox 360 I doubt it will have any major sales, just like DoA:U
 
...the Zelda costume really is a very very nice thing and Tecmo are being asses in suing them.
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That picture i linked was a modification to Soul Calibur. Still, i would say Tecmos are being biggots.
Hopefully DoA will die out completely soon. As long as DoA4 isn't a launch title for Xbox 360 I doubt it will have any major sales, just like DoA:U
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Now would you want that? How else do you think Microsoft makes a profit in Japan? :/
 
tetsuoxb said:
Yes. However, you have to patch the game for it to work (circumventing the digital signature on their software), on a modded xbox (see: Illegal under the DMCA) that will run unsigned code.

The mention of nude skins once is irrelevant. That is what brought the hammer down. Once is enough. Once the hammer was brought down, everything they did to break the law (which is quite lengthy as you say) was pretty much fair game.

Just face the facts... NinjaHackers got busted doing something that was at best "gray market" and at worst a knowing circumvention of copyright law and IP law. The fact that they are completely unapologetic on the matter, running around teamxbox forums like douchebags, makes me wish them the best when they get their balls nailed to the wall.

America really needs to escape this "just because you can do it and not get caught it is right" culture that is prevelant in copyright matters. If they wanted extra skins, they should have been smart and legal and kept them to themselves.
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no, you replace the xbox bios for the game to work, you don't actually do anything to defeat the copyright protection on the game itself to get the game to run

you don't do anything to their digital signiture, the modded bios does it all, you don't actually 'hack' anything in the game itself to get it to run

the actual skin replacements modifies the game in the sense that they modify the texture data, which has nothing to do with copyright protection

if simply modifying game data was illegal, then all those gamesharks, action replays and codebreakers would be illegal, as well as sites that post codes that modify game data since they have the details public
 
SATANIC YANKEES CANNOT POSSIBLY TRULY APPRECIATE THE BEAUTY OF OUR PERFECT WOMEN

WE MUST TEACH THESE WESTERN DEVILS A LESSON THEY SOON WON'T FORGET.

tetsuoxb said:
America really needs to escape this "just because you can do it and not get caught it is right" culture that is prevelant in copyright matters.
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YOU UNDERSTAND THE TRUE JAPANESE SPIRIT. ONLY WE MAY STEAL IPS AND MAKE PORNOGRAPHY ABOUT THEM
 
I wonder if MS is tacitly encouraging Tecmo to adopt this particular position. Unlike Tecmo (who have distributed their Hurricane Packs for free), MS has a strong interest in charging people for downloadable content, and I suspect they view fan-created, freely-distributed mods as competition--why pay $5 for map/car/character model downloads on Live when you can get something similar for free? And if true, it wouldn't be the first time MS has covertly supported someone else's legal action, when said action happens to be furthering MS' interests. (SCO comes to mind...)
 
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