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[EviLore]

In today's world, it's commonplace to signal how much you care about important issues online, or how generous you are, or how righteous. In other words, virtue signaling. But why is that so important? It is because virtue is important. But virtue is not about what you signal, it is about who you are in truth. To consider what the real word means, and how it shaped today's world, let's transport ourselves back in time to an era or two before smartphones and social media.

The Ancient Romans loved and revered Ancient Greek philosophy, and adapted a great deal of their culture directly from Greek thought. The Roman Virtues were a synthesis of Ancient Greek Stoicism and Aristotelean Ethics with distinct Roman values like pietas (duty to family and the state) and fides (faithfulness).

Much like the Romans were obsessed about Greek thought, the Founding Fathers of the United States were completely obsessed with Antiquity. They discussed and quoted it endlessly. Thomas Jefferson's library is a library of Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Plutarch's Lives, Tacitus's Annals, Livy's Histories, Homer and Virgil, and several copies of Lucretius's De Rerum Natura. Adams admired Stoicism's self-control, discipline, and resilience. Washington modeled himself after Cincinnatus, the Roman who was given dictatorial power temporarily to save the Republic, then relinquished it voluntarily:

The most famous story related to Cincinnatus occurs after his retirement from public service to a simple life of farming. As Roman forces struggled to defeat the Aequi, Cincinnatus was summoned from his plough to assume complete control over the state. After achieving a swift victory in sixteen days, Cincinnatus relinquished power and its privileges, returning to labor on his farm. [1]

Cincinnatus's success and his immediate resignation of near-absolute authority at the end of the crisis (traditionally dated to 458 BC) has often been cited as a model of selfless leadership, civic virtue, and service to the greater good. The story has also been seen as an exemplar of agrarian virtues like humility, modesty, and hard work.

This was the Enlightenment, where the fractured connections to Antiquity had been repaired and great men were pouring over ancient knowledge to reframe it into a modern context, with its developments in science and reason, and reshape the world. In those connections to Antiquity, the Founders saw countless exemplars of virtue that inspired them to excellence. They asked themselves how they could be more like Cincinnatus, with his civic virtue to step back from absolute power, or Marcus Aurelius, the philosopher-emperor who practiced restraint and thoughtfulness.

A fine example is that of the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers. Founders published both as they debated back and forth on the formation of the Constitution. The Federalists used pseudonyms like Publius in support of ratifying the Constitution. Publius Valerius Publicola was co-founder of the Roman Republic, which had supplanted monarchy. The Anti-Federalists, who pushed for the inclusion of the Bill of Rights, took on the pseudonym of Brutus, who opposed what he saw as the tyranny of Julius Caesar.

Every action was seen through the lens of virtue in some way. What is the ideal form of a man, and how can we try to live up to that ideal as we reshape the world? Indeed, virtue is referencing over 6,000 times in the Founders' writings:

Selecting a random result from the National Archives, we see Benjamin Franklin thoroughly enraptured by the subject of virtue in one of his essays, which describes in great detail how a man achieves greatness through fundamental virtue rather than knowledge, wealth, or power alone:

Founders Online: The Busy-Body, No. 3, 18 February 1729

The Busy-Body, No. 3, 18 February 1729

founders.archives.gov

It is said that the Persians in their ancient Constitution, had publick Schools in which Virtue was taught as a Liberal Art or Science; and it is certainly of more Consequence to a Man that he has learnt to govern his Passions; in spite of Temptation to be just in his Dealings, to be Temperate in his Pleasures, to support himself with Fortitude under his Misfortunes, to behave with Prudence in all Affairs and in every Circumstance of Life; I say, it is of much more real Advantage to him to be thus qualified, than to be a Master of all the Arts and Sciences in the World beside.

Virtue alone is sufficient to make a Man Great, Glorious and Happy. He that is acquainted with Cato, as I am, cannot help thinking as I do now, and will acknowledge he deserves the Name without being honour’d by it. Cato is a Man whom Fortune has plac’d in the most obscure Part of the Country. His Circumstances are such as only put him above Necessity, without affording him many Superfluities; Yet who is greater than Cato? I happened but the other Day to be at a House in Town, where among others were met Men of the most Note in this Place: Cato had Business with some of them, and knock’d at the Door. The most trifling Actions of a Man, in my Opinion, as well as the smallest Features and Lineaments of the Face, give a nice Observer some Notion of his Mind. Methought he rapp’d in such a peculiar Manner, as seem’d of itself to express, there was One who deserv’d as well as desir’d Admission. He appear’d in the plainest Country Garb; his Great Coat was coarse and looked old and thread-bare; his Linnen was homespun; his Beard perhaps of Seven Days Growth, his Shoes thick and heavy, and every Part of his Dress corresponding. Why was this Man receiv’d with such concurring Respect from every Person in the Room, even from those who had never known him or seen him before? It was not an exquisite Form of Person, or Grandeur of Dress that struck us with Admiration. I believe long Habits of Virtue have a sensible Effect on the Countenance: There was something in the Air of his Face that manifested the true Greatness of his Mind; which likewise appear’d in all he said, and in every Part of his Behaviour, obliging us to regard him with a Kind of Veneration. His Aspect is sweetned with Humanity and Benevolence, and at the same Time emboldned with Resolution, equally free from a diffident Bashfulness and an unbecoming Assurance. The Consciousness of his own innate Worth and unshaken Integrity renders him calm and undaunted in the Presence of the most Great and Powerful, and upon the most extraordinary Occasions. His strict Justice and known Impartiality make him the Arbitrator and Decider of all Differences that arise for many Miles around him, without putting his Neighbours to the Charge, Perplexity and Uncertainty of Law-Suits. He always speaks the Thing he means, which he is never afraid or asham’d to do, because he knows he always means well; and therefore is never oblig’d to blush and feel the Confusion of finding himself detected in the Meanness of a Falshood. He never contrives Ill against his Neighbour, and therefore is never seen with a lowring suspicious Aspect. A mixture of Innocence and Wisdom makes him ever seriously chearful. His generous Hospitality to Strangers according to his Ability, his Goodness, his Charity, his Courage in the Cause of the Oppressed, his Fidelity in Friendship, his Humility, his Honesty and Sincerity, his Moderation and his Loyalty to the Government, his Piety, his Temperance, his Love to Mankind, his Magnanimity, his Publick-spiritedness, and in fine, his Consummate Virtue, make him justly deserve to be esteem’d the Glory of his Country.

——The Brave do never shun the Light,
Just are their Thoughts and open are their Tempers;
Freely without Disguise they love and hate;
Still are they found in the fair Face of Day,
And Heaven and Men are Judges of their Actions. Rowe.9

Who would not rather chuse, if it were in his Choice, to merit the above Character, than be the richest, the most learned, or the most powerful Man in the Province without it?

Almost every Man has a strong natural Desire of being valu’d and esteem’d by the rest of his Species; but I am concern’d and griev’d to see how few fall into the Right and only infallible Method of becoming so. That laudable Ambition is too commonly misapply’d and often ill employ’d. Some to make themselves considerable pursue Learning, others grasp at Wealth, some aim at being thought witty, and others are only careful to make the most of an handsome Person; But what is Wit, or Wealth, or Form, or Learning when compar’d with Virtue? ’Tis true, we love the handsome, we applaud the Learned, and we fear the Rich and Powerful; but we even Worship and adore the Virtuous. Nor is it strange; since Men of Virtue, are so rare, so very rare to be found. If we were as industrious to become Good, as to make ourselves Great, we should become really Great by being Good, and the Number of valuable Men would be much increased; but it is a Grand Mistake to think of being Great without Goodness; and I pronounce it as certain, that there was never yet a truly Great Man that was not at the same Time truly Virtuous.

Cicero describes the Roman Virtues as follows, in De Officiis, Book 1: Moral Goodness:

M. Tullius Cicero, De Officiis, Book I: Moral Goodness, section 11

[11] 4. First of all, Nature has endowed every species1 of living creature with the instinct of self-preservation, of avoiding what seems likely to cause injury to life or limb, and of procuring and providing everything needful for life—food, shelter, and the like. A common property of all creatures is also the reproductive instinct (the purpose of which is the propagation of the species) and also a certain amount2 of concern for their offspring. But the most marked difference between man and beast is this: the beast, just as far as it is moved by the senses and with very little perception of past or future, adapts itself to that alone which is present at the moment; while man—because he is endowed with reason, by which he comprehends the chain of consequences, perceives the causes of things, understands the relation of cause to effect and of effect to cause, draws analogies, and connects and associates the present and the future—easily surveys the course of his whole life and makes the necessary preparations for its conduct.

1 The essential differences between man and the lower animals.
2 Instinct and Reason.

[12] Nature likewise by the power of reason associates man with man in the common bonds of speech and1 life; she implants in him above all, I may say, a [p. 15]strangely tender love for his offspring. She also prompts men to meet in companies, to form public assemblies and to take part in them themselves; and she further dictates, as a consequence of this, the effort on man's part to provide a store of things that minister to his comforts and wants—and not for himself alone, but for his wife and children and the others whom he holds dear and for whom he ought to provide; and this responsibility also stimulates his courage and makes it stronger for the active duties of life.

1 Family ties.

[13] Above all, the search after truth and its eager1 pursuit are peculiar to man. And so, when we have leisure from the demands of business cares, we are eager to see, to hear, to learn something new, and we esteem a desire to know the secrets or wonders of creation as indispensable to a happy life. Thus we come to understand that what is true, simple, and genuine appeals most strongly to a man's nature. To this passion for discovering truth there is added a hungering, as it were, for independence, so that a mind well-moulded by Nature is unwilling to be subject to anybody save one who gives rules of conduct or is a teacher of truth or who, for the general good, rules according to justice and law. From this attitude come greatness of soul and a sense of superiority to worldly conditions.

1 Search after truth.

[14] And it is no mean manifestation of Nature and1 Reason that man is the only animal that has a feeling for order, for propriety, for moderation in word and deed. And so no other animal has a sense of beauty, loveliness, harmony in the visible world; and Nature and Reason, extending the analogy of this from the world of sense to the world of spirit, find that [p. 17]beauty, consistency, order are far more to be maintained in thought and deed, and the same Nature and Reason are careful to do nothing in an improper or unmanly fashion, and in every thought and deed to do or think nothing capriciously.

It is from these elements that is forged and fashioned that moral goodness which is the subject of this inquiry—something that, even though it be not generally ennobled, is still worthy of all honour;2 and by its own nature, we correctly maintain, it merits praise, even though it be praised by none.

1 Moral sensibility.
2 Cicero plays on the double meaning of honestum.: (1) 'moral goodness,' and (2) ' honourable,' ' distinguished,' etc.

Cicero didn't just speak of virtue, he lived it. He defended the republic by publicly opposing Mark Antony's consolidation of power during the Second Triumvirate with his attacks in the Philippics, and was marked for death as a result. He fled Rome, but Antony's soldiers captured him. He extended his neck to his assassin, saying, "there is nothing proper about what you are doing, soldier, but do try to kill me properly." Antony displayed his severed head and hands in the Rostra of the Roman Forum -- where Cicero had orated in defense of the republic -- as revenge. More than two thousand years later, we still read Cicero's prolific works which were singled out for careful historic preservation since the fall of Rome, and his writings on virtue and republican ideals helped define the modern world. Mark Antony, meanwhile, is just another man who vied for power. Perhaps it would have been enough had he won against Octavian, but there is something to Benjamin Franklin's words about wealth, power, and knowledge alone not being enough.

Virtue is not a superficial display to reward yourself for having the correct opinion. It is what great men quietly strived for when forming the world we all live in today. They were deeply flawed, as were the Romans, as were the Greeks, as were the tribal peoples, and as we all are. Rather than seeing ourselves as flawless and righteous, it is the stark recognition of our flaws, and the desire to forge ahead anyway, that allows us to aim for greatness. A purely self-righteous society, or a purely cynical society, is a doomed one. By studying the classics, we can understand that fact, too, with dire urgency, just as the Founders did.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

A purely self-righteous society, or a purely cynical society, is a doomed one.

It's taken me a long time to realize this. There is a difference between pragmatism and cynicism; optimism and idealism. Its quite easy for one to drift into the other.

 

[Mistake]

The concept of virtue is pretty interesting. I have occasionally wondered what the exact reason is I don't like some people, and it usually boils down to humility. Even while achieving the greatest feats and recognition, there's something powerful about putting yourself down to everyone else like it never happened.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Virtue is a tool of politics, and with social media operations it’s a massive tool.

 

[EviLore]

It's taken me a long time to realize this. There is a difference between pragmatism and cynicism; optimism and idealism. Its quite easy for one to drift into the other.

Definitely. Problems are real but they exist to be overcome. When I look back to the 18th century as in the OP, I can’t help but be inspired by the earnestness and drive of the great people of that era, pouring over hundreds of ancient books along with contemporary philosophers and scientists, synthesizing the modern world intentionally out of thin air. The status quo was not so bad, after all, especially for the educated professionals in the American colonies. It required such balls to break free and design a new system, risking it all as traitors to the crown in the process. The Enlightenment, what a time to be alive.

 

[Trilobit]

People who have no regard for true virtue can never understand people who do. It's just incomprehensible to them so they have to degrade it so that it can fit their own frame of reference. I also see it as something you yourself work on. If you start becoming self-righteous and looking down on others and enjoying shaming others to elevate yourself then you probably aren't virtuous.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I am going to play devil's advocate and say this is a highly sanitized and idealized view of roman society, mostly created and refined through the ages due to the wrongful narrative of the ideal polis (roman) the dark ages and the enlightement as a return to rome. In reality this is all absurd, rome wasn't a flame of virtue and during the so called dark ages arts and science flourished. Rome was a throughly corrupt society whose entire economic and social support came from conquest, murder and enslavement. In the times of Cincinattus, rome was a village... they wouldn't conquer greece until 4 centuries later.

 

[EviLore]

I am going to play devil's advocate and say this is a highly sanitized and idealized view of roman society, mostly created and refined through the ages due to the wrongful narrative of the ideal polis (roman) the dark ages and the enlightement as a return to rome. In reality this is all absurd, rome wasn't a flame of virtue and during the so called dark ages arts and science flourished. Rome was a throughly corrupt society whose entire economic and social support came from conquest, murder and enslavement. In the times of Cincinattus, rome was a village... they wouldn't conquer greece until 4 centuries later.

Yeah man the dark ages were amazing. Eating dirt and living as a serf. Can’t be beat. The Roman Empire was fake, so were the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Western culture has no value and should be destroyed.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

The Enlightenment, what a time to be alive.

If you were the 1%, everybody else was toiling in the fields, shitting outside the front porch and making 10 babies because you knew half will not survive the first year.

 

[EviLore]

If you were the 1%, everybody else was toiling in the fields, shitting outside the front porch and making 10 babies because you knew half will not survive the first year.

Toiling in the fields is not that bad once you have 10 kids!

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Rome really didn't start to embrace hellenism until the 3rd century BC and even then it was met with large amounts of consternation and pushback. The capture of Tarentum and the influx of Greek slaves to the Republic caused a shift in the largely latin culture of the Early Republic.

Regardless, the Republic's ideal of dignitas, honor through civil service and ethical conduct, are worth taking forward in the modern world. We do have to remember that Cicero was a staunch optimate who was deeply against any sort of power or respect for the plebians and as such we can't take his writings about the populares during the Crisis of the Roman Republic at face value.

What lesson we really need to take from the Republic is in its collapse. The violations of the mos maiorum moved from being occasional and subtle to everyday and blatant. One side learned they could gain power through lies, populism, murder, violence, theft, personal vendettas spilling into street warfare and civil wars, and the rise of cults of personality around tyrants like Sulla, the other side eventually started doing the same to survive. The Roman Constitution was both too rigid in that it couldn't adapt to the land and wealth distribution crisis that plagued the late Republic and too flaccid in that eventually it was just walked all over and disregarded at a whim, justified with divine portents and blood.


Simply put, Massive Wealth Inequality + Lack of Land Ownership for the Masses + Power Through Violence and Money = Dictatorship.

 

[Toots]

Virtue is not a superficial display to reward yourself for having the correct opinion. It is what great men quietly strived for when forming the world we all live in today. They were deeply flawed, as were the Romans, as were the Greeks, as were the tribal peoples, and as we all are. Rather than seeing ourselves as flawless and righteous, it is the stark recognition of our flaws, and the desire to forge ahead anyway, that allows us to aim for greatness. A purely self-righteous society, or a purely cynical society, is a doomed one. By studying the classics, we can understand that fact, too, with dire urgency, just as the Founders did.

Truer words have never been spoken (since the fall of the Roman Empire ).
There's something deeply wrong in todays society where people often seem to care more about something appears to be rather than what it truly is (influencers worship being a great exemple ; they look like successful people with hollywood star lifestyle, but they really are tidepod eating morons), that i think comes from our collective refusal to see ourselves how we truly are.

 

[Ownage]

I believe that until lately certain business interests have intentionally shifted attention far away from a legitimate virtue focus towards a focus on pleasure and individuality. I also sense that the traditional values mentioned in OP will make a strong comeback in 2025. For one, woke is dead. This is worthy of a celebration in itself.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Yeah man the dark ages were amazing. Eating dirt and living as a serf. Can’t be beat. The Roman Empire was fake, so were the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Western culture has no value and should be destroyed.

Ok look evilore its your thread and it wasnt my intention to take a dump on it... i had a longer post talking about rome and its problems and outcomes for romans and all that and the middle ages and lives of the peasantry all that but whatever, just at least be aware that a good chunk of the enlightement was spent lying about the middle ages to the point of excess

 

[winjer]

I am going to play devil's advocate and say this is a highly sanitized and idealized view of roman society, mostly created and refined through the ages due to the wrongful narrative of the ideal polis (roman) the dark ages and the enlightement as a return to rome. In reality this is all absurd, rome wasn't a flame of virtue and during the so called dark ages arts and science flourished. Rome was a throughly corrupt society whose entire economic and social support came from conquest, murder and enslavement. In the times of Cincinattus, rome was a village... they wouldn't conquer greece until 4 centuries later.

Admittedly, ancient Rome, when compared to modern civilization, is very lacking.
But if I had to live in that period, I would rather be a Roman citizen, than anything else.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

believe that until lately certain business interests have intentionally shifted attention far away from a legitimate virtue focus towards a focus on pleasure and individuality.

Never true. Business interests at scale have always focused on the generation of massive amounts of wealth for a small number of individuals. This was part of the failing of the Republic. Large scale equestrian publicani corporations became obscenely rich from the spoils of the newly conquered provinces of the Republican empire and led to a breakdown of the social order as the Roman Constitution wasn't designed to manage such a large and expansive state.

. I also sense that the traditional values mentioned in OP will make a strong comeback in 2025. For one, woke is dead. This is worthy of a celebration in itself

This is (mostly) the exact language that Cato the Elder used to push back against hellenism (swap "woke" for hellenism), in the end the hellenization of Rome was inevitable as the population became more educated and the Republican empire grew.

 

[Kraz]

This is (mostly) the exact language that Cato the Elder used to push back against hellenism (swap "woke" for hellenism), in the end the hellenization of Rome was inevitable as the population became more educated and the Republican empire grew.

This points toward a forceful solution for those that want to impose an unnatural resilience of their supposed 'virtue' based on falsehoods, like an imagined Heaven after death only if accepting of their constructed god:
To avoid a Hellenization repeating, the destruction of advanced secular education might be considered by those fixated on trying to kill the "scary, evil" woke that haunts their every night and day. Remove things that uplift the entire nation of people to think independently, be healthy and protected; take away the things that replace superstition with natural philosophy. Although, that would have other consequences that will undermine stature.
For a modern example, the Moscovites are doing this and while it gives them a barbarous capability for expansionist murder under the guise of virtue, it isn't real and is destroying their nation.

 

[EviLore]

Ok look evilore its your thread and it wasnt my intention to take a dump on it... i had a longer post talking about rome and its problems and outcomes for romans and all that and the middle ages and lives of the peasantry all that but whatever, just at least be aware that a good chunk of the enlightement was spent lying about the middle ages to the point of excess

Denying the Dark Ages and claiming art and science flourished in Europe during that period is one of the most ridiculous things someone can say about history.

How many books worth reading were written during Classical Antiquity compared to the period from the 6th century until the 14th century? There is very little until Dante and Chaucer in the 14th century. Meanwhile, >90% of the material from Antiquity is lost to the world and you could still spend a lifetime reading its works.

Technology? All lost or regressed after Antiquity: concrete, aqueducts, sewers, roads, hydraulics, baths, medical techniques, glass production, many others

Math and Science? Loss of fundamental mathematics (geometry), astronomy, biology, others. Much of it had to be reintroduced via the Islamic region and Constantinople in the 12th-14th centuries.

Philosophy and logic? Much of it suppressed or lost, again, until the 12th-14th centuries.

Art?

190 BC:

18 AD:

980 AD:

 

[EviLore]

Currency:

Athens 450 BC

Athens, 165 BC

Rome, 135 AD

England, 785 AD

England, 1000 AD

 

[Liljagare]

Denying the Dark Ages and claiming art and science flourished in Europe during that period is one of the most ridiculous things someone can say about history.

How many books worth reading were written during Classical Antiquity compared to the period from the 6th century until the 14th century? There is very little until Dante and Chaucer in the 14th century. Meanwhile, >90% of the material from Antiquity is lost to the world and you could still spend a lifetime reading its works.

Technology? All lost or regressed after Antiquity: concrete, aqueducts, sewers, roads, hydraulics, baths, medical techniques, glass production, many others

Math and Science? Loss of fundamental mathematics (geometry), astronomy, biology, others. Much of it had to be reintroduced via the Islamic region and Constantinople in the 12th-14th centuries.

Art?

A fun discussion!

The dark ages mythos is a very Christian invention, during the so called "Dark ages", most of northern Europe made leaps and bounds in technology, society and culture. Modern democracy is founded on a few crazy Viking warlords getting together at the Allting, not the greek wierd concept. They gave the world a government which serves as foundation for governance in countries all over the current world. In truth, the Vikings gave to and educated the world as much as the Greeks and Romans. Their philosophy that accepted other religions as that regions "truth" enabled them to settle most of the known world, Saxons, Normans and the Rus, are all descendants from them.

What part of the world didn't those guys settle? In the end, pretty much, they almost covered half the globe.

Math and Science? The Norse circumnavigated half the globe, something no other major Empire has been proven to have done until Columbus (*cough* whore arse genocidial supporter*).

Technology? Longships, greek fire, running water, all known, best steel ever made by humans, until theese very late years. Vikings had running water, water toilets, were highly knowledgable regarding infections/head injuries and broken bones, and how to treat it all. They had a extensive knowledge of both Astrology, Geometry and more importantly, understood the importance of boyancy.

It is called the dark ages, mainly by Christians, or Abrahamic cultures because they had a enormous setback from 500-1500 AD, then regained power. They had a little peepee problem and then after the religious wars in Europe, decided to call it all "the dark ages" as the belief in a singular god dipped in popularity and burned a shit tonne of documents because it was all the knowledge of "satan" (a fictious christian demi-god).

The Moors were Muslim people of African descent who ruled parts of Iberia (modern-day Spain and Portugal) from 711–1492, only time in history where christians, muslims, and jews, managed to coexist, albeit for a short time, and work together, until, yes, you guessed it, Christians had to have another war and "drive them out". They are also responsible for inventing more things you still use than you can possibly gather.

History is more fun, when you read about it alot of different languages, and can actually read the sources, a few million runestones, that for some reason aren't pictured or imported into history books are a hell of a source..

Christianity really skewed history, and the history books in a reaaaaally propaganda like way.

Art is subjective, but I love the Alcazar and the Alhambra


Probarly the source of Viking horned helmets:

 

[EviLore]

A fun discussion!

The dark ages mythos is a very Christian invention, during the so called "Dark ages", most of northern Europe made leaps and bounds in technology, society and culture. Modern democracy is founded on a few crazy Viking warlords getting together at the Allting, not the greek wierd concept. They gave the world a government which serves as foundation for governance in countries all over the current world. In truth, the Vikings gave to and educated the world as much as the Greeks and Romans. Their philosophy that accepted other religions as that regions "truth" enabled them to settle most of the known world, Saxons, Normans and the Rus, are all descendants from them.

What part of the world didn't those guys settle? In the end, pretty much, they almost covered half the globe.

Math and Science? The Norse circumnavigated half the globe, something no other major Empire has been proven to have done until Columbus (*cough* whore arse genocidial supporter*).

Technology? Longships, greek fire, running water, all known, best steel ever made by humans, until theese very late years. Vikings had running water, water toilets, were highly knowledgable regarding infections/head injuries and broken bones, and how to treat it all. They had a extensive knowledge of both Astrology, Geometry and more importantly, understood the importance of boyancy.

It is called the dark ages, mainly by Christians, or Abrahamic cultures because they had a enormous setback from 500-1500 AD, then regained power. They had a little peepee problem and then after the religious wars in Europe, decided to call it all "the dark ages" as the belief in a singular god dipped in popularity and burned a shit tonne of documents because it was all the knowledge of "satan" (a fictious christian demi-god).

The Moors were Muslim people of African descent who ruled parts of Iberia (modern-day Spain and Portugal) from 711–1492, only time in history where christians, muslims, and jews, managed to coexist, albeit for a short time, and work together, until, yes, you guessed it, Christians had to have another war and "drive them out". They are also responsible for inventing more things you still use than you can possibly gather.

History is more fun, when you read about it alot of different languages, and can actually read the sources, a few million runestones, that for some reason aren't pictured or imported into history books are a hell of a source..

Christianity really skewed history, and the history books in a reaaaaally propaganda like way.

The brain rot that’s being taught in European schools at the moment sure is a sight to behold.

 

[jason10mm]

It helps to remember that up till just a few decades ago, if some said "I went to college and studies the Liberal Arts" it was subjects like in the OP that were being taught. Rigorous didactics about the classics; relentless debates of philosophy, critical thinking, and humanity; and often learning several antiquated languages so you could read THE SOURCES in the native tongue. A FAR CRY from "underwater basket weaving" that 'Liberal Arts' has come to mean today.

I'd put a classically trained student from yesteryear up against any STEM program today for the intellect and caliber of the student.

 

[Liljagare]

The brain rot that’s being taught in European schools at the moment sure is a sight to behold.

Luckily, we have our history, literarly written in stone, nothing anyone can do about and mumbling about "dark ages".

 

[EviLore]

Luckily, we have our history, literarly written in stone, nothing anyone can do about and mumbling about "dark ages".

Dismissing Columbus as a “genocider” while propping up the Vikings is on the stone tablets too?

 

[Liljagare]

Dismissing Columbus as a “genocider” while propping up the Vikings is on the stone tablets too?

Columbus enslaved the Arawak and commited genocide. "Las Casas's "Brevisima relación de la destrucción de las Indias".

Some say that the Vikings were more about survival than subjugation, and that the scale of destruction they wreaked has been overemphasized. Others say that the Vikings were unprovoked aggressors who burned down settlements and took cattle, money, food, and women. Christian lies, again, the raids of Orkney have little archelogical evidence.

But, whom according to you did the Norse comitt any genocidal activity towards?

 

[EviLore]

Columbus enslaved the Arawak and commited genocide. "Las Casas's "Brevisima relación de la destrucción de las Indias".

Some say that the Vikings were more about survival than subjugation, and that the scale of destruction they wreaked has been overemphasized. Others say that the Vikings were unprovoked aggressors who burned down settlements and took cattle, money, food, and women. Christian lies, again, the raids of Orkney have little archelogical evidence.

But, who according to you did the Norse comitt any genocidal activity towards?

Incredible response. Do inscribe it on a stone tablet for posterity.

 

[Liljagare]

Incredible response. Do inscribe it on a stone tablet for posterity.

I shall! Atleast then it will outlive all and most of Abrahamic religious propaganda.

Or, like a very famous historian once wrote "Yeah, I am sure the Scandinavians were just sitting on their arses for 3500 years and had no clue as to how to develop anything".

 

[Clear]

The dark ages mythos is a very Christian invention, during the so called "Dark ages", most of northern Europe made leaps and bounds in technology, society and culture. Modern democracy is founded on a few crazy Viking warlords getting together at the Allting, not the greek wierd concept. They gave the world a government which serves as foundation for governance in countries all over the current world. In truth, the Vikings gave to and educated the world as much as the Greeks and Romans. Their philosophy that accepted other religions as that regions "truth" enabled them to settle most of the known world, Saxons, Normans and the Rus, are all descendants from them.

Uh-huh. You do get that the word democracy is derived from Greek right? And that the modern world we know today is a product of the enlightenment? The historical moment when the cultural discontinuity caused by the fall of Rome was finally addressed.

Also, the Dark Ages are specific to European history, and seeing that Christianity was the dominant religion in Europe - remember the Catholic Church is the throughline from the fall of Imperial Rome - outside of the areas conquered by Islamic invaders (ironically another Abrahamic religious/cultural group) anyway, the nomenclature is kinda obvious.

Really not sure about the fixation on the Norse; they had a culture for sure but it was built of raiding and later farming. They didn't really build much. And building stuff, particularly on a large scale, is kind important in cultural preservation over time!

 

[Liljagare]

Uh-huh. You do get that the word democracy is derived from Greek right? And that the modern world we know today is a product of the enlightenment? The historical moment when the cultural discontinuity caused by the fall of Rome was finally addressed.

Also, the Dark Ages are specific to European history, and seeing that Christianity was the dominant religion in Europe - remember the Catholic Church is the throughline from the fall of Imperial Rome - outside of the areas conquered by Islamic invaders (ironically another Abrahamic religious/cultural group) anyway, the nomenclature is kinda obvious.

Really not sure about the fixation on the Norse; they had a culture for sure but it was built of raiding and later farming. They didn't really build much. And building stuff, particularly on a large scale, is kind important in cultural preservation over time!

During the years of the Dark ages there were maaaaany beliefs that the Catholics declared as satanic while Christianity wasn't THE major religion.

Meanwhile:

How Vikings Created Modern Democracy

Many people are not aware of is the fact that fans of modern democracy can actually thank Vikings for contributing to its creation.

www.fjordtours.com

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Uh-huh. You do get that the word democracy is derived from Greek right? And that the modern world we know today is a product of the enlightenment? The historical moment when the cultural discontinuity caused by the fall of Rome was finally addressed.

Also, the Dark Ages are specific to European history, and seeing that Christianity was the dominant religion in Europe - remember the Catholic Church is the throughline from the fall of Imperial Rome - outside of the areas conquered by Islamic invaders (ironically another Abrahamic religious/cultural group) anyway, the nomenclature is kinda obvious.

Really not sure about the fixation on the Norse; they had a culture for sure but it was built of raiding and later farming. They didn't really build much. And building stuff, particularly on a large scale, is kind important in cultural preservation over time!

The enlightment wouldn't have happened without the scientific advances during the caliphate that medieval scribes dutifully translated into latin and whose copies blessed the libraries of the european luminaries who would get the whole enlightment thing going.

The very own numbers you use for math are arabic. Some dirty medieval dude called FIbonacci was responsible for their use today.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

The Early Medieval Period was a time characterized by increased regionalism. Instead of the resources of an entire empire being spread out across western Europe the states that emerged in the wake of the collapse of the Western Empire and the chaos caused by Justinian's reconquests you see a significant change in priorities.

Aqueducts are useful for moving water hundreds of miles, they aren't really useful when your polity is a few hundred square miles itself. So you had aqueducts recycled for new projects. Roman roads were typically well maintained where they still connected populated settlements. Because of the fracturing of Europe you started to see the development of citadels and castle towns. There wasn't much of a point in building complex utilities when your town was liable to be burnt down several times in your lifetime.

Art, like science and architecture, reflects the society that created it. There are some examples of complex Medieval art but the kind of things you typically think of when you think of Medieval art is specifically Christian art, it was made to be plain and easily understood by an illiterate audience.


So yes, there was some regional regression (frankly most of it happened before the total collapse of the Western Empire), but it wasn't some blanket Dark Ages as we understood it.

 

[Clear]

During the years of the Dark ages there were maaaaany beliefs that the Catholics declared as satanic while Christianity wasn't THE major religion.

Meanwhile:

How Vikings Created Modern Democracy

Many people are not aware of is the fact that fans of modern democracy can actually thank Vikings for contributing to its creation.

www.fjordtours.com

Yes they *CONTRIBUTED*, but created ? I really don't think so!

Even if you cite Magna Carta which being 1215 falls within the period in question, you need to look at it in the context of feudalism, where the King (or Queen) was essentially the dominant warlord. The declaration was basically a political expediency on the part of King John to maintain the throne by placating the lords threatening an uprising.

 

[Artoris]

Uh-huh. You do get that the word democracy is derived from Greek right? And that the modern world we know today is a product of the enlightenment? The historical moment when the cultural discontinuity caused by the fall of Rome was finally addressed.

Also, the Dark Ages are specific to European history, and seeing that Christianity was the dominant religion in Europe - remember the Catholic Church is the throughline from the fall of Imperial Rome - outside of the areas conquered by Islamic invaders (ironically another Abrahamic religious/cultural group) anyway, the nomenclature is kinda obvious.

Really not sure about the fixation on the Norse; they had a culture for sure but it was built of raiding and later farming. They didn't really build much. And building stuff, particularly on a large scale, is kind important in cultural preservation over time!

"They didn't really build much" wood was mostly used as a building material and not much has survived

 

[Clear]

"They didn't really build much" wood was mostly used as a building material and not much has survived

Cutting trees is a lot less difficult than quarrying, cutting and transporting stone blocks over long distances! In fact that requires woodworking skills to facilitate, so...

Look, I'm sorry but there's a big difference between a Viking funerary barrow and the great Pyramids of Egypt or Roman Mausoleums. The ability of cultural artifacts to withstand the ravages of time is important because without undeniable evidence of precursor civilization there's less impetus to go back and investigate those cultures.

Also, it really has to be said that if I was to claim a singular most important historical moment for shaping the modern world, then I'd have to pin it down to the industrial revolution as that radically re-shaped everything and facilitated an exponential increase in technological advancement.

And that's all about 18th Century Britain operating primarily under the influence of post enlightenment thought.

 

[MrA]

Columbus enslaved the Arawak and commited genocide. "Las Casas's "Brevisima relación de la destrucción de las Indias".

Some say that the Vikings were more about survival than subjugation, and that the scale of destruction they wreaked has been overemphasized. Others say that the Vikings were unprovoked aggressors who burned down settlements and took cattle, money, food, and women. Christian lies, again, the raids of Orkney have little archelogical evidence.

But, whom according to you did the Norse comitt any genocidal activity towards?

I was going to respond seriously, but people who learned their history from the Assassin's Creed aren't worth the effort.

 

[Mistake]

Vikings were saints and dark ages were bright This thread has me rolling

 

[EviLore]

Vikings were saints and dark ages were bright This thread has me rolling

Imagine your ancestors looking down from Valhalla while you try to convince people on the internet that they were actually super nice guys, basically harmless.

 

[Toots]

The brain rot that’s being taught in European schools at the moment sure is a sight to behold.

But where else would you learn that vikings had both astrology and geometry ??

I know he meant astronomy (or at least i choose to believe that) but still...

Also the running water bit
I not an expert but i always thought that viking were so well organized they had to pillage neighbours on a monthly basis just to get food and stuff... To think they were the one building those beauties all around Europe

Also the amount of disinformation on the internet is crazy...
Here's what happen when you search for viking aqueducts online :

Can you believe that crap ?!

 

[RoboFu]

The problem with history these days are people have become too dumb and simple that they can only take things at face value and not translates the differences in language and culture over hundreds and thousands of years.


Case in point many Roman public buildings had vomitoriums. It is widely thought that this is where the rich go to throw up to stay thin and not bloated. it is not . It is just an area where a lot of people can move through or can be EXPELLED though in great quantity. We have those today in our public stadiums and theaters.

 

[Toots]

The problem with history these days are people have become too dumb and simple that they can only take things at face value and not translates the differences in language and culture over hundreds and thousands of years.


Case in point many Roman public buildings had vomitoriums. It is widely thought that this is where the rich go to throw up to stay thin and not bloated. it is not . It is just an area where a lot of people can move through or can be EXPELLED though in great quantity. We have those today in our public stadiums and theaters.

What's the point of studying history if you cannot superimpose your modern views and values to everything ?

What's the point of living if we live in a world where hip hop blasting black samurai did not really exist ? A world where the Dahomey Amazons are flawed characters, rather than a holier-than-thou mary sues ?
A world where Harvey Milk isn't Gay Jesus but a man with problematic behavior towards youngs impressionable runaways ? I only used woke exemple but alt right dudes are great offenders too (rationalizing the US warmongering behavior for exemple).

 

[jason10mm]

What's the point of studying history if you cannot superimpose your modern views and values to everything ?

What's the point of living if we live in a world where hip hop blasting black samurai did not really exist ? A world where the Dahomey Amazons are flawed characters, rather than a holier-than-thou mary sues ?
A world where Harvey Milk isn't Gay Jesus but a man with problematic behavior towards youngs impressionable runaways ? I only used woke exemple but alt right dudes are great offenders too (rationalizing the US warmongering behavior for exemple).

Thats the fascinating thing about history and why it can be revisited time and time again. Our understanding of just the physical events is often dodgy at best, even things that occurred within our own lifetimes, much less stuff from thousands of years ago. And the THOUGHTS of the people, why they did what they did, almost no ability to really think like a pharaoh, a roman soldier standing on Hadrian's wall, or a sailor on the deck of a ship stuffed with slaves headed to Arabia, almost impossible to do but could be critical for understanding when we face a similar situation now.

I like to tell my students that future folks will view us in the same disparaging, patronizing way we view folks from 100+ years ago. There are things we are doing TODAY that will be viewed as barbaric as slavery, whipping, leeching, human sacrifice, or any number of "primitive acts" we assign to our ancestors. Perspective is key.

 

[winjer]

 

[BlackTron]

About to go install a working toilet in my now-historically-inaccurate LEGO viking ship.

 

[Liljagare]

But where else would you learn that vikings had both astrology and geometry ??

I know he meant astronomy (or at least i choose to believe that) but still...

Also the running water bit
I not an expert but i always thought that viking were so well organized they had to pillage neighbours on a monthly basis just to get food and stuff... To think they were the one building those beauties all around Europe

Also the amount of disinformation on the internet is crazy...
Here's what happen when you search for viking aqueducts online :

Can you believe that crap ?!

 

[EviLore]

Deranged person quoting an author's attempt at creative writing about how 1950s hip the Vikings were. Source article is not serious work.

 

[Liljagare]

Deranged person quoting an author's attempt at creative writing about how 1950s hip the Vikings were. Source article is not serious work.

Refers to, St Brice's day massacre, and the Oxford massacre, closely related to the house of Knytlinga.

The St Brice’s Day Massacre - Museum of Oxford

Mass grave of murdered vikings sheds light on King Aethelred’s doomed reign

museumofoxford.org

House of Knýtlinga - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apologies for my english not always making sense, english is like my 9th language, no insults or other bad intent intended, and I often manage to mix languages into a complete mess, LOL!

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