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[MarkMe2525]

To start, I recognize my thread title is hyperbole.

I just got through watching an interview of Steve Jobs from 1981. At this point in time, the personal computer market was in its infancy. To most people, computers where these monolithic platforms that were used for business, science, and warfare. Of course, with the rise of the Apple II, the tides of change were apparent. In this discussion they talk about the future potential for computer use in everyday life.

Naturally, they immediately went to areas where the computer would complement the enrichment of education, arts, entertainment, and music. Of course, these things have came to pass, but they were oblivious to the strain that these machines would put onto our society. As all tools, they can be used to supplement our ability to create, but also destroy. I wonder if this was the inevitable outcome. Can we pinpoint a time where we "went left instead of right" or do all roads lead to Rome?


To those who are interested, here is the interview.

 

[feynoob]

Knowledge comes at a risk. Nothing is free my brother.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Knowledge comes at a risk. Nothing is free my brother.

I would agree that knowledge can pose a risk, but only to those who attempt to surpress knowledge for their gain. I don't agree that knowledge in itself is the variable that brings risk, as knowledge is what leads to understanding. I believe the spread of incomplete or false knowledge is what currently fuels the machinery of our destruction.

Our education system, in large part, revolves around the rope memorization of data and calculation. Very little (or not enough) effort is spent on strengthening our ability to parse through the amount of data that we are exposed to on a day to day basis. Many of the conclusions we come to are not "knowledge", but fallacy fueled by confirmation bias. Even worse, often this data is pre wrapped with a conclusion already attached for our consumption.

I'm spit balling here, so feel free to pushback if you believe I am in error.

 

[feynoob]

I would agree that knowledge can pose a risk, but only to those who attempt to surpress knowledge for their gain. I don't agree that knowledge in itself is the variable that brings risk, as knowledge is what leads to understanding. I believe the spread of incomplete or false knowledge is what currently fuels the machinery of our destruction.

Our education system, in large part, revolves around the rope memorization of data and calculation. Very little (or not enough) effort is spent on strengthening our ability to parse through the amount of data that we are exposed to on a day to day basis. Many of the conclusions we come to are not "knowledge", but fallacy fueled by confirmation bias. Even worse, often this data is pre wrapped with a conclusion already attached for our consumption.

I'm spit balling here, so feel free to pushback if you believe I am in error.

Knowledge simply gives a platform to everyone. Good or bad depends on how people use it.

 

[IDKFA]

I believe the spread of incomplete or false knowledge is what currently fuels the machinery of our destruction.

I'd argue this trend started with the rise of social media. Giving everyone a voice and a soapbox in the town square should have been empowering. Instead we now have a mass dunning-kruger effect where people think they're experts in a particular subject from reading a Wikipedia summary. We have people spreading fake news and false information to manipulate others. We've created toxic eco chambers so destructive that people literally hate others with a slightly different opinion to their own.

Computers themselves and the internet are a net positive to humanity. Social media was where it went downhill. Social media opened Pandora's box and gave birth to the age of ignorance. There is no going back from here.

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

Knowledge comes at a risk. Nothing is free my brother.

The more that you know , the shorter your lifespan will be.

 

[feynoob]

The more that you know , the shorter your lifespan will be.

Couldn't agree more. I would do anything to become oblivious to the world. Knowing more will not do you good.

 

[feynoob]

Computers themselves and the internet are a net positive to humanity.

Computers didn't do anything. It's the storage that lifted this world up.

Because of humans life expectancy, we needed something that can record our knowledge. So having computer storage that can actually record a knowledge made life easier. This gave us the ability to evolve and develop more tools.

It's also the reason why animals don't evolve that much like humans. They don't have the chance to record their knowledge.

 

[deriks]

People are getting more information in a day than they could do in a year back in the 80s, for better or worse

The problem is that some people just want the easy way out on stuff, not doing real work. Also, they care too much about other people's business instead of themselves. Having some likes in social network is basically some kind of good proof for them, and they live for that shit. It's horrible

 

[jshackles]

You know how in 1999 The Matrix claimed that 1999 was the pinnacle of human society? At the time I thought it was bullshit and that the line in the movie wouldn't age well... turns out, I believe it's the actual pinnacle you're describing OP. The convergence point where computers stopped being devices for human betterment and started to become devices created for human suffering.

 

[MarkMe2525]

I'd argue this trend started with the rise of social media. Giving everyone a voice and a soapbox in the town square should have been empowering. Instead we now have a mass dunning-kruger effect where people think they're experts in a particular subject from reading a Wikipedia summary. We have people spreading fake news and false information to manipulate others. We've created toxic eco chambers so destructive that people literally hate others with a slightly different opinion to their own.

Computers themselves and the internet are a net positive to humanity. Social media was where it went downhill. Social media opened Pandora's box and gave birth to the age of ignorance. There is no going back from here.

I had the same thoughts, but didn't want to stifle discussion by leading the conversation there

 

[ReBurn]

I would agree that knowledge can pose a risk, but only to those who attempt to surpress knowledge for their gain. I don't agree that knowledge in itself is the variable that brings risk, as knowledge is what leads to understanding. I believe the spread of incomplete or false knowledge is what currently fuels the machinery of our destruction.

Our education system, in large part, revolves around the rope memorization of data and calculation. Very little (or not enough) effort is spent on strengthening our ability to parse through the amount of data that we are exposed to on a day to day basis. Many of the conclusions we come to are not "knowledge", but fallacy fueled by confirmation bias. Even worse, often this data is pre wrapped with a conclusion already attached for our consumption.

I'm spit balling here, so feel free to pushback if you believe I am in error.

Information has always come prewrapped in a conclusion. It's not a recent phenomenon and computers didn't make it happen.

The world didn't reach a 50% literacy rate until the 1950's, so for nearly all of human history people have relied on the conclusions of others to understand the world. The majority of humanity has never been able to think for itself and has always relied on bias as a guide for believing what we're told. Factions, nations, denominations, political parties...pretty much all formed based on biases.

The phenomenon you see now is people thinking they know everything because practically everyone can read and they have instant access to the sum of human knowledge, but they don't know what it means. Since most people still don't have the intelligence to figure things out on their own all they can do is accept what they're being told based on how they feel about it.

If anything computers have accelerated literacy and education. They didn't really take anything away. They did give us a window into our collective ignorance and in response to it we huddled up deeper into echo chambers based on our feelings. People have stopped learning because learning is hard. Because it's hard it makes you feel bad when you can't learn, so learning has been deprioritized in favor of feeling good about yourself even if you're a failure.

 

[IDKFA]

Computers didn't do anything. It's the storage that lifted this world up.

Because of humans life expectancy, we needed something that can record our knowledge. So having computer storage that can actually record a knowledge made life easier. This gave us the ability to evolve and develop more tools.

Yes, language and the written word have been very important to the development of humanity.

However, I didn't say computers were the greatest invention humans have made (what that is a debatable), only that they've had a positive impact. Few examples being accelerated scientific discoveries, leading to new treatments and cures for diseases, or providing education that is accessible to millions and breaking down barriers to knowledge.

It's also the reason why animals don't evolve that much like humans. They don't have the chance to record their knowledge.

An interesting theory. I'd probably say language is one of the main factors as to why humans are so different to any other animal. The development of complex language enabled us to communicate ideas, share knowledge, and cooperate on a larger scale, something not shared by any other living animal.

I'd also say our large brains and our unique ability to think abstractly are also important factors.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Information has always come prewrapped in a conclusion. It's not a recent phenomenon and computers didn't make it happen.

The world didn't reach a 50% literacy rate until the 1950's, so for nearly all of human history people have relied on the conclusions of others to understand the world. The majority of humanity has never been able to think for itself and has always relied on bias as a guide for believing what we're told. Factions, nations, denominations, political parties...pretty much all formed based on biases.

The phenomenon you see now is people thinking they know everything because practically everyone can read and they have instant access to the sum of human knowledge, but they don't know what it means. Since most people still don't have the intelligence to figure things out on their own all they can do is accept what they're being told based on how they feel about it.

If anything computers have accelerated literacy and education. They didn't really take anything away. They did give us a window into our collective ignorance and in response to it we huddled up deeper into echo chambers based on our feelings. People have stopped learning because learning is hard. Because it's hard it makes you feel bad when you can't learn, so learning has been deprioritized in favor of feeling good about yourself even if you're a failure.

I will push back some on this. Yes, one could find sources that delivered information that was told in a way to lead one to a conclusion, but our "news" sources weren't always this blatant about it.

I watched some old VHS's I recorded when I was young, and on those tapes were late night news broadcasts. It was jarring to see information delivered in this manner. The anchor said that something had happened, relayed a quote from one particular expert, then relayed a counterpoint that was given. The anchor did not share their opinion, the anchor didn't frame the story in a biased manner, just laid out a situation and relevant facts.

You will find a similar delivery in old news articles. Opinion pieces existed, but not only were they clearly labeled as such, more than one side was usually presented. One could suggest I am remembering with rose tinted glasses, but I tell you it shook me watching this. It wasn't perfect, but it was clear that these people took the idea of journalistic integrity seriously, and they made attempts to be objective. You rarely find that in today's noise.

I do agree with the sentiment that "everyone's an expert", and that's a bad thing. We need to collectively be humbled as Dunning-Krugger (Idk if this is spelled correctly) is running wild and is a problem.

Computers didn't do anything. It's the storage that lifted this world up.

I agree that this ability for language and literacy, that humans possess, directly leads to our ability to technological and culturally progress, but for the everyday individual, they are not looking to source old information. Their choices and opinions are not shaped from "yesterdays news", but by the constant blasting of information framed to instill fear. Fear of your neighbor, fear of your police officers, fear of your kids teachers, and fear of your "leaders" is what is served up to us. Not only do we now get made aware of every child abduction, illegal immigrant crossing, or drug overdose, but we are almost exclusively being made aware of these happenings.

It's also the reason why animals don't evolve that much like humans. They don't have the chance to record their knowledge.

I believe you have this backwards. In other words, It's not that "animals" don't evolve to be like humans due to them not having recorded history, they don't have recorded history because nature did not pressure the selection for the ability to do so.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

I'd argue this trend started with the rise of social media. Giving everyone a voice and a soapbox in the town square should have been empowering. Instead we now have a mass dunning-kruger effect where people think they're experts in a particular subject from reading a Wikipedia summary. We have people spreading fake news and false information to manipulate others. We've created toxic eco chambers so destructive that people literally hate others with a slightly different opinion to their own.

Computers themselves and the internet are a net positive to humanity. Social media was where it went downhill. Social media opened Pandora's box and gave birth to the age of ignorance. There is no going back from here.

There is a layered problem with society and the internet. I feel this problem is very much deep. Unfortunately, not everyone needs to be heard, because not everyone has something to say that is positive or uplifting or informative to the masses. Just noise, garbage data and raw, unchecked emotion and or bias.
I really hope to become a better person, myself... I want to breathe a sigh of relief on my last moments, with that in mind.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Technological progress has far outpaced the average person’s capabilities to understand and use such technology. Jobs’ analogy stands, and there is nothing wrong with the bike. Comic speaks for itself.

 

[Tams]

I miss the 90s and 00s where a computer was something you planned to use and sat down at a desk to use. Even laptops were something you sat down to use.

In the latter 00s you could get some very capable phones, but they were limited to mostly aficionados.

And I type this on a very expensive folding phone.

 

[Mobilemofo]

What's happened is they created the computer, and everyone got on board. Then it became heavy with shit, so they turned the fan on..except, now, the shit is everywhere you turn.

For the record, I've been using smartphones exclusively since 2003 except for one period where I bought an Alienware pc, but I never used it alot..

 

[Trilobit]

I miss the 90s and 00s where a computer was something you planned to use and sat down at a desk to use. Even laptops were something you dat down to use.

In the latter 00s you could get some very capable phones, but they were limited to mostly aficionados.

And I type this on a very expensive folding phone.

I agree. You could have most of the day screen-free and then come home in the evening and start the computer. I think it made a nice balance. I think the most important thing is that it allowed people in general more opportunities to think and reflect over things. As things are now we are able to be distracted almost constantly and be fed entertainment nonstop. Some people are even not capable of watching TV without fiddling with their phone simultaneously.

 

[-Minsc-]

We certainly live in a different era. As a teen in the 90's we hand the Encarta Multimedia Encyclopedia to keep us entertained.

Today we roll up memes.

 

[Unknown?]

I'd argue this trend started with the rise of social media. Giving everyone a voice and a soapbox in the town square should have been empowering. Instead we now have a mass dunning-kruger effect where people think they're experts in a particular subject from reading a Wikipedia summary. We have people spreading fake news and false information to manipulate others. We've created toxic eco chambers so destructive that people literally hate others with a slightly different opinion to their own.

Computers themselves and the internet are a net positive to humanity. Social media was where it went downhill. Social media opened Pandora's box and gave birth to the age of ignorance. There is no going back from here.

Idk in the last 5 years I've seen more false information being spread on official news channels than social media tbh. Although manipulation is a huge part of all media and it's sad how they can use all your data to manipulate you on the internet.

 

[dsp]

Technological progress has far outpaced the average person’s capabilities to understand and use such technology. Jobs’ analogy stands, and there is nothing wrong with the bike. Comic speaks for itself.

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness... The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance” - Carl Sagan

Have you ever considered that people genuinely conspire together for rule? They always have. Now is no different. Technological progress hasn't far outpaced anyone, its simply no longer deemed necessary that the majority of people should know anything about it at all.

Like ancient priestly classes who used their knowledge of the sky to make "predictions" that scared the majority of populations into slavery, Silicon Valley now wants to play God and they've got a new sort of magic called AI. You know how people say that private government technology is always 10 to 20 years ahead of what is currently public? Think really really deeply on what that means.

To start, I recognize my thread title is hyperbole.

No hyperbole at all. You're being far too kind or naive.

 

[digital_ghost]

You know how in 1999 The Matrix claimed that 1999 was the pinnacle of human society? At the time I thought it was bullshit and that the line in the movie wouldn't age well... turns out, I believe it's the actual pinnacle you're describing OP. The convergence point where computers stopped being devices for human betterment and started to become devices created for human suffering.

I read somewhere that links a rise in suicides to smart phones.

Which are pocket sized computers basically.

I think in some ways the world would be more productive without them.

This one guy said he spent 8hours a day scrolling on his phone. Thats a full time Job. Ironic that Steve Job's introduced us the smartphone.

 

[dsp]

Idk in the last 5 years I've seen more false information being spread on official news channels than social media tbh. Although manipulation is a huge part of all media and it's sad how they can use all your data to manipulate you on the internet.

Force an endless stream of conflicting information on society delivered through media, so-called social media, memetic warfare, etc. and no one will be able to figure out the truth. Endless divide and conquer mind war that is always present. Attach a person's identity, his money (labor), etc. to a device that forces information warfare into his or her life whether or not they want to engage with it. Make it so that the option is either homelessness or engagement with the machine.

 

[Power Pro]

The Patriots in Metal Gear Solid 2 were right...

Information is too freely available, and there is just too much junk information that is filling the brains of people, which is stagnating mental growth and evolution.

Kojima may have become pretty pretentious recently, but he was a visionary to be sure with that game.

 

[nkarafo]

Well, after some point computers got mainstream. Anything that gets mainstream also becomes the equivalent of a lobotomy.

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

We certainly live in a different era. As a teen in the 90's we hand the Encarta Multimedia Encyclopedia to keep us entertained.

Today we roll up memes.

Anything and everything that had to do with Scholastic approach of books or roms was amazing learning material. Cliche to say but it was fun and educational.

 

[SJRB]

A bicycle for the mind for certain people.

For a large portion of the population it is wasted potential.

 

[thefool]

Jihad, Butlerian: (also see Great Revolt) - ”the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

 

[MarkMe2525]

Jihad, Butlerian: (also see Great Revolt) - ”the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

I just finished Messiah this past weekend. My friend gifted me the whole set 3 weeks ago, and I am now tearing through them before watching the recent films.