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UK ‘mercenaries’ (but actually volunteers) fighting IS in Syria

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liger05

Member
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/22/uk-mercenaries-fighting-islamic-state-terrorist-syria

A former British infantryman who served in Afghanistan is among a growing cohort of Britons joining the ranks of westerners travelling to Syria and Iraq to fight Islamic State (Isis) militants, the Observer has learned.

James Hughes, from Reading, Berkshire, is understood to be in Rojava, northern Syria, helping to defend the beleaguered city of Kobani as a de facto “mercenary” fighting on behalf of the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, the YPG.

According to his Facebook profile, Hughes served in Afghanistan three times and left the army this year after five years’ service. He appears to be fighting Isis forces alongside his friend Jamie Read, from Newmains, north Lanarkshire, whose Facebook page reveals that he trained with the French army. He describes having been involved in fierce gunfights against jihadists last week.

Meanwhile, the Metropolitan police are investigating the whereabouts of a 17-year-old woman from Haringey, north London, who travelled by Eurostar last week and was last seen in Belgium believed to be making her way to Syria, potentially the first known case of a British female fighter joining the struggle against Isis. Officers are looking into whether the teenager, of Kurdish descent, is planning to offer humanitarian assistance or join the ranks of the Kurdish YPJ, or Women’s Defence Units, which is battling Isis forces in Kobani.

The development highlights the dynamic of British nationals fighting one another in the strategic border city. Another two Britons – both from London – have reportedly been killed fighting for Isis in Kobani during the past two days. Abu Abdullah al-Habashi, 21, and Abu Dharda, 20, were thought to have died in the latest ongoing offensive by jihadists to seize the city from the YPG, which has lost more than 300 fighters there. Both Hughes and Read are serving with the YPG, which is backed by US and international coalition air strikes and Kurdish peshmerga forces.

The Britons appear to have been recruited by an American called Jordan Matson on behalf of the “Lions of Rojava”, which is run by the Kurdish YPG movement and whose Facebook page urges people to join and help “send [the] terrorists to hell and save humanity” from Isis.

Matson, who has been wounded in fighting against Isis, confirmed that Hughes and Read were with him, sending an invitation to the Observer: “U can travel to Rojava n meet them.”

On Facebook, Read outlines that he has been in fighting in northern Syria, writing on Thursday that the “shit hit the fan my ass was going 5 to 10 lol”, to which Matson replied: “It’s always interesting the first time you have a bullet fly past your head.”

It appears that Read arrived in the region recently, after undergoing training last month in the Czech Republic. Another Facebook message, on 5 November, states: “It looks like all the hard work has payed off I got my good news, most of you know what i’m doing for those that don’t you will have to wait haha can’t really say on here but all I can say is this time next week i will be living the dream.” A picture shows him alongside Matson in full combat gear.

The Kurdish rights campaigner Mark Campbell said that he had become aware of Read and Hughes enrolling with the YPG in Rojava and of other Kurds in Britain travelling to Syria and Iraq. Aman Banigrad, of London’s Kurdish Community Centre, said: “Some are travelling for humanitarian reasons, but others are going to the frontline with the YPG. People have been killed; one of our members lost a cousin fighting in Kobani two weeks ago.”

Kurdish sources estimate that dozens may have gone from Britain to the Middle East, with an unknown number killed in action. The Home Office said that it does “not hold data on British nationals fighting with the Kurds in Syria/Iraq”. Experts estimate that about 500 Britons have travelled to Syria and Iraq to fight for jihadists.

The developments follow reports from Kobani of westerners taking up arms against the militants, including claims that a number of European biker gangs had ridden to Syria and are helping to bolster the resistance. A Canadian woman – 31-year-old Gill Rosenberg – was recently identified as the first foreign female to join the Kurds battling the Islamic State in Syria.

David Cameron has insisted that there is a fundamental difference between fighting for the Kurds and joining Isis.

Although the Home Office states that taking part in a conflict overseas could be an offence under both criminal and anti-terrorism laws, it clarifies: “UK law makes provisions to deal with different conflicts in different ways – fighting in a foreign war is not automatically an offence but will depend on the nature of the conflict and the individual’s own activities.”

When Cameron was asked in September how volunteers with the Kurdish authorities and Isis fighters could be identified when returning to the UK, he said that “highly trained border staff, police and intelligence services” would be able to discern the difference between Islamic extremists and those fighting them.

The prime minister recently outlined new powers to prevent British jihadis from returning to the UK unless they agreed to strict controls. The UK is also directly arming Kurdish forces fighting Isis militants in Iraq.

Criminal act and to be treated the same as those who travel to fight for IS, Nusra, FSA etc etc?
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Barring the differences, it reminds me of Vietnam veterans joining the Rhodesian forces to fight communist insurgents back in the 60's and 70's.
 
Isn't it incredibly likely that these people are being funded and run by the uk and us? We know that both have publicly stated the intent to train and arm anti-is forces.
 

Buzzman

Banned
Isn't it incredibly likely that these people are being funded and run by the uk and us? We know that both have publicly stated the intent to train and arm anti-is forces.

1 or 2 people are not gonna make that big of a difference. when you have a platoon of 15-20 highly trained elites, then we'll talk
 

Farslain

Member
People publicly announcing this have to be insane or stupid.

After a lot of years in the Royal Marines and now many more working for a couple of different PMC's I can safely say i've never known any professional soldier or professional mercenary idealistically stupid enough to announce where we are or what we are doing. We don't use things like social media for a very good reason.

The danger to self is real, but the danger to family is far worse. Endangering your family is the worst and most unforgiveable thing you can ever do, and as paranoid as it may sound to most people it is a very real fear.

On the legal side, the simple act of picking up and using a firearm in a foreign country can have you labelled a terrorist by UK law, you don't need to harm or kill anyone. The window for legal weapon use is very tiny.

In conclusion, oh dear, I hope it's all worth it in the end.
 

Joni

Member
The difference here is that they're fighting for the side that their government already supports so probably not unless they partake in massacres. Also I don't think FSA fighters are going to be viewed in the same light as IS/Al-Nusra

Western governments also support regular rebels, but they still stop youngsters going to Syria. The first group of people that came back, weren't coming back from fighting for IS. They came back from fighting for regular rebel groups.
 

liger05

Member
The difference here is that they're fighting for the side that their government already supports so probably not unless they partake in massacres. Also I don't think FSA fighters are going to be viewed in the same light as IS/Al-Nusra

As far as I know travelling to Syria to fight for any group including the FSA against Assad will result in imprisonment if you return.
 

Consul

Member
Except they're volunteers, not mercs:

Mr Read said they were helping the Kurdish people in their efforts against the jihadists and were not being paid.

A freelance journalist helping the YPG with their media relations told the BBC the foreign fighters "regard the IS as an international terrorist group and they believe this international fight should not just be fought by the Kurds".

He said the YPG provides weapons, uniforms, food and accommodation but does not pay a salary and the fighters make their own way to Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30172856
 
People publicly announcing this have to be insane or stupid.

After a lot of years in the Royal Marines and now many more working for a couple of different PMC's I can safely say i've never known any professional soldier or professional mercenary idealistically stupid enough to announce where we are or what we are doing. We don't use things like social media for a very good reason.

That might be related to anyone that stupid in that line of work most likely not living long enough.
 
“UK law makes provisions to deal with different conflicts in different ways – fighting in a foreign war is not automatically an offence but will depend on the nature of the conflict and the individual’s own activities.”

So they are not mercenaries and they are not criminals since they are helping fight the IS savages.
 

liger05

Member
So they are not mercenaries and they are not criminals since they are helping fight the IS savages.

But one isn't allowed to join the FSA and fight against IS.

One isn't allowed to fight against Assad yet when people travelled Libya to fight against gaddafi nobody was arrested on return. The whole pick and choose which conflicts British nationals can involve themselves in is laughable.
 
But one isn't allowed to join the FSA and fight against IS.

One isn't allowed to fight against Assad yet when people travelled Libya to fight against gaddafi nobody was arrested on return. The whole pick and choose which conflicts British nationals can involve themselves in is laughable.

I think this is the kind of thing we should "pick and choose" (i.e. just each case on its respective merits, as per that Home Office statement). What else would you suggest, we have a blanket rule saying its ok or not ok to participate in foreign wars? Not all wars are equal, and in a lot of cases it doesn't boil down to "good guys" vs "bad guys".
 

Kabouter

Member
Suppose this isn't unusual in modern history. There were also foreign youngsters volunteering to fight for Finland in the Winter War and for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.
 

Joni

Member
Suppose this isn't unusual in modern history. There were also foreign youngsters volunteering to fight for Finland in the Winter War and for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.
It is even possible to look at World War II where you had quite a big amount of (actual) volunteers that went from the Western occupied areas to the East to fight the Soviet Union together with the Nazi. They believed there was a more dangerous enemy out there, waiting.
 
I think this is the kind of thing we should "pick and choose" (i.e. just each case on its respective merits, as per that Home Office statement). What else would you suggest, we have a blanket rule saying its ok or not ok to participate in foreign wars? Not all wars are equal, and in a lot of cases it doesn't boil down to "good guys" vs "bad guys".

I disagree. Wars spiral out of control and a group which is good one minute is bad the next, groups are absorbed and taken over by others, shared goals do not always mean shared means to accomplish those goals. A blanket ban helps ensure that all know that what they are doing will not be accepted by society. Those who travel internationally to take up arms outside the limits of a nation state should always be labelled as terrorists.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
On the legal side, the simple act of picking up and using a firearm in a foreign country can have you labelled a terrorist by UK law, you don't need to harm or kill anyone. The window for legal weapon use is very tiny.

How are the UK justifying this? I mean, surely Syrian gun laws should apply to anyone picking up a gun in Syria? Doesn't seem right to apply UK law at all.
 

shuri

Banned
I think there was a group of bikers who left to fight ISIL too right? They were from Germany I think. I wonder what happened to them..
 

Jezbollah

Member
How are the UK justifying this? I mean, surely Syrian gun laws should apply to anyone picking up a gun in Syria? Doesn't seem right to apply UK law at all.

They are not justifying anything. If any person is identified as having taken part in any such actions they are prosecuted when they return to the UK.

Other countries in Europe are not punishing them by law, but rather are trying to "rehabilitate" them upon their return.

And lets not kid ourselves here - people from all over the world are going to the middle east to fight for a cause, whatever that is.
 

King_Moc

Banned
In the absence of any government stepping in to do the right thing, this will have to do. They're heroes in my book.

I don't know much about the history, but I do know that the Manic Street Preachers song "If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next" was about Welsh miners joining up to fight against Franco in the Spanish civil war.

Never thought I'd see this mentioned here, lol. Was pretty amazing to see a song get to no.1 and have one of the lyrics be a quote from a Welsh farmer saying "If I can shoot rabbits, then I can shoot fascists". Top stuff.
 

Joni

Member
They are not justifying anything. If any person is identified as having taken part in any such actions they are prosecuted when they return to the UK.

Other countries in Europe are not punishing them by law, but rather are trying to "rehabilitate" them upon their return.

And lets not kid ourselves here - people from all over the world are going to the middle east to fight for a cause, whatever that is.
Belgium is also punishing by law, they are targetting both recruiters and members for being part of a terrorist organisation.
 
I disagree. Wars spiral out of control and a group which is good one minute is bad the next, groups are absorbed and taken over by others, shared goals do not always mean shared means to accomplish those goals. A blanket ban helps ensure that all know that what they are doing will not be accepted by society. Those who travel internationally to take up arms outside the limits of a nation state should always be labelled as terrorists.

I don't think we're disagreeing all that much. The bolded is essentially what I was saying, and why we should judge each case on its merits.

Never thought I'd see this mentioned here, lol. Was pretty amazing to see a song get to no.1 and have one of the lyrics be a quote from a Welsh farmer saying "If I can shoot rabbits, then I can shoot fascists". Top stuff.

That particular lyric made it all the more ironic when the BNP tried to co-opt the song a few years ago for their adverts!

It's also the UK number one with the longest title (according to a pub quiz I went to a few years ago). themoreyouknow.jpg
 
I disagree. Wars spiral out of control and a group which is good one minute is bad the next, groups are absorbed and taken over by others, shared goals do not always mean shared means to accomplish those goals. A blanket ban helps ensure that all know that what they are doing will not be accepted by society. Those who travel internationally to take up arms outside the limits of a nation state should always be labelled as terrorists.

They're terrorists for wanting to help a hunted group of innocents defend themselves from a growing terrorist threat...? If the government won't do anything, I think others should be allowed. Now, if they went to fight with ISIS, that's a different story. If I had experience in the military, I would go over there and fight as well.
 

King_Moc

Banned
That particular lyric made it all the more ironic when the BNP tried to co-opt the song a few years ago for their adverts!

It's also the UK number one with the longest title (according to a pub quiz I went to a few years ago). themoreyouknow.jpg

Yup, msp threatened legal action. They also had to deny Warchild the right to use it, on account of it being a pro-game song.

A few beat it to the song title length. Earliest one is 'San Francisco (be sure to wear some flowers in your hair) from the sixties. Tolerate is level with Timmy Malletts Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini.
 

Joni

Member
They're terrorists for wanting to help a hunted group of innocents defend themselves from a growing terrorist threat...? If the government won't do anything, I think others should be allowed. Now, if they went to fight with ISIS, that's a different story. If I had experience in the military, I would go over there and fight as well.
The groups they could join, are all at war with the government of Syria.
 
Yup, msp threatened legal action. They also had to deny Warchild the right to use it, on account of it being a pro-game song.

A few beat it to the song title length. Earliest one is 'San Francisco (be sure to wear some flowers in your hair) from the sixties. Tolerate is level with Timmy Malletts Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini.

Damn, you've definitely bested me in Manics knowledge, as well as UK singles (I've been regurgitating that Tolerate factoid for ages, whoops). You can be on my pub quiz team anytime.

Getting a tad off-topic now though. I don't think Timmy Mallet has any place in this thread!
 

Farslain

Member
How are the UK justifying this? I mean, surely Syrian gun laws should apply to anyone picking up a gun in Syria? Doesn't seem right to apply UK law at all.

If you are a UK citizen they apply UK law to you, if you wish to bear arms for a foreign power legally you need to seek citizenship with them.

In my opinion I think the law has more pros than cons. For example not everyone who steps off a plane is immediately arrested and prosecuted, people having fun in eastern Europe, more relaxed central European countries, Ireland and America have nothing to fear.

Those chosing to fight a war of their own free will are breaking the law.

You ask how the law is justifiable, the reality of a situation of a society without laws such as this is far worse, we'd still be living in the wild west. From a government and political stand point this law does two important things, the people cutting off heads and shooting people are an easy no nonsense situation to deal with and secondly this is the ultimate arse covering for any political or media attention. Regardless of whatever side people go to fight on, the government can safely say they don't agree with these actions and infact the individual is breaking the law.

War is shit, shooting at and killing people even more so and it comes with too high a cost, if that gives any perspective on my point of view and opinion on any law that helps keep people from fighting.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
If you are a UK citizen they apply UK law to you, if you wish to bear arms for a foreign power legally you need to seek citizenship with them.

In my opinion I think the law has more pros than cons. For example not everyone who steps off a plane is immediately arrested and prosecuted, people having fun in eastern Europe, more relaxed central European countries, Ireland and America have nothing to fear.

Those chosing to fight a war of their own free will are breaking the law.

You ask how the law is justifiable, the reality of a situation of a society without laws such as this is far worse, we'd still be living in the wild west. From a government and political stand point this law does two important things, the people cutting off heads and shooting people are an easy no nonsense situation to deal with and secondly this is the ultimate arse covering for any political or media attention. Regardless of whatever side people go to fight on, the government can safely say they don't agree with these actions and infact the individual is breaking the law.

War is shit, shooting at and killing people even more so and it comes with too high a cost, if that gives any perspective on my point of view and opinion on any law that helps keep people from fighting.

A society with laws is one thing. A society that applies their laws outside of their actual jurisdiction another.
Especially if it's an arbitrary law that only applies when they feel like applying it.
So no, i don't think a government should have that authority to police it's citizens outside of their jurisdiction. And if they do it anyway it should be a blanket law that applied equally to everyone.
 

Neo C.

Member
I don't want to open a new thread, but this graph is somewhat related...

This pic shows from where IS fighters are coming from:
image-782535-galleryV9-ltgv.jpg


Nice to see some Britons fighting the IS, but there are also around 500 Britons fighting for the IS (as written in the article).
 

Bazza

Member
No problem with this, reminds me of the story a few weeks ago about the Dutch and German biker gangs going over to help against ISIS.
 
I don't want to open a new thread, but this graph is somewhat related...

This pic shows from where IS fighters are coming from:
image-782535-galleryV9-ltgv.jpg


Nice to see some Britons fighting the IS, but there are also around 500 Britons fighting for the IS (as written in the article).

This map shows people fighting for ISIS.
 

Arizato

Member
huh, how did I miss that

image.php



On a more serious note though I find it so incredibly frightening that people in peaceful countries go to fight for IS. Why would you do that?

EDIT: Not that I'd consider joining IS a good thing no matter where you are from, of course.
 

liger05

Member
On a more serious note though I find it so incredibly frightening that people in peaceful countries go to fight for IS. Why would you do that?


The religion tells Muslims they should help there brethren in need.
 
On a more serious note though I find it so incredibly frightening that people in peaceful countries go to fight for IS. Why would you do that?

I can understand how people living in the middle east who have never been to a western country might believe the anti-western propaganda which is spouted by members of the IS but it takes a special kind of person to believe in it when you have empirical proof all around you that it is not true.
 

zeemumu

Member
Couldn't they just join the actual military and get to do the same thing but actually get rewarded for their work?
 

Mesousa

Banned
The religion tells Muslims they should help there brethren in need.

But funny enough this only really applies when its Arabs.

South Asian and Arab muslims don't give two shits about African and east Asian Muslims experiencing shit from other muslims and non muslims.
 
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