Support NeoGAF

[ultratruman]

Home Secretary Amber Rudd's speech to the Conservative Party conference on foreign workers is being treated as a "hate incident" by police.

In her speech in October 2016 the Tory minister proposed tougher rules on foreign workers to stop immigrants coming to the UK "taking jobs British people could do".

Her comments were reported to West Midlands Police by Joshua Silver, a physics professor at the University of Oxford, according to The Times.

Police have now written to Mr Silver stating the incident "has been recorded in line with the National Police Chiefs' Council manual as a non-crime hate incident".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rs-police-tory-party-conference-a7523626.html

News is just breaking now, the speech in question was about how companies should be required to have lists of foreign workers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561035

 

[Volimar]

I'm a little fuzzy on this. What are the consequences of such a declaration?

 

[kami_sama]

Not even the police is having any of their shit, damn.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Oh, I like it.

 

[Tak3n]

Worth noting, the police said, no law has been broken, they received 'one' complaint... so they looked at it and had to log it, they chose to log it as a hate incident....

Slow news day I reckon

 

[Tak3n]

I'm a little fuzzy on this. What are the consequences of such a declaration?

Nothing, they received one complaint, they investigated, found no law was broken.... but because of the complaint they had to list it as a hate incident

 

[theaface]

I'm a little fuzzy on this. What are the consequences of such a declaration?

Nothing, as it's already been deemed non-criminal. We can just enjoy that it in the eyes of the police, it's been officially classified for exactly what it is.

 

[MisterFalcon]

You'd think the police had learned from their Channel 4 fiasco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under...the_police_and_the_CPS.3B_Ofcom.2C_libel_case

 

[Tak3n]

The guy who made the complaint is on Radio 5 right now...he came to the conclusion that ti was a hate crime, and disagrees with the police, claims he is not the one wasting police time, but Amber Rudd is as she is doing hate crime

and he is now taking legal advice

 

[Maledict]

What was his name?

And stuff like this really annoys me. Hate crime is a real thing, and crap like this just devalues it and feeds into the 'PC culture gone mad' syndrome. It helps no-one.

 

[Tak3n]

What was his name?

And stuff like this really annoys me. Hate crime is a real thing, and crap like this just devalues it and feeds into the 'PC culture gone mad' syndrome. It helps no-one.

he is an Oxford University professor and he came across as a complete dick head (Joshua Silver)

 

[SuperBowser]

What was his name?

And stuff like this really annoys me. Hate crime is a real thing, and crap like this just devalues it and feeds into the 'PC culture gone mad' syndrome. It helps no-one.

Yeah, I guess a home secretary suggesting foreigners are stealing jobs and be placed on special lists should be ignored. Silly immigrants should quit whining.

 

[ultratruman]

Yeah, I guess a home secretary suggesting foreigners are stealing jobs and be placed on special lists should be ignored. Silly immigrants should quit whining.

Meanwhile, people are sent to jail for tweets.

 

[haxamin]

Oh please

 

[Tak3n]

Yeah, I guess a home secretary suggesting foreigners are stealing jobs and be placed on special lists should be ignored. Silly immigrants should quit whining.

The method behind it was to try and show which companies hire predominately foreign workers...

Daft policy confirmed, hate crime...far from it

 

[Boney]

Non crime? Bullshit. People need to put her and the party on blast for taking advantage of the political climate in such an irresponsible fashion.

 

[theaface]

The method behind it as try to show which companies hire predominately foreign workers...

Daft policy confirmed, hate crime...far from it

Crime? One could argue for and against. Personally I'm not schooled up enough on the law in this regard. Hate speech/incident though? Absolutely. What is it if not that? Singling out firms for scrutiny because they hire people who are foreign? It's madness to think it, let alone say it.

The litmus test would be to swap the word 'foreign' with any other minority grouping (e.g. gay, black, disabled, Jewish, Muslim, old, trans, etc.) Does it sound like hate speech? There you go.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

The method behind it was to try and show which companies hire predominately foreign workers...

Daft policy confirmed, hate crime...far from it

Aren't they making a delineation between "hate crime" and "non-crime hate incident" though?

I tire of the notion that anything short of outright violence needs to essentially be ignored lest we "cheapen" the meaning of "hate." Acknowledging that the ol' "foreigners are taking our jobs" line always boils down to worthless xenophobia is to acknowledge reality—good on them for doing so.

EDIT: This desire to discourage calling out this stuff (in turn, normalizing it and allowing it to spread) is cancerous. What is the thought process behind that?

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

The method behind it was to try and show which companies hire predominately foreign workers...

Daft policy confirmed, hate crime...far from it

Making information about people freely available based purely on their race, country of origin or cultural background is shifty as fuck, I'd consider that a hate crime or at the very least assisting those who'd go on to commit hate crimes with that information.

But that's just who the Tory party's looking to recruit these days so that's hardly surprising.

 

[norinrad]

Is she crying in the above picture?

 

[Tak3n]

Making information about people freely available based purely on their race, country of origin or cultural background is shifty as fuck, I'd consider that a hate crime or at the very least assisting those who'd go on to commit hate crimes with that information.

But that's just who the Tory party's looking to recruit these days so that's hardly surprising.

I agree shitty, but they were playing to the room/supporters.... I am not trying to gloss over it.... but the reality is we are only hearing about this because on the complaint.... she rightly got derided at the time for the idea....which I am guessing was shelved...

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

I agree shitty, but they were playing to the room/supporters.... I am not trying to gloss over it.... but the reality is we are only hearing about this because on the complaint.... she rightly got derided at the time for the idea....which I am guessing was shelved...

'Playing to the room' doesn't make it any less repugnant, it just means the room was full of likeminded shits. Not quite sure what you're getting at with us only hearing about this because of the complaint? You said yourself, the public heard about it and derided it at the time it happened.

 

[Tak3n]

'Playing to the room' doesn't make it any less repugnant, it just means the room was full of likeminded shits. Not quite sure what you're getting at with us only hearing about this because of the complaint? You said yourself, the public heard about it and derided it at the time it happened.

Just meant it was done, it has just reared it's head again because of the complaint

 

[autumnleaf]

stop immigrants coming to the UK “taking jobs British people could do”

The problem of course is those British people who could do those jobs don't want to.

 

[CyclopsRock]

This is absolutely insane. I think it was a bad idea for a policy (though the policy put forward isn't actually the same as it was typically reported - it was never about listing foreign employees but listing the percentage of foreign employees) but the idea that it was a "hate speech" is ludicrous.

 

[Audioboxer]

The guy who made the complaint is on Radio 5 right now...he came to the conclusion that ti was a hate crime, and disagrees with the police, claims he is not the one wasting police time, but Amber Rudd is as she is doing hate crime

and he is now taking legal advice

What was his name?

And stuff like this really annoys me. Hate crime is a real thing, and crap like this just devalues it and feeds into the 'PC culture gone mad' syndrome. It helps no-one.

he is an Oxford University professor and he came across as a complete dick head (Joshua Silver)

As much as I've argued with you guys elsewhere on other topics I kind of have to agree here. A public dressing down for these remarks is necessary, but not insisted wasting of the police forces time.

I accept hate speech laws can have a place, even if I'm pro free speech, but there comes a point where people are trying to turn the police into thought-crime morality stooges. Let them do their job.

This is absolutely insane. I think it was a bad idea for a policy (though the policy put forward isn't actually the same as it was typically reported - it was never about listing foreign employees but listing the percentage of foreign employees) but the idea that it was a "hate speech" is ludicrous.

Pretty much. Far more hate filled garbage out there than this ignorant hogwash. Beat shitty ideas like this with better ones, and some public dressing down, not insisted authoritarian force.

 

[KurtSloane]

The problem of course is those British people who could do those jobs don't want to.

Proof please!

See this nonsense rolled out all the time, funny how people argue about generalising immigrants make plenty of generalising statements themselves.


Still not learning why the brexit vote was lost.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

She's a douche and what she said is wholly irresponsible and I doubt she believes it but you can't convict someone for something like this, her views just need to be challenged and she should apologise.

It doesn't matter what she says. She's said it and the more 'racially aggravated' Tory supports heard it loud and clear and any 'yeah, I was wrong' is just 'PC culture' cracking down in an Orwellian fashion and you lose no voters over that. Its really the tactic of saying horrible shit, then appeasing the middle ground but there's already a 'wink wink, nudge nudge' to a racist voter base.

Proof please!

See this nonsense rolled out all the time, funny how people argue about generalising immigrants make plenty of generalising statements themselves.

Still not learning why the brexit vote was lost.

Well, in all fairness given that employment for British people is seeing record unemployment the whole idea of immigrants taking jobs is pretty facile anyway.

Migrants are also twice as likely to create jobs.

There is also no credible evidence its harmed pay.

The idea that its jobs British people wont due is, admittedly, purely anecdotal but I've known people who've worked at job centers and they say people are incredibly quick to say they wont do either factory work or picking in the fields and these jobs are dominated by immigrants. Its deductive reasoning but there we are.

Also, it has been learnt. The Brexit vote was lost because people are incredibly ill-informed, anti-establishment and have faced years of scapegoating and fear-mongering of very specific groups.

 

[Halph n Halph]

The problem of course is those British people who could do those jobs don't want to.

Could you offer any evidence to support this ?

 

[Scotracer]

Could you offer any evidence to support this ?

It's well recognised that jobs like seasonal fruit pickers and other highly manual jobs that pay minimum wage, British people just don't want. There was a long debate on it on LBC a few months back from farmers/growers that just couldn't get British-nationals to actually do the work.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The guy who made the complaint is on Radio 5 right now...he came to the conclusion that ti was a hate crime, and disagrees with the police, claims he is not the one wasting police time, but Amber Rudd is as she is doing hate crime

and he is now taking legal advice

Interesting perpective to think that criminals are "wasting police time"

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

Also, it has been learnt. The Brexit vote was lost because people are incredibly ill-informed, anti-establishment and have faced years of scapegoating and fear-mongering of very specific groups.

This. Take away every single lie told, every bit of baseless fearmongering presented by both sides of the debate and tell me which way the vote would have gone.

 

[Joni]

Pretty much. Far more hate filled garbage out there than this ignorant hogwash. Beat shitty ideas like this with better ones, and some public dressing down, not insisted authoritarian force.

It is however also based on location. You have bigger sexists out there than Donald Trump but he is capable of a lot more damage through his position. It is the same here. If you let the big guys get away with it, normal people won't obey either.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

It's well recognised that jobs like seasonal fruit pickers and other highly manual jobs that pay minimum wage, British people just don't want. There was a long debate on it on LBC a few months back from farmers/growers that just couldn't get British-nationals to actually do the work.

It's because these jobs used to pay more than minimum wage. As they should - they're strenuous, uncomfortable, have absurdly long hours, but are ultimately temporary and have zero prospects. I did it for a few months before I went to university, and I can say for sure the money was the only reason I did it.

 

[Audioboxer]

It is however also based on location. You have bigger sexists out there than Donald Trump but he is capable of a lot more damage through his position. It is the same here. If you let the big guys get away with it, normal people won't obey either.

Get away with what, thought crime/wrong-think?

The path of good intentions can certainly end up landing you in a totalitarian/authoritarian state where we jail people for holding the wrong beliefs. If anyone wants to see how well that goes, look to some nations around the world. I don't see anyone in the UK or US packing their bags and jetting off to live in some of these places because they truly think it must be great to live under such speech code/belief punishment systems. Free speech is always lauded as amazing when it conforms to speech you like/enjoy/believe, but terrible when it's not something you like/believe. That's not how it works, nor how it should be protected. Finally, yes, speech has consequences, but turning the dial to 11 as a consequence every time someone says something questionable is no better than places in the world that jail/fine for just about anything problematic. Bad ideas are beaten by better ideas, or at least being questioned/mocked/ridiculed/satirised in 95% of situations. Not asking the State to come in and act like your mum or dad disciplining your brother/sister because they said something mean to you.

It's as I said, beat shitty ideas with better ones. Keep an eye on people who espouse nonsense, sure, but it should take serious threats or a call for violence to actually really have law enforcement slapping handcuffs around someone's wrists. It's why I can somewhat support the principal behind hate speech laws, but more often than not the actual execution of it is terrible and an affront to free speech. It should be an extension of the idea of credible threats, not used to silence people or threaten state/police intervention for simply having shitty ideas/beliefs. I find tons of ideas and beliefs in life shitty, but I don't go around like a maniac asking for everyone to be silent and/or conform to what I think. Trying to get the police/state to do that for you is even more insane.

 

[autumnleaf]

Proof please!

See this nonsense rolled out all the time, funny how people argue about generalising immigrants make plenty of generalising statements themselves.


Still not learning why the brexit vote was lost.

I'm from the North of England I've seen it plenty.

But keep blaming the immigrants that make up a fraction of the population for all the countries woes.

 

[Halph n Halph]

It's well recognised that jobs like seasonal fruit pickers and other highly manual jobs that pay minimum wage, British people just don't want. There was a long debate on it on LBC a few months back from farmers/growers that just couldn't get British-nationals to actually do the work.

If there was no option other than British workers they would have to offer a wage good enough to attract British workers . What incentive do they have to do that though when they can work immigrants like pit ponies for a pittance of pay.

 

[system11]

What was his name?

And stuff like this really annoys me. Hate crime is a real thing, and crap like this just devalues it and feeds into the 'PC culture gone mad' syndrome. It helps no-one.

Enshrining this idiocy in law was a significant mistake. Of course Amber Rudd really is in an ideal position to do something about it, you'd have thought. Here's the core problem:

Hate incident: "any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someone’s prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender".

Hate crime: "Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person’s race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender."

You'll note that that basically anyone can call one out purely based on their own perception of an event they may not even be involved in. In fact they're loose enough that I could probably raise this thread as a hate incident because I perceive that it was only posted because Amber Rudd is female.

It doesn't matter that it would be a completely insane claim, it only matters that I claim to perceive it as such.

And that's why "hate" laws in the UK are completely insane and wasting an impossible about of police time dealing with a shopping list of imagined slights, this is where the claimed rise in hate crime comes from.

 

[system11]

Making information about people freely available based purely on their race, country of origin or cultural background is shifty as fuck, I'd consider that a hate crime or at the very least assisting those who'd go on to commit hate crimes with that information.

But that's just who the Tory party's looking to recruit these days so that's hardly surprising.

She never actually said they should make such information available. It was that they should report what percentage of employees were not British. No more, no less. It was then widely misreported as 'publish a list of employees who are not British'.

 

[Guileless]

This is why right wing parties are surging. If you can't even discuss immigration restrictions in polite society, people are going to hold their nose and vote for the only parties who do.

 

[TimmmV]

Hate crime: "Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender."
...
And that's why "hate" laws in the UK are completely insane and wasting an impossible about of police time dealing with a shopping list of imagined slights, this is where the claimed rise in hate crime comes from.

But from your own definition there, the incident still has to be considered a crime to be treated as a hate crime - so wouldn't the police be dealing with it anyway? The extra investigation would be on determining whether the crime was motivated by being a part of the demographics you listed

 

[CyclopsRock]

As far as I can see, Rudd made this policy announcement, it went down like a bucket of cold sick and got almost immediately U-turned. Isn't that exactly how it's supposed to work?

 

[s_mirage]

The guy who made the complaint, Professor Joshua Silver, was on Daily Politics and came across really badly. He appeared unprepared for Andrew Neil's questions, and admitted that he hadn't even heard the speech, only read transcripts and saw people's reactions.

 

[Audioboxer]

This is why right wing parties are surging. If you can't even discuss immigration restrictions in polite society, people are going to hold their nose and vote for the only parties who do.

Partly, but it's mostly because of what the left wing parties are saying, or in many cases aren't. The rights rhetoric hasn't really changed, it's just getting more sympathy as the left eats itself and careers off a cliff.

The guy who made the complaint, Professor Joshua Silver, was on Daily Politics and came across really badly. He appeared unprepared for Andrew Neil's questions, and admitted that he hadn't even heard the speech, only read transcripts and saw people's reactions.

If that is true, smh. The height of virtue signaling. That term gets used far too often by the right to attempt to shut down/censor legitimate concerns on the left, but there are times there is no other way to describe lunacy than to call it that. If you don't use your own brain and attempt to think objectively but instead just rely on other people's reactions, you lose your individualism and become a pawn to an ideology war. That is also part of what the left is doing to eat itself. People not willing to put in the hard work and time to actually discuss complex or hard topics and instead just want to reply with "omg terrible" in the wake of others going "omg terrible". Come to your own conclusions and get engaged instead of letting others do your thinking for you. It takes time and effort, but hey, trying to resolve the most complex political and social issues in the world take time and effort. Not to mention it can be incredibly messy, humbling and you may occasionally get things wrong. Pride isn't going to get anyone far, nor is arrogance.

Without a doubt, there is far too many career politicians and those who are arguably unfit to call themselves politicians, but the way to defeat them is to try and challenge them and help others see through their shite. Not act like children in a temper tantrum that the bad men or women are annoying you so pls, police or state, get them. I'm not really all that optimistic or pleased about the future we are currently facing, but I can assure everyone a future even somewhat resembling a police state is not progression for a supposedly free and open society.

I mean there has been one or two corkers recorded

On 20 April 2010, police arrested Dale McAlpine, a Christian preacher, of Workington in Cumbria, for saying that homosexual conduct was a sin. On 14 May 2010, the Crown decided not to prosecute McAlpine.[11] Later still the police apologised to McAlpine for arresting him at all, and paid him several thousand pounds compensation.[12]

On 2 September 2006, Stephen Green was arrested in Cardiff for distributing pamphlets which called sexual activity between members of the same sex a sin. On 28 September 2006, the Crown advised Cardiff Magistrates Court that it would not proceed with the prosecution.[18][19]

On 13 October 2001, Harry Hammond, an evangelist, was arrested and charged under section 5 of the Public Order Act (1986) because he had displayed to people in Bournemouth a large sign bearing the words "Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Stop Homosexuality, Stop Lesbianism, Jesus is Lord". In April 2002, a magistrate convicted Hammond, fined him £300, and ordered him to pay costs of £395.[20][21][22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

Yeah sure, I often find religion "offensive" and biggoted/discriminatory. You don't fine or lockup people like the above though. You challenge/satirise and even mock (as long as no violence/call to violence). Speech like that shouldn't be illegal as it's not infringing on anyone's rights. A preacher isn't the law of the land, it's just someone espousing whatever their personal beliefs are. Until their speech actually calls for violence/terrorism (like some of the ISIS recruiters), it's fair game in an open society. At best they can sometimes be asked to leave a public area for being a public nuisance.

 

[system11]

But from your own definition there, the incident still has to be considered a crime to be treated as a hate crime - so wouldn't the police be dealing with it anyway? The extra investigation would be on determining whether the crime was motivated by being a part of the demographics you listed

Every hate incident has to be initially investigated as if it may be a hate crime. Even when it is decided no crime has been committed and even though it's all based on perception, it's still placed on permanent record.

Genuine gems exist on the record, such as a woman *thinking* she *may* have heard someone say Brexit on the street, she perceived that it may have been aimed at her because she was of Pakistani origin. This is something the police had to spend time with.

The people who wrote this law were well meaning, but it's at the point that anyone can claim anything is racially (etc) motivated because they've personally decided that it was. There's even a case on record from the city I live in, where someone claimed an ebay item being returned to them, was returned because of their ethnicity. It's obviously ridiculous, but because they've claimed it to be so, it is accepted as such.

That's how broken it is.

 

[twobear]

As far as I can see, Rudd made this policy announcement, it went down like a bucket of cold sick and got almost immediately U-turned. Isn't that exactly how it's supposed to work?

The policy actually had majority popular support according to polls. I think it was the fact that it was quickly pointed out to be literally lifted from Mein Kampf that the government got cold feet. I guess there's some bad PR that even a Tory government doesn't think it can shake off.

 

[system11]

The policy actually had majority popular support according to polls. I think it was the fact that it was quickly pointed out to be literally lifted from Mein Kampf that the government got cold feet. I guess there's some bad PR that even a Tory government doesn't think it can shake off.

No, this one is all on the press - they misreported it. You can check for yourself the alarmist headlines of the MSM vs the *actual words and intent* which are all on public record.

Above we can see that this professor has based his complain on things he's heard, which would obviously primarily come from these headlines, he hasn't even bothered to check it was true.

 

[thehypocrite]

I agree shitty, but they were playing to the room/supporters.... I am not trying to gloss over it.... but the reality is we are only hearing about this because on the complaint.... she rightly got derided at the time for the idea....which I am guessing was shelved...

It's not shitty. It's racist as fuck.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

#fuckthetories

I agree shitty, but they were playing to the room/supporters.... I am not trying to gloss over it.... but the reality is we are only hearing about this because on the complaint.... she rightly got derided at the time for the idea....which I am guessing was shelved...

seriously dude

the same could be said about speeches by donald trump

 

[CyclopsRock]

The policy actually had majority popular support according to polls. I think it was the fact that it was quickly pointed out to be literally lifted from Mein Kampf that the government got cold feet. I guess there's some bad PR that even a Tory government doesn't think it can shake off.

Well I think what was reported was pretty much rubbished by most people. Either way, whether it was press, bad polls, a feeling in the water or a really scathing hashtag, that's more or less how politics and democracy is supposed to function; Ideas get punted out there, the popular ones survive, the unpopular ones don't and thus popularity is pursued. I don't think there's much virtue to getting the law involved in that process.