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UN to Investigate Drone Strikes (Plus a relevant memo from Brookings)

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Talon

Member
A United Nations investigation into targeted killings will examine drone strikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia, according to the British lawyer heading the inquiry.

Ben Emmerson QC, a UN special rapporteur, will reveal the full scope of his review which will include checks on military use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in UK operations in Afghanistan, US strikes in Pakistan, as well as in the Sahel region of Africa where the conflict in Mali has erupted. It will also take evidence on Israeli drone attacks in Palestinian territories.

About 20 or 30 strikes – selected as representative of different types of attacks – will be studied to assess the extent of any civilian casualties, the identity of militants targeted and the legality of strikes in countries where the UN has not formally recognised there is a conflict.

The inquiry will report to the UN general assembly in New York this autumn. Depending on its findings, it may recommend further action. Emmerson has previously suggested some drone attacks – particularly those known as "double tap" strikes where rescuers going to the aid of a first blast have become victims of a follow-up strike – could possibly constitute a "war crime".
Link here

Which reminded me of a Brookings Institute memo from earlier this week (that I didn't get a chance to share).

TO: President Obama

FROM: Peter W. Singer and Thomas Wright

Over the past four years, your administration worked hard to rollback one of the signature weapons of the 20th century, the nuclear bomb, which was one of the reasons why you were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Yet during this same period, the United States broke new ground in the use of new and revolutionary military technologies that may well become signature weapons of the 21st century.

There has been a game change in weaponry over the last several years, with a new generation of advanced technology that moves the point of critical human decision, both geographically off the battlefield and also, increasingly, chronologically away from the time of kinetic action. These encompass both physical systems, like unmanned aircraft (a.k.a. “drones”), and a new class of virtual weaponry, malware that can conduct a cyber attack with real world consequences.

The United States has been a leader in driving this revolution. Its military unmanned systems now number more than 8,000 in the air and 12,000 on the ground and are used daily in Afghanistan. The U.S. Cyber Command became operational in 2010 and military spending on cyber operations now measures in the billions of dollars.

At the same time, civilian intelligence agencies are increasingly using these technologies in a series of not-so-covert operations and so-called “secret wars” that have leaked into the press. There have been over 400 drone strikes into places like Pakistan and Yemen. The United States also deployed Stuxnet to sabotage Iranian nuclear development, the world’s first known use of a specially designed cyber weapon.

Such weapons seem advanced, but represent just the beginning. Technologies currently under development are far more effective and more autonomous, and capable of operating in a wider set of circumstances. We are at the onset of a decades-long technological revolution in warfare, comparable to the introduction of mechanization and airpower onto the battlefield or the advent of the atomic bomb.

Recommendation:

You now have an opportunity — and perhaps an obligation — to outline a doctrine that lays out criteria by which the United States will develop, deploy and use these weapons. The goal should be to establish a framework for how the United States believes the evolution of these revolutionary new technologies should proceed. The effort to set the terms of the future debate and create a doctrine for guidance should draw upon past lessons from comparable situations and culminate in a major presidential speech.

What Would the Big Bet Entail?

Armed with a new revolutionary weapon in the 1940s and 1950s, the Truman and Eisenhower administrations engaged in a series of comprehensive reviews to understand better the technology, its best doctrine of use, and likely impact on geopolitics and the direction of U.S. foreign policy. These doctrines were not binding for all time. Nor did they solve all the problems of the nuclear age. But, the efforts proved valuable. Setting nuclear doctrine in public molded the strategic environment for the better, not just against adversaries, but also in relationships with allies. The discussions also helped set the terms of the discussion both internationally and domestically, helping to introduce Congress and the American public to a world of powerful new technology and important new responsibilities.

Today, the United States should embark upon a similar effort around the new generation of weaponry. This endeavor should answer where it stands on the key questions emerging now and soon to become central, including:

• What are the key strategic goals and ethical guidelines that should drive development of these new technologies? Are there any limitations that should be established or areas of the technology that should be preemptively banned?

• Is current international law sufficient to cover the development and use of these new technologies, or are there emerging gaps that should be filled?

• What is the dividing line between the military vs. civilian intelligence agency use of such technologies? What distinguishes a covert action using these technologies from an act of war?

• What is the proper role for Congress vs. the Executive Branch? When is authorization required for the operational deployment of such technologies versus notification? Does the War Powers Resolution apply even in situations where no U.S. personnel are in harm’s way?

• Are there any key criteria for how the U.S. will similarly evaluate other nations’ use of the technology, including by potential adversaries?

• How does the United States plan to coordinate development and use doctrines with major U.S. allies?

• How does the United States ensure that technologies that limit physical risk to the operator do not numb us to the political consequences of their use?

There is a need to be realistic about what is possible. Much as with the early doctrines on nuclear weapons, the answers to these questions will not be set in stone. Rather, the goal is to set out a presidential level vision that will fill today’s gaps in the discourse and guide tomorrow’s policy.

Accessing the Downside:

There is a counterargument that it is better to say nothing, for fear of tipping off rivals, unilaterally tying U.S. hands, or that no initiative will work unless all other countries sign on, which they won’t.

That is a mistake. The less you say, the more that vacuum will be filled by others, in harmful ways. Having already used the technologies, but without proper elucidation, the precedents the United States sets may be exploited. Other states and non-state actors will use these technologies in far more crude and non-discriminatory ways, but claim to be merely following in U.S. footsteps. Finally, the debate will not stop simply because the United States is not part of it. International organizations will push ahead with investigations and propose new treaties, which, while likely ineffective, will nevertheless isolate the United States and drain our soft power. And on the home front, the original foundations of congressional and public support for many of the covert uses of these technologies could erode as the United States moves further away from 9/11. Indeed, the administration recently won a court case to maintain the veil of semi-silence that surrounds the drone strike program, but the judge described continuing the policy of denial as having an “Alice in Wonderland” feel.

Conclusion:

Beginning this discussion is a modest step with no budget costs, but entails a big bet with enormous advantages over the alternative of remaining silent. You would lay out your vision, helping both to guide internal policy development across multiple agencies as well as assuage genuine concerns at home and abroad. Most importantly, the voice of a respected commander in chief, with a strong expertise in the law, would create the foundations of an international norm, allowing the United States to build a large coalition of the like-minded on these issues, making it easier to identify and isolate those who depart from this norm. It will help maintain U.S. influence over the future of these technologies, even as they proliferate and evolve beyond our control.

By speaking out now, you will not just set the terms of the debate but steer it towards more positive ends. It’s the kind of effort for which leaders win Nobel Peace Prizes, again.
Much more at the link
 

Dead Man

Member
Wow, good stuff. Won't amount to much real action no matter the findings, but at least it is more publicity for the issue.

That IS a great memo.

• Are there any key criteria for how the U.S. will similarly evaluate other nations’ use of the technology, including by potential adversaries?

All you have to do to figure out whether the current policy is good is to imagine what would happen in the same policy was used against people on US soil.
 

WedgeX

Banned
Was watching the Nova special on Drones yesterday, which featured some people from Brookings. Terrifying, the disconnect between killing people and the ease with which it happens.
 

Dead Man

Member
so basically never use it, ever.

Pretty much. But assuming you are being a bit obtuse I don't mean would the US be happy with it. What I mean would the tactic be considered fair play? If even a non US national was targeted within the US by a drone attack, would the US consider that fair or would they launch an attack against whatever country did it?
 
Deaf Ears. The CIA are on drone detail for a reason.
It's not just the CIA, and 'a reason' doesn't automatically equate to a good reason.

Was watching the Nova special on Drones yesterday, which featured some people from Brookings. Terrifying, the disconnect between killing people and the ease with which it happens.
This is a good and terrifying read: http://www.spiegel.de/international...er-war-for-american-drone-pilot-a-872726.html
Particularly:
"Did we just kill a kid?" [Operator]
"Yeah, I guess we killed a kid." [Pilot]
"No, it was a dog." [Operation Commander?]
 
Do people actually think that the US will conform to anything the UN wants?

At this point I'd take raising awareness of this atrocious shit over nothing. Plenty of people are aware of drone strikes sure, but they usually only hear of how effective they are in killing threats. Bringing the innocent lives taken to light will only force people out of their illusions regarding Obama and how much he really regards human life.
 
UN: Drone strikes are war crimes.

US: Make us stop

UN: ....

It's pretty obvious that they are war crimes but might makes right.
 

bjb

Banned
Do people actually think that the US will conform to anything the UN wants?

No absolutely not.

Besides, there's plenty of hardcore liberals (including here on GAF) that are still in denial of the extent and damage of these disgusting attacks. All the while shielding Obama and his complicit administration.
 
Biggest problem I have is the double tap though it'd be nice to have actual info before I judge it. A lot of this info is incomplete due to the secretive nature of it. And possibly the CIA doing it where it maybe should be the DoD.

Otherwise I don't really get the outrage over drone strikes being any different than other attacks which kill civilians, the tech I don't think changes the morality any.
 

Tesseract

Banned
i'm friends with a sensor operator and i honestly think she's got a lot of demons wrapped up in the disconnect between her home and military life. my brother opted out of piloting to work in intelligence developing lasers. i've heard some fucked up shit.
 

way more

Member
Was watching the Nova special on Drones yesterday, which featured some people from Brookings. Terrifying, the disconnect between killing people and the ease with which it happens.

I saw that episode too, it was good stuff.

One thing that caught me off guard was the footage they use of a successful drone strike against a target. The target was a man launching mortars at some off screen US convoy. You could see him placing in rounds and then them shooting off right before the missile strikes and he is obliterated.

30 years ago that one man could launch mortars for hours while soldiers tried to determine his position at which point they would have to send a squad out of kill him all the while more combatants can show up and more fire fights break out and more mortars can be set up. That one man could mean the death of a full convey. Now they can remotely see the guy, blow him up, and keep on moving.

30 years ago the objective would be the same, kill that guy launching mortars at them, but now it can be done faster. I'm not sure that's any worse.


UN: Drone strikes are war crimes.

US: Make us stop

UN: ....

It's pretty obvious that they are war crimes but might makes right.



I think only the "double tap" and callous disregard for civilian death would be war crimes. Killing a person who is literally at that moment shooting at US soldiers with a drone is just killing a enemy soldier with a new tool.
 
I saw that episode too, it was good stuff.

One thing that caught me off guard was the footage they use of a successful drone strike against a target. The target was a man launching mortars at some off screen US convoy. You could see him placing in rounds and then them shooting off right before the missile strikes and he is obliterated.

30 years ago that one man could launch mortars for hours while soldiers tried to determine his position at which point they would have to send a squad out of kill him all the while more combatants can show up and more fire fights break out and more mortars can be set up. That one man could mean the death of a full convey. Now they can remotely see the guy, blow him up, and keep on moving.

30 years ago the objective would be the same, kill that guy launching mortars at them, but now it can be done faster. I'm not sure that's any worse.

Exactly. Its like complaining about how war should be fought with swords and that guns are a war crime. (Which actually was debated, Guns were considered un-christian for a while)

I can see a debate about the CIA doing it or the morality of double tap and even where they are targeted (civilian areas) but the very fact someone in Montana is flying the drone does nothing to its morality to me. Obviously it effects the people that fly it but so does anytype of war or killing
 

kitch9

Banned
No absolutely not.

Besides, there's plenty of hardcore liberals (including here on GAF) that are still in denial of the extent and damage of these disgusting attacks. All the while shielding Obama and his complicit administration.

Would you prefer boots on the ground doing the killing? Collateral damage happens regardless of where the trigger is pulled.

It's a tough subject this one, especially when the enemy is cowardly and thinks nothing of surrounding themselves with human shields of children and women. The terrain is difficult and easy to booby trap so getting to them is difficult.

They will also hide in mosques so they don't get fired upon too.
 

Tesseract

Banned
the simplest truth is that all wars are crimes against humanity. retroactively charging specific people or operations is just bad news for everyone involved right up to the president.
 
Maybe if the residents of these countries didn't shamelessly let terrorists within their midst, the dumb fucks wouldn't get killed in the aftermath.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
If drones were not used, does GAF think a safer method would be used in its stead, or nothing at all?

I'm wondering if anyone can outline an unbiased account of what drones bring to the table and what harm they do.

The idea of an ethical disconnect in and of itself isn't really something that compels me, soldiers can do pretty disgusting things when looking someone in the eye.


Maybe if the residents of these countries didn't shamelessly let terrorists within their midst, the dumb fucks wouldn't get killed in the aftermath.

Dozens of heavily armed men move into your apartment building, the only place you can afford to live. What are your options?
 

Allard

Member
Biggest problem I have is the double tap though it'd be nice to have actual info before I judge it. A lot of this info is incomplete due to the secretive nature of it. And possibly the CIA doing it where it maybe should be the DoD.

Otherwise I don't really get the outrage over drone strikes being any different than other attacks which kill civilians, the tech I don't think changes the morality any.

Yep, don't think drone strikes by themselves are a war crime but I do think the use is an act of war and that how the drones are used should be placed in the equation. But since everything is so secretive in how and why it is used is part of the problem more exposure is necessary.
 

commedieu

Banned
No absolutely not.

Besides, there's plenty of hardcore liberals (including here on GAF) that are still in denial of the extent and damage of these disgusting attacks. All the while shielding Obama and his complicit administration.

I don't think there are any Gaf Liberals that deny Drone attacks damage and kill/target ratio... And I'd imagine you couldn't find plenty. Who are these posters that are the equivalent to bilbo/pctx? This isn't even about generalization, but its just ridiculous to claim that people are complicit about this specific issue. Gaf Liberals don't have the same stick up their woo-hoo's that republicans do on gaf. Remember the debate thread? When obama sucked, everyone admitted it. No one was trying to pretend otherwise. Unlike republican gaf that generally downplays all things at the same time trying to pretend that the majority voice of nutters isn't what the party really is...(when they are the ones making the laws..)

I mean the UN couldn't do anything to stop the republicans whole 10 year long illegal failure of a war, they wont stop this. Awareness will bring pressure on the white house to at least tighten up. But thats all that ever happens with America. She does what she wants.

tumblr_md3rkiyWMY1qlrtq2o1_500.jpg
 

way more

Member
The idea of an ethical disconnect in and of itself isn't really something that compels me, soldiers can do pretty disgusting things when looking someone in the eye.

And it's not really true that there is more disconnect just because it's a robot flying 1,000's of feet above the target.

The pilots are following these targets, the people they interact with, and nearby civilians for days or weeks. They might see the daily routine of a innocent goat herder who just lives in the area as the drone flies overhead waiting for a moment when the intended target is alone. They might identify with civilians of even the target as they watch him shop, eat, talk and play.

It's possible there is less disconnect given the length of time spent watching before the kill.
 

Talon

Member
Pretty sure the use of drone strikes and the number of casualties stemming from them has been the one constant drone of criticism (pun not intended) of this administration by those on the left.

This is from the Brookings Institute, after all.
 

kitch9

Banned
Maybe if the residents of these countries didn't shamelessly let terrorists within their midst, the dumb fucks wouldn't get killed in the aftermath.

The terrorists tend to be the ones with weapons with a penchant of raping the women and stoning those who do not follow their crazy laws....
 
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